Since 1960, Who would be your MLB rotation and closer?
- Thread starter Coach34
- Start date
1. Steve Carlton
2. Bob Gibson
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Greg Maddux
5. Randy Johnson
Closer: Mariano Rivera
2. Bob Gibson
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Greg Maddux
5. Randy Johnson
Closer: Mariano Rivera
1. Roger Clemens
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Randy Johnson
4. Greg Maddux
5. John Smoltz
Closer- Mariano Rivera
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Randy Johnson
4. Greg Maddux
5. John Smoltz
Closer- Mariano Rivera
1) Bob Gibson
2) Sandy Koufax
3) Randy Johnson
4) Tom Seaver
5) Greg Maddux
Close, but no cigar - Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Pedro Martinez
Closer - Mariano Rivera (Lee Smith and Dennis Eckersly would be my setup guys)
Nolan Ryan wouldn't even crack the top 10, as far as I'm concerned. Don't be blinded but his 7 career no-hitters. Mark Whiten hit 4 bombs in a game... but that doesn't make him one of the best power hitters of all time. And I don't allow confirmed steriod users on my list, so Roger Clemens should go dial up Mindy McCready for a shoulder to cry on. If he was clean, he'd be my ace.</p>
2) Sandy Koufax
3) Randy Johnson
4) Tom Seaver
5) Greg Maddux
Close, but no cigar - Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Pedro Martinez
Closer - Mariano Rivera (Lee Smith and Dennis Eckersly would be my setup guys)
Nolan Ryan wouldn't even crack the top 10, as far as I'm concerned. Don't be blinded but his 7 career no-hitters. Mark Whiten hit 4 bombs in a game... but that doesn't make him one of the best power hitters of all time. And I don't allow confirmed steriod users on my list, so Roger Clemens should go dial up Mindy McCready for a shoulder to cry on. If he was clean, he'd be my ace.</p>
1. Sandy Koufax- he had one of, if not the most dominating stretch for a pitcher in the history of the game between 1963-1966. I have seen video of him, and he is the best I have ever seen. It's sad that his career ended with arthritis.
2. Roger Clemens- Had a great World Series record and is the only guy to strikeout 20 guys in a game twice in his career. To me, he is really the consumate RH pitcher.
3. Randy Johnson- I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't been mentioned yet. The guy just terrorized hitters. And he was a throwback because he could also close games in an emergency situation from time to time. I mean, hitters in an All-Star game wanted no part of him- the MAJOR LEAGUE All-Star game.
4. Bob Gibson- Speaking of terrorizing hitters. An ERA of 1.12 is just ridiculous. This guy is a big reason why the mound was lowered. Then he goes out and has an 18 K game in the World Series. He was also a great hitter- I think he it something like 6 home runs one year, and he also briefly played for the Harlem Globetrotters as well, I believe.
5. Nolan Ryan- What would his numbers have been if he had played on GOOD teams? I don't know that he would get to Cy Young's 511, but I could see 400. Still, 5,000 K's is pretty awesome and equally as untouchable as Young's win total. I think he had seven no-hitters- and how many guys that are over 40 that you could legitimately say "He could throw a no-hitter tonight"?
Closer- By the way this is my all-time favorite position in baseball, and what I would want to play if I was blessed enough to make it to the Big Leagues. I've got to go with Mariano Rivera as well. He has the cool entrance with Enter Sandman. He might get the all-time saves record- depending on what Trevor Hoffman does, and if he can outlast him. Regardless of whether he gets the save record or not, no one is better in the postseason. I might be a little biased because I share the same birthday as him, and as a side note he is also a big time Christian and he has a really good devotional out.
Edit to say- I see where a couple of people did pick Randy Johnson.
2. Roger Clemens- Had a great World Series record and is the only guy to strikeout 20 guys in a game twice in his career. To me, he is really the consumate RH pitcher.
3. Randy Johnson- I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't been mentioned yet. The guy just terrorized hitters. And he was a throwback because he could also close games in an emergency situation from time to time. I mean, hitters in an All-Star game wanted no part of him- the MAJOR LEAGUE All-Star game.
