Serious Question: Where do you draw the line?

[LineSkiCat14]

https://www.politifact.com/californ...-percent-immigrants-california-welfare-s-exa/

This article sorta refutes the numbers. But it's still a generally large portion, too large. I've seen some say 80%.

 

[funKYcat75]

I guess the children born here of immigrants get help. Answered my own question. Carry on.

 

[buckethead1978]

Why aren’t some of you more upset with the companies/business owners that are using the illegal immigrant labor?

Do you think they are just wanting to coke to the US for some welfare?

 

[-Mav-]

At the Rio Grande, for starters.

 

[mdlUK.1]

Oops, wrong thread

 

[vhcat70]

Well, there was just a national story last month where people were turned away from a restaurant because no one spoke English. So.....

How many were born here? Do you expect visitors from France or Germany to be able to speak English?

 

[vhcat70]

"Although the first German-born settler arrived in 1817, significant German immigration to Louisville did not occur until steamboat travel was possible in the 1830s," the Ullriches wrote. "By 1840, the German population of Louisville was large enough that entire German-speaking neighborhoods existed east of downtown ... Germans had established their own churches, bilingual schools, and kindergartens. By 1850, social and benevolent organizations, such as singing societies, orphans' societies, and a Turnverein (athletic club), were thriving as well."

"But cultural and religious differences between the immigrants and the long-established English-speaking population (Nativists) erupted in the election day riots of August 6, 1855 when Nativists tried to prevent immigrants from voting. At least 22 persons were killed that day, which became known as 'Bloody Monday.' Many German immigrants left Louisville after Bloody Monday ..."

German immigrants were the biggest supporters of the Union in the CW. A gr-gr-grandfather got killed in battle doing just that thing. He had married my gr-gr-grandmother in LV in 1858 even though they lived in Cincy. Steamboats were the trick I suppose.

 

[warrior-cat]

Why aren’t some of you more upset with the companies/business owners that are using the illegal immigrant labor?

Do you think they are just wanting to coke to the US for some welfare?

Should not be more upset, just as upset. Illegally using sub wage labor because they are here illegally should be punished harshly in my book.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

Do undocumented immigrants get welfare, WIC, etc? I don't personally know that answer, but common sense says that they don't.

I don't know if they receive welfare, but I do know their children attend public schools, they use public infrastructure, use the healthcare system, etc. Unless they are paid in such a way as to have local and federal taxes withheld, then they aren't contributing toward the cost of any of those, which creates a drain on those systems.

 

[mdlUK.1]

How many were born here? Do you expect visitors from France or Germany to be able to speak English?

If they want to come live here and become citizens. And I’d feel the same if I wanted to go live in their country. You don’t?

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

I don't know if they receive welfare, but I do know their children attend public schools, they use public infrastructure, use the healthcare system, etc. Unless they are paid in such a way as to have local and federal taxes withheld, then they aren't contributing toward the cost of any of those, which creates a drain on those systems.

Actually, undocumented immigrants pay a sizeable share of federal, state, and local taxes that support the programs and policies you mention above. Upwards of $40B per the Institution of Taxation and Economic Policy.

Interesting blurb from the ITEP publication :

" Undocumented immigrants nationwide pay on average an estimated 8 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes (effective rate). To put this in perspective, the top 1 percent of taxpayers pay an average nationwide effective tax rate of just 5.4 percent"

This is just state +Local, but still rather mindboggling.

For federal taxes, the US is collecting ~ $24B per annum from undocumented workers, including contributions into FICA and SECA which supplements programs they cannot use.

 

[rudd1]

-ITEP is a left leaning think tank...no doubt their numbers are skewed to reach a conclusion. That said...I have no doubt that illegals have helped to prop up SS and such. There is also no doubt that illegals pay alot of sales/usage taxes. However, given that there is a large underground/cash based labor market that is not taxed...its impossible to gauge the positive impact vs. healthcare costs/infrastructure costs/primary & secondary ed. costs and such.

