I certainly respect your opinion, but when that many lives are on the line, and you are the one making the call, I would Waterboard the **** out of that guy. I am not sure how any president could live with themselves knowing that they could have potentially saved those lives and did nothing.
Should America torture?
- Thread starter Boomboom521
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I certainly respect your opinion, but when that many lives are on the line, and you are the one making the call, I would Waterboard the **** out of that guy. I am not sure how any president could live with themselves knowing that they could have potentially saved those lives and did nothing.
Time and time again, our military has said it was of no value and doesn't work. I believe them. Biff is simply clueless.
Even with the Russian declaration of war and their battles in Manchuria and China, Truman still believed the United States would have to conquer the island. Military experts told him that it would cost 1 million American lives. The Japanese totals would've been far higher.
I guess it depends on what your view of history is really. I agree that I wouldn't have continued island hopping or invaded Japan if there was a better way. I've been reading a lot on this since watching "The Untold History of the US" by Oliver Stone to see how accurate his assertions were in the doc. There is strong evidence that indicates Japan was ready and willing to surrender prior to the bomb (the only stipulation seems to be the retention of the Emperor- which the US agreed to anyway). I'm surely overstepping my bounds to say what would have happened, and do not mean to lessen the weight of American soldiers lives.
I don't think it works all that well, but I think that operators and interrogators need to have whatever tools necessary to do their job in an extreme circumstance too. I agree with you that America should strive to be the example but at the same time a soldier should be able to do what he needs to do in a given situation if need be. So I am torn.
It's funny, I had no idea why this thread came about. I thought we learned already that torture is not effective. I thought EVERYBODY in this country knew this. Then it hit me, Biff....then I googled it and yes, there it is. Biff is all over it.
Sec. of the Navy James Forrestal, Adm. Earnest King, Gen. Eisenhower, Adm. Leahy, Brig. Gen. Fellers didn't advise as such, and all felt that the bomb was unnecessary.
And many CIA and other intelligence officers have said very different things, including how KSM gave us critical info that lead to Bin Laden. I can post a few if you don't believe it. It is hard to imagine when time is of the essence and lives are at stake, that we sit by and only interrogate, essentially ensuring their deaths.
Do you want me to list all of those that thought it was? It is a much, much longer list.
I wouldn't trust Oliver Stone to present anything in a fair and balanced fashion. He has an agenda. There is no question that some civilians in the inner circle wanted to surrender and preserve their territory as early as 1943. But the military wanted no part of that and most believed were willing to sacrifice it all to avoid surrender.
That's very true. But as I posted before, it is so easy for anyone today to second guess Truman. They didn't live in his shoes. They didn't go what he went through. They didn't have all the information he had. They didn't have his responsibilities. They didn't see all those caskets coming back to the U.S. They didn't live with the thought of the hundreds of thousands of American lives lost in WWII.
Yes, he signed an Exec Action today to re-open overseas CIA black sites to allow torture during interrogation.
Someone being tortured would tell tiny penis Donnie he was hung like a horse to get the torture to stop.
We have been led down many wrong paths because of this.
I think it was more about the Russians, but you're right, it's easy to look back and second guess.
look... Trump just gave the ULTIMATE ULTIMATUM...
if you're a good guy, this shouldn't bother you...
if you want to be a bad guy, well, enjoy the pain...
Trump's giving EVERYONE THE CHOICE to do the right thing !
if you're a good guy, this shouldn't bother you...
if you want to be a bad guy, well, enjoy the pain...
Trump's giving EVERYONE THE CHOICE to do the right thing !
I think water boarding is torture. I think the US should not even come close to the line. War crimes were committed with extraordinary rendition.
I completely agree. If we want to be a world leader, we need ro act like one and take the high road on issues like this.
It is easy to say all the right things about a topic like this and feel good that we can be better than the rest and set some example. Of course none of us are on an operation where someone who we owe our lives too is in dire straights and the only person who can give us information to save them is right in front of you and the only answers are right in that room. Are we willing as a nation to be so magnanimous that we prosecute someone for doing what they have to do to save a brother? There are two sides to this, but I agree that this stuff doesn't need to be our policy. I think looking the other way in an extreme situation is also correct.
Extraordinary rendition went way beyond water boarding with no imminent threat as justification.
Ok. Did you read my post though? I am not talking about extraordinary rendition. I am talking about not prosecuting someone for doing what they need to do.
That's the problem here. We can paint all sorts of scenarios where something like waterboarding may be used as a last resort. Biff is opening with it. Some may say this is all just posturing to get the world's attention. IT IS ILLEGAL and unravels the very fabric we strived to create in world diplomacy. If anyone thinks ISIS is swayed by any of this, forget it.
Yes, I understand. I was just noting of the issues under question water boarding was the least offensive investigatory method used.
What was the executive action that was signed yesterday? I haven't seen anything other than a draft document that is unsigned and apparently wont be signed. So far the actions by Trump so far are as follows.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/10-executive-actions-trump-signed-far/
He didn't sign it yesterday, I was wrong, but he had planned to...but it is specifically for CIA black sites.
"President Donald Trump may sign an executive order Wednesday that could allow the CIA to reopen its "black sites," or secret detention centers, reversing an order President Obama signed to shut them down in 2009, the New York Times reports.
According to a draft of the order obtained by the Times, Trump plans to rescind Obama's executive orders to close the prison at Guantánamo Bay and end CIA prisons, and replace them with an old 2007 order from George W. Bush that allowed interrogators to use tactics that were not defined by the Geneva Convention as war crimes. Trump was gearing up for self-described "big day" on national security on Wednesday, but it's not clear when he plans to sign this order."
So all the whining yesterday was about a draft copy of something that Trump didn't sign and wasn't even a white house document?
I assume you are talking about the A Bomb. An invasion would have resulted in millions of more deaths. We might have been able to force a surrender if we continued fire bombing which also would have resulted in millions of more deaths. The decision to drop the A Bomb was the best choice.
You may want to research that a little bit. What Japan feared was Russia declaring war on them. The day before we dropped the first atomic bomb Russia declared war on Japan. They sought terms of surrender before we dropped the atomic bombs. Also their army was so depleted 50,000 troops could've taken Tokyo.
You are only telling half of the story here. The emperor wanted to surrender, the military leadership did not. They wanted to continue to fight and have all of Japan defend itself, not just standing military. They also wanted to surrender under terms. Our leadership, specifically MacArthur would not accept anything less than unconditional surrender.