4. Bob Gibson- Speaking of terrorizing hitters. An ERA of 1.12 is just ridiculous. This guy is a big reason why the mound was lowered. Then he goes out and has an 18 K game in the World Series. He was also a great hitter- I think he it something like 6 home runs one year, and he also briefly played for the Harlem Globetrotters as well, I believe.
5. Nolan Ryan- What would his numbers have been if he had played on GOOD teams? I don't know that he would get to Cy Young's 511, but I could see 400. Still, 5,000 K's is pretty awesome and equally as untouchable as Young's win total. I think he had seven no-hitters- and how many guys that are over 40 that you could legitimately say "He could throw a no-hitter tonight"?
Closer- By the way this is my all-time favorite position in baseball, and what I would want to play if I was blessed enough to make it to the Big Leagues. I've got to go with Mariano Rivera as well. He has the cool entrance with Enter Sandman. He might get the all-time saves record- depending on what Trevor Hoffman does, and if he can outlast him. Regardless of whether he gets the save record or not, no one is better in the postseason. I might be a little biased because I share the same birthday as him, and as a side note he is also a big time Christian and he has a really good devotional out.
Edit to say- I see where a couple of people did pick Randy Johnson.
If you are talking about taking each person at the most dominant point in their career, mine would be:
1. Koufax
2. Pedro
3. Gibson
4. Maddux
5. Johnson
Closer-Rivera
I know many think that Pedro doesn't belong there, but in his prime, he was nearly unhittable.
1. Koufax
2. Pedro
3. Gibson
4. Maddux
5. Johnson
Closer-Rivera
I know many think that Pedro doesn't belong there, but in his prime, he was nearly unhittable.
In no particular order:
Orel Hershiser
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Tom Seaver
Closer: Rivera
All-Time Pitcher: Walter Johnson</p>
Orel Hershiser
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Tom Seaver
Closer: Rivera
All-Time Pitcher: Walter Johnson</p>
Nolan Ryan wouldnt make the top 10?
He would have won 400 games in his career had he played on a good team for just 1/3 of his career. In addition to the no-no's, he threw 12 one-hitters as well. Over 5,700 K's. 61 career shutouts...Easily, the dominant pitcher in modern baseball history
He would have won 400 games in his career had he played on a good team for just 1/3 of his career. In addition to the no-no's, he threw 12 one-hitters as well. Over 5,700 K's. 61 career shutouts...Easily, the dominant pitcher in modern baseball history
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Tim Wakefield to really 17 up them up after 4 days of catcher killing fastballs, there will be many pulled back muscles swinging at knuckle balls, and then watching them trying to catch back up with Johnson's fastball on the next day. This will be great entertainment even for people who are not baseball fans.
Closer Rivera</p>
Roger Clemens
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Tim Wakefield to really 17 up them up after 4 days of catcher killing fastballs, there will be many pulled back muscles swinging at knuckle balls, and then watching them trying to catch back up with Johnson's fastball on the next day. This will be great entertainment even for people who are not baseball fans.
Closer Rivera</p>
1-Ricky Vaughn
2-Chet "Rocket" Steadman
3-Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
4-Billy Chapel
5-Kenny Powers
Closer-Billy Duke
2-Chet "Rocket" Steadman
3-Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
4-Billy Chapel
5-Kenny Powers
Closer-Billy Duke
MagnoliaHunter said:
I didn't think I would see Tim Wakefield mentioned in this thread, but if you're going with a knuckleball guy, why not Phil Niekro?
I agree with you, but I want to take it one step further- how about bring in Niekro in relief after taking out Randy Johnson or someone like that? Or how about bring in Dan Quisenberry- maybe the best submarine pitcher of all time after Koufax or Gibson?
but the question was starting rotation and closer. I just like knuckeballers and dont like Niekro, he wouldn't give my nephew an autograph at the park when all the ball players were signing baseballs. Stupid, I know, but it bothered me that he couldnt be bothered to do it when the others were.