-ultimately...its about control/security. Happy to have immigrants here...they just need to be accounted for...and assimilate.

 

[rudd1]

-once border/process is *secure*. I would like to see folks that have lived here (albeit illegally) and can prove they've paid taxes and been felony free...for a time period(5-10 years) be fast tracked for a green card...no citizenship, however.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

-ITEP is a left leaning think tank...no doubt thier numbers are skewed to reach a conclusion. That said...I have no doubt that illegals have helped to prop up SS and such. There is also no doubt that illegals pay alot of sales/usage taxes. However, given that there is a large underground/cash based labor market that is not taxed...its impossible to gauge the positive impact vs. healthcare costs/infrastructure costs/primary & secondary ed. costs and such.

-ultimately...its about control/security. Happy to have immigrants here...they just need to be accounted for...and assimilate.

CBO comes up with similar numbers as far as gross tax contributions. ITEP's numbers are derived from the IRS and confirmed. They're viewed as a left-leaning think tank because they will, more likely than not, use verified data that helps their arguments.

Agree with the difficulty of assessing the true benefit/burden of undocumented immigrants.

Lastly, just to comment on "assimilate", I'm assuming that means to abide by the laws of the land (unless you feel laws are unjust, then you should legally challenge those laws)

 

[rudd1]

-thats a big part of it.

-economics...embrace property rights, capitalism...with a *dash* of socialism (ss/medicaid/medicare and whatnot)

-culture (western) is important as well...adoption of progressive views of women/gay rights...not practicing clitorectomy or wearing masks in public and such. Im sure you get the gist.

 

[mashburned]

Do undocumented immigrants get welfare, WIC, etc? I don't personally know that answer, but common sense says that they don't.

Undocumented ones can qualify for WIC, and other benefits, but not welfare and medicaid.

I don't know this part, but I would venture to guess it's extremely easy to get full benefits as an undocumented immigrant. As easy as getting fake papers.

I think it's naive to think the system which Americans game every single day, a system that is horribly run, is not taken advantage of by illegals.

 

[Your Favorite Bro]

I think it's pretty funny that some US citizens get their panties in a bunch when it comes to the whole "assimilation" thing, especially in regard to the language. Why does someone speaking another language bother you so damn much? And exactly how does it affect your life?

Like someone said earlier, being able to speak English in America is wildly beneficial. But if someone can somehow live here and go through their day-to-day life speaking 95% Chinese...why does that rile you up so much?

 

[Your Favorite Bro]

How many were born here? Do you expect visitors from France or Germany to be able to speak English?

I would venture to say that most people visiting from Europe can speak serviceable English.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

-thats a big part of it.

-economics...embrace property rights, capitalism...with a *dash* of socialism (ss/medicaid/medicare and whatnot)

-culture (western) is important as well...adoption of progressive views of women/gay rights...not practicing clitorectomy or wearing masks in public and such. Im sure you get the gist.

I get it, but it doesn't make sense. Not sure how an acceptance of capitalism equates to assimilation. Everyone legally participating in commercial activities abides by the same laws, economic ideology has no factor on said participation.

It would be fantastic for all immigrants to adopt progressive views of women/gay rights, but it's obviously not necessary for "assimilation" given vocal opinions against the same rights expressed by natural born citizens. And you seem to be cherry picking which type of genital mutilation is kosher.

 

[kevcat]

Taking in refugees and or helping poor people is a good thing to do but, the world is a big place and there are a lot of poor people with no skills out there who will be living off of the government dime, aka, your dime. How many is more than we can handle? What do we do with those who commit serious crimes in there country and are escaping to avoid prosecution?

We need to stop letting people in, and start sending the ILLEGALS out.

For some reason there are a lot of idiots that don’t know what the word ILLEGAL means.

 

[mashburned]

I get it, but it doesn't make sense. Not sure how an acceptance of capitalism equates to assimilation. Everyone legally participating in commercial activities abides by the same laws, economic ideology has no factor on said participation.

