Serious Question: Where do you draw the line?

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anon_l8pbkn96tg3j6

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I really wish people followed the rules, but they don't and our legal immigration policies also create weird incentives. The wall would have a positive effect on the illegal side, as would ending the drug war. Birthright citizenship, H1Bs, and student visas were all created with good intentions, but seem broken today . . . and I'm not sure how we get simple enforceable laws without abused loopholes.
 
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bkingUK

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Ideally, everyone woild enter legally and we’d admit exactly the number that would optimize economic and scientific progress. But then there is the reality of refugees being pushed towards a better life. I don’t know the answer. I’d think many could be useful. But as humans, they still deserve a certain level of respect. They aren’t criminals or trash. They just want a better life. This isn’t 1830. They need help and certainly don’t need to be treated as invaders when it’s not accurate.
 
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Phil_The_Music2

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Ideally, everyone woild enter legally and we’d admit exactly the number that would optimize economic and scientific progress. But then there is the reality of refugees being pushed towards a better life. I don’t know the answer. I’d think many could be useful. But as humans, they still deserve a certain level of respect. They aren’t criminals or trash. They just want a better life. This isn’t 1830. They need help and certainly don’t need to be treated as invaders when it’s not accurate.
Though I'm sure we disagree on how immigration policy should be handled, I understand how you feel in your post. I don't know the answer either. I worry about how many people this country can physically sustain. I feel bad for people from 3rd world countries who just want a better life. I agree they are human too and shouldn't be treated like trash. I just don't think we can help everyone when we ourselves are trillions in debt. I do get tired of being called a bigot though for feeling that way. Ultimately I think the true answer lies in other countries changing their cultures to one that brings about the same freedoms we enjoy. Somehow the people of these other countries are going to have rise up and make changes. What we have here didn't come free. We had to fight some major wars and many lives were lost to get us and keep us where we are. Others are going to have to do the same if they want what we have.
 

Mime-Is-Money

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False. The donations don’t go straight to bin laden bank account.

I’ve read the current articles on this crap, too. It’s a fn joke, and it’s scary, tbh.

Ah, sounds like you're definitely on top of it and the US is totally OK if banks fund terrorism as long as they're Islamic compliant.
 

warrior-cat

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Ideally, everyone woild enter legally and we’d admit exactly the number that would optimize economic and scientific progress. But then there is the reality of refugees being pushed towards a better life. I don’t know the answer. I’d think many could be useful. But as humans, they still deserve a certain level of respect. They aren’t criminals or trash. They just want a better life. This isn’t 1830. They need help and certainly don’t need to be treated as invaders when it’s not accurate.
Still, the question remains, where do "You" draw the line? How many are too many to handle economically? We have an obligation to help people but, there is only so much you can do. There was a video a year or so back where a guy was using bubble gum balls in big jars to sum up the problem and he did quite well explaining it. It boiled down to the only way we could successfully help the most people in the world is by educating them in their own countries to help themselves.
 

CrittendenWildcat

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When you trek 2,000 miles across a country offering you asylum to seek "asylum" in the US, you are obviously not actually seeking asylum.

And when you bum-rush the border, be glad those guarding the border only fired tear gas at you.

America is a great nation. If your country is not great, instead of working to get out of your country and into our country, work to make your country more like ours.
 
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Deeeefense

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The wall would have a positive effect on the illegal side, as would ending the drug war.

The SW boarder is 1900 miles long. Can you imagine building a wall from Lexington Kentucky to Los Angeles? That's about the same distance. Even if you built such a wall you would still need human observers or those seeking entry would easily defeat the wall. There is a reason prisons have guard towers in addition to walls, without the guard towers the prisons would easily find freedom.

There are much more efficient and effective way to monitor the boarder. Aerial surveillance, including drones, satellites, cameras, but you still have to have adequate boarder patrol personnel. The last three administrations have focused on adding these resources and this has been effective. The net flow of immigrants is only a fraction of what it once way and some reports say it's a net zero right now (those entering minus those leaving) There is room to do more so it makes sense to continue to add resources that actually work, as necessary, but a physical wall is for the most part an expensive waste of money.
 

bkingUK

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Still, the question remains, where do "You" draw the line? How many are too many to handle economically? We have an obligation to help people but, there is only so much you can do. There was a video a year or so back where a guy was using bubble gum balls in big jars to sum up the problem and he did quite well explaining it. It boiled down to the only way we could successfully help the most people in the world is by educating them in their own countries to help themselves.

Well, the simple view is that no one should break the law and the border is concrete, but I don’t find that realistic. I don’t think drawing a line is realistic either because the line is circumstantial and complicated.

If I’m president I’d first assess what the economy needs. Are there companies who need low wage workers and what is the effect of hiring them?

Based on that, it’s a matter who is let granted access and under what parameters. I don’t think it’s necessarily unreasonable to consider the people in the caravan for acceptance and job placement. Hell, they had the drive of walking over countries to get here. Meanwhile, low wage employers across the US can’t find workers. So, I see a solution there.
 

warrior-cat

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The SW boarder is 1900 miles long. Can you imagine building a wall from Lexington Kentucky to Los Angeles? That's about the same distance. Even if you built such a wall you would still need human observers or those seeking entry would easily defeat the wall. There is a reason prisons have guard towers in addition to walls, without the guard towers the prisons would easily find freedom.

There are much more efficient and effective way to monitor the boarder. Aerial surveillance, including drones, satellites, cameras, but you still have to have adequate boarder patrol personnel. The last three administrations have focused on adding these resources and this has been effective. The net flow of immigrants is only a fraction of what it once way and some reports say it's a net zero right now (those entering minus those leaving) There is room to do more so it makes sense to continue to add resources that actually work, as necessary, but a physical wall is for the most part an expensive waste of money.
There is also a cheaper way than the wall. Bring our troops back from countries where they are not wanted and from countries who are not at least paying for us to be there. Take those troops and set up permanent FOB's in states that border Mexico, put up concertina wire (Like already seen) and rotate these units to where they spend at least 6 months before being relieved by the next unit. The rotations would be far and few between for most and we would not be spending anywhere near as much money to rotate units there as we do over seas.
 

vhcat70

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There are much more efficient and effective way to monitor the boarder. Aerial surveillance, including drones, satellites, cameras, but you still have to have adequate boarder patrol personnel. The last three administrations have focused on adding these resources and this has been effective. .
So your solution is to tear down the border wall/fence around SD where all these migrants are & instead have added forces at the border to physically stop them? And won't complain when some are injured or die? And think it's Ok for some of the US people stopping them to be injured or killed?

The Great Wall of China is 13K+ miles long. Personally. I'd start with 20' high, 10' deep electrified razor of wire & go from there.
 
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bkingUK

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What’s the cost benefit analysis on stationing military on the US border. Do costs even outweighs the benefits?
 

mashburned

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Drones, cameras, tech, etc are all included in Trump's plan....which is not only very feasible, it's cheap as hell - 15+ billion.

Amy McGrath went into great detail on this, and kind of shot herself in the foot. That's the only reason I know this. I didn't really know all this tech and stuff was included in the plan, and I had no idea the proposals were this cheap.

...of course if for some reason our govt agreed to this, I'm sure it would cost 50+ billion....still, that's a heck of a cheap price and is probably already covered by the massive cuts Trump has made to govt.
 

mashburned

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There is also a cheaper way than the wall. Bring our troops back from countries where they are not wanted and from countries who are not at least paying for us to be there. Take those troops and set up permanent FOB's in states that border Mexico, put up concertina wire (Like already seen) and rotate these units to where they spend at least 6 months before being relieved by the next unit. The rotations would be far and few between for most and we would not be spending anywhere near as much money to rotate units there as we do over seas.

That makes wayyyyy too much sense.
 

bkingUK

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13 billion for the wall is a conservative estimate. Others put it at 230+ billion. And since it’s the government building it, I’d be more inclined towards the second figure.
 

bkingUK

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Here’s a serious question. What exactly are you trying to prevent with a wall?
 

mashburned

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Prevent easy access to *key points along the border*

...can't believe this has to be explained to "adults" on the internet

It's not a great wall of china. It doesn't cover our entire border. The majority of it, the rough terrain, the least accessible routes would be covered by increased drone and tech...which would take up a lot of the budget I would imagine.
 

mashburned

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13 billion for the wall is a conservative estimate. Others put it at 230+ billion. And since it’s the government building it, I’d be more inclined towards the second figure.

Even at that, tremendously cheap....but that's an outrageous number I have not seen anybody throw out...maybe some dumbass blogger who thinks we're walling up every.single.mile of the border...

Which we could absolutely do, but nobody is entertaining that idea.
 

bkingUK

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Prevent easy access to *key points along the border*

...can't believe this has to be explained to "adults" on the internet

It's not a great wall of china. It doesn't cover our entire border. The majority of it, the rough terrain, and least accessible routes would be covered by increased drone and tech...which would take up a lot of the budget I would imagine.

And what’s the pay off?
 

bkingUK

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Even at that, tremendously cheap....but that's an outrageous number I have not seen anybody throw out...maybe some dumbass blogger who thinks we're walling up every.single.mile of the border...

Which we could absolutely do, but nobody is entertaining that idea.

That would come out to about $900 increased in taxes per US citizen. Dirt cheap.
 

Deeeefense

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So your solution is to tear down the border wall/fence around SD where all these migrants are & instead have added forces at the border to physically stop them? And won't complain when some are injured or die? And think it's Ok for some of the US people stopping them to be injured or killed?
.

Nope I didn't say any of that.
 

warrior-cat

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Well, the simple view is that no one should break the law and the border is concrete, but I don’t find that realistic. I don’t think drawing a line is realistic either because the line is circumstantial and complicated.

If I’m president I’d first assess what the economy needs. Are there companies who need low wage workers and what is the effect of hiring them?

Based on that, it’s a matter who is let granted access and under what parameters. I don’t think it’s necessarily unreasonable to consider the people in the caravan for acceptance and job placement. Hell, they had the drive of walking over countries to get here. Meanwhile, low wage employers across the US can’t find workers. So, I see a solution there.

What’s the cost benefit analysis on stationing military on the US border. Do costs even outweighs the benefits?[/QU

Impossible to cost more given the scenario I gave above, not even close. Temporary to permanent billeting such as I suggested (FOB types) would be very inexpensive to build and maintain vs all of the flights of soldiers and equipment plus billeting Germany and other area's we are currently deployed cost us. Would save billions in short order.
 

cole854

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They aren’t criminals or trash. They just want a better life. This isn’t 1830. They need help and certainly don’t need to be treated as invaders when it’s not accurate.

Many are criminals, and trash is up for debate. And they most certainly are invading...thus, invaders.
 

funKYcat75

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I know @warrior-cat is military, but I don't like the idea of putting the armed forces at the Mexican border. I'll ask him him and other military folks, but is that really the best use for our troops? Maybe it is. It seems like an overabundance of force to stop a problem that has many other solutions, however costly.
 

warrior-cat

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Take the "$40 billion" we receive from those 22 million illegals each year (Don't see how that is possible but:eek:kay:) and we could build it and then some. Easy Peasy
 

warrior-cat

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I know @warrior-cat is military, but I don't like the idea of putting the armed forces at the Mexican border. I'll ask him him and other military folks, but is that really the best use for our troops? Maybe it is. It seems like an overabundance of force to stop a problem that has many other solutions, however costly.
Only if we could bring them back from areas of the world we do not need to be in. We are already paying them so, why not use them. Plus, you can train them for border patrol easily. I did some of that before the Gulf war started along some of those berms the Iraqi's built.

P.S. It would be a cost effective method given my scenario of bring most back from overseas.
 

starchief

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Just follow current law , But we have to actually enforce current law . There is no " looking away" because you don't like the law . We need to stress that immigrants are to assimilate to US laws , traditions , expectations ,etc etc .. become an American .. Not bring your failed ways to our country . You want to come to America , you agree to be an American . All are welcome . But follow the process thats already on in place .

That boat departed a long time ago. We stood helplessly by as politicians abandoned the melting pot idea for the much better foreign loyalty enclaves idea.
 

cat_in_the_hat

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And what’s the pay off?
I don't think border security can be examined solely from an economic perspective. Not that economics should be ignored either. Fundamentally, you can't have a country if you can't secure the borders. In terms of political stability and preservation of the ideals we hold true, you cannot have a large population of illegal aliens taking up residence in your country. At some point those populations could become large enough that the government no longer has control of certain areas of the country. You can make all the laws you want, but a government cannot arrest millions of people nor can it dictate what people believe and desire. It is very possible to lose the identity of your country simply by letting in significant numbers of people who do not believe the same things you do, or who are uneducated about our political beliefs. I believe diversity of opinion and experiences can be a strength in a lot cases, but in terms of the fundamental political belief system, there is no room for diversity. The concept of individual liberty that this country upholds is far to important to risk it by admitting people that don't share that belief.

I will use this to also respond to your question about what does assimilation mean. It means they must believe in the Constitution and the ideals that go along with it. To do this, they must be educated in those concepts. I doubt these people currently at our border have very much understanding of our Constitution and political and economic beliefs. I personally don't think we should admit anyone who doesn't have a strong belief in individual liberty and economic freedom.
 

starchief

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Why aren’t some of you more upset with the companies/business owners that are using the illegal immigrant labor?

Do you think they are just wanting to coke to the US for some welfare?

Democrats want the illegals for their votes after inevitable amnesty.
Republicans want them because it holds down labor costs.

This is the reason there is only token enforcement against employers. Go hard on those who employ illegals and they stop coming. Note how many went back home after the recent recession when there was no work (a lot). They are back now (porous borders) because there are jobs for them.
 

qwesley

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Here’s a serious question. What exactly are you trying to prevent with a wall?
Low end wage suppression
Low end housing shortage
Resource drain in mostly poor schools
Slow human and drug trafficking
Slow growth in illegal detainments (50k per month which is asinine), the resources it takes to manage that has to be astronomical

It is all painfully simple but the real answer on why it is being allowed to the degree that major voices on the left are calling for ICE to be abolished is that your side wants to turn TX and a few other key states blue so you have an insurmountable electoral bloc.
 
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buckethead1978

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I haven’t done any research but I’d be willing to bet gerrymandering is a much easier way to get the votes versus amnesty for illegal immigrants.
 

qwesley

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Yeah, reaserch. You can't gerrymander electoral college numbers in all or nothing states which all but a couple are. The entire southern border of TX is now blue and a GD skateboarding socialist nearly won a statewide race.