If you are talking about in their prime...you can not leave off Pedro, as he has had two of the best seasons a pitcher has ever had. I will go with careers though.<div>
</div><div>Anyways....I'm going</div><div>
</div><div>1. Roger Clemens</div><div>2. Tom Seaver</div><div>3. Greg Maddux</div><div>4. Steve Carlton</div><div>5. Gaylord Perry</div><div>
</div><div>Closer: Dennis Eckersley</div>
</div><div>Anyways....I'm going</div><div>
</div><div>1. Roger Clemens</div><div>2. Tom Seaver</div><div>3. Greg Maddux</div><div>4. Steve Carlton</div><div>5. Gaylord Perry</div><div>
</div><div>Closer: Dennis Eckersley</div>
May I suggest Hoyt Wilheilm then? He is also in the Hall of Fame, was actually a closer, and actually had a decent fastball to go with his knuckleball.
But ask Tyler Clippard about how their handed out and how well it defines greatness...<div>
</div><div>What sucks about comparing pitchers, is that so many of their stats are directly related to the performance of the rest of their team.... When I take a look at great pitchers, I generally tend towards Cy Young awards and ERA... Nolan Ryan has ZERO Cy Youngs... Which means he was NEVER, EVER even once, considered the best pitcher in his half of MLB. His career ERA is 3.19 (impressive, but not top 10 material since 1960).</div><div>
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</div><div>What sucks about comparing pitchers, is that so many of their stats are directly related to the performance of the rest of their team.... When I take a look at great pitchers, I generally tend towards Cy Young awards and ERA... Nolan Ryan has ZERO Cy Youngs... Which means he was NEVER, EVER even once, considered the best pitcher in his half of MLB. His career ERA is 3.19 (impressive, but not top 10 material since 1960).</div><div>
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I cannot even fathom that only 3 people have included Tom 17'n Seaver in their top 5's.<div>
</div><div>311 Career Wins (Nolan Ryan has 324 - his only stat victory over Seaver, minus no-hitters)</div><div>205 Losses (Nolan Ryan has 292)</div><div>.603 Winning Percentage (Nolan Ryan has .526)</div><div>2.86 Career ERA (Nolan Ryan has 3.19)</div><div>231 Complete Games (Nolan Ryan has 223)</div><div>61 Shut-Outs (same as Nolan Ryan and pitched 600 fewer innings)</div><div>3 Cy Youngs (Nolan Ryan has 0)
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</div><div>That is all</div><div>
</div><div>Here's a list of some famous no-hitters</div><div>Bud Smith</div><div>Jose Jimenez</div><div>Hideo Nomo</div><div>Anibal Sanchez</div><div>Eric Milton</div><div>Kent Mercker</div><div>Scott Erickson</div><div>Wilson Alvarez</div><div>Tommy Green</div><div>
</div><div>Forgive me if I don't take much stock in no-hitters..... They're tremendous feats and all, but I'm not a huge believer in those "defining" your career... like they have Nolan.</div>
</div><div>311 Career Wins (Nolan Ryan has 324 - his only stat victory over Seaver, minus no-hitters)</div><div>205 Losses (Nolan Ryan has 292)</div><div>.603 Winning Percentage (Nolan Ryan has .526)</div><div>2.86 Career ERA (Nolan Ryan has 3.19)</div><div>231 Complete Games (Nolan Ryan has 223)</div><div>61 Shut-Outs (same as Nolan Ryan and pitched 600 fewer innings)</div><div>3 Cy Youngs (Nolan Ryan has 0)
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</div><div>That is all</div><div>
</div><div>Here's a list of some famous no-hitters</div><div>Bud Smith</div><div>Jose Jimenez</div><div>Hideo Nomo</div><div>Anibal Sanchez</div><div>Eric Milton</div><div>Kent Mercker</div><div>Scott Erickson</div><div>Wilson Alvarez</div><div>Tommy Green</div><div>
</div><div>Forgive me if I don't take much stock in no-hitters..... They're tremendous feats and all, but I'm not a huge believer in those "defining" your career... like they have Nolan.</div>
But was he top five good? I agree that he's close. I agree that Pedro, Steve Carlton, Maddux and most all of the others that have mentioned merit to be in the discussion as well.
As far as Nolan Ryan, it's not just that he threw a no-hitter, it's that he threw something like seven no-hitters, and had over 5,000 K's to go along with it. I think Sandy Koufax is second with four including a perfect game. I agree with you that a lot of pitching stats are linked to how well the pitcher's team did- most notably wins- but the thing with Ryan and the Cy Young's is this- how many would he have had had he played for good teams? Because the Cy Young, much like the MVP, is linked to how well the players team did to a degree- although I will admit that the Cy Young is linked to team success less than the MVP. Ryan also holds the single season strikeout record as well.