It would be fantastic for all immigrants to adopt progressive views of women/gay rights, but it's obviously not necessary for "assimilation" given vocal opinions against the same rights expressed by natural born citizens. And you seem to be cherry picking which type of genital mutilation is kosher.

Not true. Read about sharia banking.

 

[rudd1]

-thats a big part of it.

-economics...embrace property rights, capitalism...with a *dash* of socialism (ss/medicaid/medicare and whatnot)

-culture (western) is important as well...adoption of progressive views of women/gay rights...not practicing clitorectomy or wearing masks in public and such. Im sure you get the gist.

I get it, but it doesn't make sense. Not sure how an acceptance of capitalism equates to assimilation. Everyone legally participating in commercial activities abides by the same laws, economic ideology has no factor on said participation.

It would be fantastic for all immigrants to adopt progressive views of women/gay rights, but it's obviously not necessary for "assimilation" given vocal opinions against the same rights expressed by natural born citizens. And you seem to be cherry picking which type of genital mutilation is kosher.

-agreed...we have plenty of natural born ********, dont need to import more. We've worked long and hard(still plenty to do) on these issues. No need to import regressive/stone age types to gum up the works

-circumcision and clitorectomy aren't comparable...they're just not. One may be an archaic jewish ritual that made it's way into western medical dogma for a bit because its "hygenic"...the other is undertaken to remove the joy of sex from women...and control them.

-economics is very important in my mind. Sure we should just be able to sell the new folks on the ideology by explaining/exhibiting our brand of free market and its benefits is *the* reason they are coming here...but free stuff is very enticing to poor immigrants, and there are those that will prey on these folks to gain power. Impossible to enforce, I know...but a wish, if you will.

 

[KRJ1975]

As someone who came here legally and followed the process (which was a PITA, BTW,) I think anyone who wants to come here should follow said process. We can't just take everyone - there are way too many people in the world living in unfavorable conditions who would love to be here. We can't make a dent in that problem.

At a bare minimum, I'd start with this;

College education OR marketable skill (vocation, etc.)
No criminal record in home country
No communicable diseases
Probationary period in which immigrant must find employment/residence/etc without gov't assistance
Drug Free

We have enough homeless people here and enough living off the gov't teat. We don't need a bunch more.

 

[Kooky Kats]

Yep... some of these folks are unvaccinated and are carrying new-groovy Polio with them... and as a parent of two kids, I say **** you and GTFOH with that ****.

 

[Henogee1975]

As someone who came here legally and followed the process (which was a PITA, BTW,) I think anyone who wants to come here should follow said process. We can't just take everyone - there are way too many people in the world living in unfavorable conditions who would love to be here. We can't make a dent in that problem.

At a bare minimum, I'd start with this;

College education OR marketable skill (vocation, etc.)
No criminal record in home country
No communicable diseases
Probationary period in which immigrant must find employment/residence/etc without gov't assistance
Drug Free

We have enough homeless people here and enough living off the gov't teat. We don't need a bunch more.

That is exactly correct John, but that is not what the left wants.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I draw the line at so called refugees throwing rocks at the country they allegedly want asylum in and carrying a flag of the country they are supposed seeking asylum from.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Please explain what assimilate means to you. Other may chime in.

It means you accept the American way of life and not try to undermine it. But you already know that.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Do undocumented immigrants get welfare, WIC, etc? I don't personally know that answer, but common sense says that they don't.

Are you serious? Do you even watch the news or read a paper? Good grief man. Open your eyes just a little.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Be nice if people just followed the laws.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

-agreed...we have plenty of natural born ********, dont need to import more. We've worked long and hard(still plenty to do) on these issues. No need to import regressive/stone age types to gum up the works

Disagree on this. No better place to educate the ignorant than in the US. We didn't turn away white racists from Europe whose offspring accepted much more progressive and liberal ideology, don't see the need to turn away racists from other countries. My first hope is that immigrants aren't racist/sexist/xenophobic and/or their home country can shed their ignorance, but if that doesn't happen they shouldn't be turned away.

-circumcision and clitorectomy aren't comparable...they're just not. One may be an archaic jewish ritual that made it's way into western medical dogma for a bit because its "hygenic"...the other is undertaken to remove the joy of sex from women...and control them.

Circumcision was popularized in the west due to laughably bad science, including but not limited to the theory that circumcision would reduce rates of sex out of wedlock and masturbation.

We can argue the motives behind male and female genital mutilation all you want (I'm against both), but in the end both practices are involuntary and unnecessary procedures.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Not true. Read about sharia banking.

Islamic banks in the US do not violate US banking laws. They're much more risk-averse than typical banks and don't charge interest, which isn't mandatory. There are other faith-based financial institutions in the US that have internal guidelines that differentiate them from regular banks.

US institutions, like JPMorgan and Bank of the West, are now offering products that are sharia banking compliant.

 

[Bill Derington]

Disagree on this. No better place to educate the ignorant than in the US. We didn't turn away white racists from Europe whose offspring accepted much more progressive and liberal ideology, don't see the need to turn away racists from other countries. My first hope is that immigrants aren't racist/sexist/xenophobic and/or their home country can shed their ignorance, but if that doesn't happen they shouldn't be turned away.



Circumcision was popularized in the west due to laughably bad science, including but not limited to the theory that circumcision would reduce rates of sex out of wedlock and masturbation.

We can argue the motives behind male and female genital mutilation all you want (I'm against both), but in the end both practices are involuntary and unnecessary procedures.

Do you go out of your way to try and be this naive to prevent from offending people? Jesus Christ, cutting off a females **** is not the same as circumcision. Circumcision doesn't cut the head of your dick off, thats essentially what FGM does. It's simply a way to control women, and is barbaric. Of all things to argue about, being against FGM is something we should all be able to get behind.

 

[roguemocha]

Not attempt to impose or have accepted customs as law that aren't legal or approved by legislatures. Sharia & genital mutilation & washing your feet in sinks come to mind.

Technically speaking, circumcising boys is genital mutilation as well and we do it all the time.

Do undocumented immigrants get welfare, WIC, etc? I don't personally know that answer, but common sense says that they don't.

They for sure get use of the hospitals even though they’ll never pay the bill.

 

[mashburned]

Islamic banks in the US do not violate US banking laws. They're much more risk-averse than typical banks and don't charge interest, which isn't mandatory. There are other faith-based financial institutions in the US that have internal guidelines that differentiate them from regular banks.

US institutions, like JPMorgan and Bank of the West, are now offering products that are sharia banking compliant.

They charge “fees” to fund terrorism.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Do you go out of your way to try and be this naive to prevent from offending people? Jesus Christ, cutting off a females **** is not the same as circumcision. Circumcision doesn't cut the head of your dick off, thats essentially what FGM does. It's simply a way to control women, and is barbaric. Of all things to argue about, being against FGM is something we should all be able to get behind.

Read my post again bub. I'm against all involuntary and unnecessary genital mutilation, nor did I ever defend the pratice of female genital procedures.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

They charge “fees” to fund terrorism.

Yeah, if that's happening in the US the bank is shut down.

 

[rudd1]

Mime,

-*really* don't care what we've done in the past in regards to "European racists"...i wasnt around then. There isn't a ledger somewhere that needs to be balanced.

 

[rudd1]

-wrote a paper in econ about "riba"...25 years ago, im old.

 

[mashburned]

Yeah, if that's happening in the US the bank is shut down.

False. The donations don’t go straight to bin laden bank account.

I’ve read the current articles on this crap, too. It’s a fn joke, and it’s scary, tbh.

 

[KRJ1975]

That is exactly correct John, but that is not what the left wants.

But according to most posters here, I'm a communist mulsim left wing globalist - but I don't want open borders. How does that reconcile?