Also, you did not mention this, but I believe that Ryan has the career record for walks as well, which supports you as well.
I wish we had some hitters from the 70's so we could ask them who they would rather face- Seaver or Ryan, because that would settle it. I bet they would say that they would rather face Ryan though.
As far as Nolan Ryan, it's not just that he threw a no-hitter, it's that he threw something like seven no-hitters, and had over 5,000 K's to go along with it. I think Sandy Koufax is second with four including a perfect game. I agree with you that a lot of pitching stats are linked to how well the pitcher's team did- most notably wins- but the thing with Ryan and the Cy Young's is this- how many would he have had had he played for good teams? Because the Cy Young, much like the MVP, is linked to how well the players team did to a degree- although I will admit that the Cy Young is linked to team success less than the MVP. Ryan also holds the single season strikeout record as well.
Also, you did not mention this, but I believe that Ryan has the career record for walks as well, which supports you as well.
I wish we had some hitters from the 70's so we could ask them who they would rather face- Seaver or Ryan, because that would settle it. I bet they would say that they would rather face Ryan though.
<div>Bob Gibson</div><div>Tom Seaver</div><div>Randy Johnson</div><div>Greg Maddux</div><div>Roger Clemens</div><div>Jim Palmer</div><div>Sandy Koufax</div><div>Steve Carlton</div><div>Pedro Martinez (he's questionable too, because of health)</div><div>
</div><div>After looking for a top 10, I wouldn't argue much if you told me Nolan Ryan was 7th or 8th since the 1960's. However, I'll still keep him out of the top 5, and I personally don't even think it's very close.</div><div>
</div><div>I have a really hard time with him never winning a Cy Young. Tim Lincecum can tell you about winning Cy Youngs on bad teams... he's already got 2 (although he didn't deserve the last one). It's definitely do-able when the team around you sucks.</div><div>
</div><div>His no-hitters mesmerize people... and honestly, I understand why. No-hitters are phenomenal achievements... and he did it a ridiculous 7 times... But no-hitters, to me, are when the stars-align... and a great player has one of the best days of his life. It should not define the entire career, but it definitely should factor into it.</div><div>
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</div><div>After looking for a top 10, I wouldn't argue much if you told me Nolan Ryan was 7th or 8th since the 1960's. However, I'll still keep him out of the top 5, and I personally don't even think it's very close.</div><div>
</div><div>I have a really hard time with him never winning a Cy Young. Tim Lincecum can tell you about winning Cy Youngs on bad teams... he's already got 2 (although he didn't deserve the last one). It's definitely do-able when the team around you sucks.</div><div>
</div><div>His no-hitters mesmerize people... and honestly, I understand why. No-hitters are phenomenal achievements... and he did it a ridiculous 7 times... But no-hitters, to me, are when the stars-align... and a great player has one of the best days of his life. It should not define the entire career, but it definitely should factor into it.</div><div>
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close with "ECK"........In the bullpen I'd have Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Carlton and Clemens.......
But he did strikeout 383 hitters in one season- a record that will never EVER be broken. That's about as dominant as you can be on the mound. I need to look-up how many starts he had that season. Hell, even if it was 38, that's 10 K's per start, not per 9 innings...simply amazing
Don't punish Ryan for being on crappy teams almost his entire career, not to mention pitching over half of it in the AL, which woul explain the higher ERA
Don't punish Ryan for being on crappy teams almost his entire career, not to mention pitching over half of it in the AL, which woul explain the higher ERA
And yes, that was a phenomenal season. But he's still not cracking my top 5. Stat sheet athttp://www.baseball-refer...players/r/ryanno01.shtml<div>
</div><div>I like guys who don't give up runs, which is how I chose my 5.</div>
</div><div>I like guys who don't give up runs, which is how I chose my 5.</div>
Ironically, he had a higher ERA when he was in the National League. He spent most of his NL years playing for Houston who at the time played at the Astrodome. The Astrodome was known as a pitcher friendly park.Coach34 said: