so this doesnt get lost- Wilson thread Part Deux

[Coach34]

A) I was simply stating everything I'm hearing is that Wilson is returning
B) I was not happy with the defense either
C) The defense wasn't as awful as some of you are trying to make it out to be- but the really good offenses did make it look bad.
D) I was asked not to say who probably won't return

The thing I take away most from our D is that the DL is the backbone of your defense. And our DL didnt play worth a ****. Now then, was it scheme? LacK of talent? Both?

Wilson is also the DL coach and that concerns me that this was the worst group on the team.
It concerns me that Cherry started the whole year- it doesnt make sense.
It concerns me that Quay played about half the snaps he should have this season.

Here is what I do know:

We SHOULD be better on the DL next season due to recruiting and some youth getting experience this season and growing up some.
Mullen has a very big ego- and I'm sure that night in Oxford has caused some sleepless nights. Mullen is also a fairly smart individual.
Mullen has shown he doesnt mind making staff changes.
If he thinks Wilson can do the job- then I'm willing to give him a chance to fix it.

One thing that helps your defense is the offense staying on the field. We were only 36% on 3rd down this season. We also ran 907 plays on offense in 2010- this season just 786 going into the bowl game. Because of our offense- our defense will have had to play an extra game of defense once the bowl game is over (we'll be around 850 plays)- thats a helluva lot of plays that take its toll on a defense.

 

[TDawg52]

IMO - Alabama brutalized our DL and defense.... we never recovered....

 

[rem101]

A) I was simply stating everything I'm hearing is that Wilson is returning
D) I was asked not to say who probably won't return

I was told the same thing about him returning. I wasn't told who would not return, just that changes would be made.

 

[tenureplan]

So isn't it the D Coordinators job to determine that the D-line is a weakness and to scheme around it? That's my biggest knock on Wilson, he pulled a Sly and was determined to stick with what wasn't working.

On the total number of plays...I would be interested to see the yards per play because I bet they were higher this year than 2010 (why aren't we comparing 2011?). With a higher yards per play, it takes less plays to get down the field. Also, we had started trying to run up-tempo in 2010 and we huddled every play this year.

 

[LandArchDawg]

Cherrington being gone next year helps him immediately. Now if we can get him to abandon the 3-man fronts on 3rd down (even 3rd and short!!) then we are getting somewhere and I would be okay with him staying.

 

[ronpolk]

I understand what you're saying but how do you scheme around a DL that gets no push? You can drop back in coverage but you can't expect good coverage for too long, even with guys like Banks and Slay. My knock on Wilson comes more with what he asked our safeties to do. Too many times during the egg bowl Whitley was on Moncrief.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

You could make your point better if you'd take a different approach......

Trying to actually defend our defense is just stupid.

I can almost understand the angle that says it's now an offensive game in college.....people are scoring more points than ever. So, we have to either win shoot-outs, or have the defense to stop shoot-outs. We are still in the middle right now. Maybe if Mullen thinks the D will grow up on the line and be formidable next year, by all means keep Wilson. But can we make up for this with a more explosive offense? That's on Mullen to decide too.

Take the Egg Bowl for example....nothing happened there that we didn't expect. Our offense just didn't get it done. But there again, just because we expected them to score points does not give the defense an excuse.

 

[MSDawg34]

Our DL was pathetic this year. If I was the DC I would be so mad at whoever their position coach is** Their position coach is the guy that caused our DC's defense to give up more yards than one of our most successful offensive season's in history.

You are correct that it starts with the DL. Wilson should chew that DL coach out for embarrassing him so much this year*

 

[NCDawg.sixpack]

Too many times during the season Whitley was on anybody. He's not a DB-not sure where to put him.

 

[LandArchDawg]

Blitzing Nikoe worked well the few times we did it. Cam blitzing was more successful than what the 3-man fronts were doing for us. We didn't do either enough. I know Wells whiffed on the quarterback a couple of times, but a little pressure is better than no pressure.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

A close second for worst unit on D is safeties. Do you think we'll be making a coaching change at that staff position? I notice our safeties coach is also our recruiting coordinator.

 

[Dawg1976]

Will changes be made after bowl game or after sighing day? Whatever changes there are....

 

[InaccuratePredictionsDawg]

Guess you forgot about turnovers...

..if not for the high ratio of turnovers that constantly bailed this defense out, this would have been a historically bad MSU defense. I don't care what you are hearing; this defense needs off-season changes. I'm talking about coaching changes. I can live with watching our players getting physically whipped by superior opponents. What I can't live with (& neither can anyone else) is watching our players stand flat-footed & try to avoid contact. This is not the way defense is played @MSU. Not even under Croom.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

I agree. This is where we will miss Banks/Slay. And Lawrence too.....

Not in just talent, because we have other talented players on the team and coming up. But the knack for the big play, the fumbles Banks caused, etc.

Coach is just freaking stupid on this.

 

[Dawgzilla]

IMO - Alabama brutalized our DL and defense.... we never recovered....

That may be true, but the defense sucked before the Bama game, too. The only game I was really happy with the defensive effort was Auburn. Maybe Kentucky, too. I know JSU, USA and MTSU all 10 points or less, but they also had wide open receivers on a regular basis and just couldn't make the plays.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

So who is putting their @ss on the line for Wilson? Because if we go thru this again next year, he shouldn't be the only one fired.

For arguments sake, maybe Wison told Dan he thought one of the Browns should play LB this year, and Dan overruled him. Or something similar. In that scenario i can see Dan excusing the lackluster D.

 

[Coach34]

So who is putting their @ss on the line for Wilson? Because if we go thru this again next year, he shouldn't be the only one fired.

For arguments sake, maybe Wison told Dan he thought one of the Browns should play LB this year, and Dan overruled him. Or something similar. In that scenario i can see Dan excusing the lackluster D.

It all goes back to Mullen- he calls the shots

 

[boatsandhoes]

I have always said this and I am sticking with it.....

If your DL can get a good pass rush it will make up for almost everything else on any level of ball. You can't convince me we don't have enough talent down there to get a rush. What bothers me the most is the generic style down there. It's bull rush every time. I get depressed when I watch Mingo/montgomery or Clowney, Jarvis Jones or even Auburn's ends. Our DL style wreaks of pee wee scheme. That is what I blame wilson most for. Apparently, no one teaches them any pass rush moves other than bull rush. WE didn't touch manziel, mcarron, or wallace at all. Is a spin move or swim move too much to ask every once in a while? A twist, looping the ends, stunt, slanting, hell something to mix up the OL blocking scheme. Maybe you get a free shot!!!

The great defenses of 98 got a pass rush, Jack! Kevin Sluder had 7-8 sacks. You don't have to cover anybody if the qb is getting bombed every play. He'll start short arming it or flinching.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

A) I was simply stating everything I'm hearing is that Wilson is returning

Unacceptable. If you don't perform you need to be held responsible. Not arguing what you are "hearing." Just saying if it's true that sucks.

B) I was not happy with the defense either

Funny because you seem to be placing blame on the offense any chance you get.

C) The defense wasn't as awful as some of you are trying to make it out to be- but the really good offenses did make it look bad.

This years defense was worse than the previous two teams (2011 & 2010) in the following categories:
Points Allowed Per Game
First Downs Allowed
Rushing First Downs Allowed
Rushing Yards Per Game
Rushing Yards Per Carry
Passing Yards Allowed Per Attempt
Yards Allowed Per Play
Yards Allowed Per Game
Opponents 3rd Down Percentage
Sacks.

One thing that helps your defense is the offense staying on the field. We were only 36% on 3rd down this season. We also ran 907 plays on offense in 2010- this season just 786 going into the bowl game. Because of our offense- our defense will have had to play an extra game of defense once the bowl game is over (we'll be around 850 plays)- thats a helluva lot of plays that take its toll on a defense.

You keep comparing 2012 & 2010. Aren't you forgetting an entire 17ing season?

From 2011 to 2012 our offense improved in the following categories:
Points Scored Per Game
First Downs
Passing Yards Per Game
Passing Yards Per Attempt
Passing TD, Total Offense
Yards Per Play
Yards Per Game
Interceptions Thrown
Sacks Taken
Time of Possession
Red Zone TD %.

We dropped from 4.4 to 4.3 yards per carry this year from last. (we had a whopping 4.5 in 2010, your favorite year).

We scored exactly one less touchdown rushing in 2012 compared to 2011.

We scored 2 more touchdowns in 2010 (keep in mind they played 12 games versus 2012's 11 so far).

Our offense turned the ball over 21 times in 2010, 20 times in 2011 and then 13 times in 2012.

This talk about the offense falling back is complete ********. We increased our 17ing time of possession by FOUR 17ing MINUTES per game this year from last.

Our defense sucks. Those in charge should be held responsible. Whether they will or not is yet to be seen.

 

[MSDawg34]

THIS ALL DAY LONG

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Cookie, you have to realize Coach34's agenda.....

He's been made to look stupid due to his assessment of Tyler Russell and our offense. He claimed Mullen couldn't do it. Well, he has. Russell's a record setting QB, and our offense in the Mullen Era is the best it has ever been, even with a makeshift OL the past 2 years (thanks Croom). And we'll be even better next year with a Russell/Prescott combo much like Leak/Tebow, with a veteran OL and RBs. Then we go to Prescott full time in 2013 with other spread players around him. Would we be better with a dual threat like Cam Newton? Sure we would, all teams would. That doesn't prove Coach34's point, it just proves that teams are better with great players.

So, he takes up for the defense, which was torched repeatedly this year. When the whole board disagrees, he tries to act like he's an expert. Lunacy.

 

[Coach34]

I use 2010 instead of 2011 because of the OL issues we had in 2011. It's not a good comparision because of it. We had an inordinate amount of injuries last season- but things got back to normal in 2012. Having a healthy OL is the key to any offense.

2010 and 2012 are much better comparision because of that.

 

[johnson86-1]

I understand what you're saying but how do you scheme around a DL that gets no push?

If you want to be a glass half-full person on this, this is what you focus on. Even Tyrone Nix looks good with a good defensive line, and no DC looks good with a bad defensive line. I don't think we will improve enough on the DL for Wilson to look good, but we might end up with an adequate defense.

There's also the fact that Wilson is an inexperienced coach, so it's not unreasonable to expect that he will improve some in the offseason. Hopefully once signing day is over Mullen will put his *** on the road to go learn from some more experienced defensive coaches.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Bullcrap. 2010 and 2013 maybe. Sounds like you ought to let next year play out so you don't keep continuously making yourself out to be a fool.

2013 starters: 6th year Sr. - Smith, JUCO Sr. - Siddoway, Sr. with NFL potential - Jackson, Jr. - Clausell, Jr. - Day
2010 starters: 5th year Sr. - Brignone, Sr. with NFL potential - Sherrod, Jr. - Lawrence, Jr. - Saulsberry, RFr. with NFL potential - Jackson

For reference:

2012 starters: 2013 a year younger, except take away Smith who was hurt all year (you're wrong again on injuries) and replace with a RFr. in Malone. No Sr. leadership at all. 2 Sos. and 2 Jrs.

Just stop.

 

[maroonmania]

..if not for the high ratio of turnovers that constantly bailed this defense out, this would have been a historically bad MSU defense. I don't care what you are hearing; this defense needs off-season changes. I'm talking about coaching changes. I can live with watching our players getting physically whipped by superior opponents. What I can't live with (& neither can anyone else) is watching our players stand flat-footed & try to avoid contact. This is not the way defense is played @MSU. Not even under Croom.

You are correct about the turnovers, we had a LOT of trouble getting offenses off the field this year when we didn't get them and that is something you don't want to have to count on. Turnovers are nice but there will be games you just don't get them. Have to have a defense that can stop drives more consistently with punts as well.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

I use 2010 instead of 2011 because of the OL issues we had in 2011. It's not a good comparision because of it. We had an inordinate amount of injuries last season- but things got back to normal in 2012. Having a healthy OL is the key to any offense.

2010 and 2012 are much better comparision because of that.

Yeah because we have a first round pick on our O-line in 2012. You use those two years because it makes it seem like we've had a fall off on offense (i.e., your agenda).

Surely you don't think that this board is dumb enough to fall for that. Only a moron would say there isn't more carry over between the 2011 and 2012 rosters compared to 2010 and 2012. Maybe you are a moron. Or maybe it's time to admit that our defense sucked and it can't be blamed on the offense.

 

[maroonmania]

I have always said this and I am sticking with it.....

If your DL can get a good pass rush it will make up for almost everything else on any level of ball. You can't convince me we don't have enough talent down there to get a rush. What bothers me the most is the generic style down there. It's bull rush every time. I get depressed when I watch Mingo/montgomery or Clowney, Jarvis Jones or even Auburn's ends. Our DL style wreaks of pee wee scheme. That is what I blame wilson most for. Apparently, no one teaches them any pass rush moves other than bull rush. WE didn't touch manziel, mcarron, or wallace at all. Is a spin move or swim move too much to ask every once in a while? A twist, looping the ends, stunt, slanting, hell something to mix up the OL blocking scheme. Maybe you get a free shot!!!

The great defenses of 98 got a pass rush, Jack! Kevin Sluder had 7-8 sacks. You don't have to cover anybody if the qb is getting bombed every play. He'll start short arming it or flinching.

Heck, did you watch CJ and other Bear DEs in the Egg Bowl? Swim moves, spins, twists, etc., whatever it took to get around their blocker they were doing. I hadn't seen us do that all year. Seems our DTs bull rush and our DEs speed rush and that's about all they know.

 

[Coach34]

Goat- you may be the dumbest mf'er on the board

2010- 401 ypg, 29 points per game, reasonably healthy OL all season with a future NFL lineman
2011- 357 ypg, 25 points per game, 3 OL injuries before the 1st Q ended of Game 3, which also led to QB's getting injured
2012- 389 ypg, 30 points per game, reasonably healthy OL all season with a future NFL lineman (jackson is currently projected as a 3rd rounder if he comes out this April....http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2013/OG)

It's pretty obvious why we had the dropoff in 2011- you don't even have to be a 10%-er to see it

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Maybe we should steal Chris Kiffin away from them.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Haha, can you even read? I said the 2013 OL would be more similar than 2010. And your ypg stats show a trend that even strengthens my argument.....our offense should be even better than 2010 in 2013. And Malone isn't going pro for 3rd round money. Ask Banks. Fletcher Cox said it best, "If it's 1st round then a no-brainer..."

Stats don't matter when you compare the two years, dipshit. It's the condition of the OL. The more you compare to 2010 the dumber you look. If the two years are so similar, what's difference then since we all agree that team was better than this one?????

DEFENSE.

 

[NCDawg.sixpack]

That may be true, but the defense sucked before the Bama game, too. The only game I was really happy with the defensive effort was Auburn. Maybe Kentucky, too. I know JSU, USA and MTSU all 10 points or less, but they also had wide open receivers on a regular basis and just couldn't make the plays.

And we were lucky Auburn fumbled a lot, which made the defense look better.

 

[War Machine Dawg]

You know what else helps the defense?

Getting themselves off the damn field on 3rd down. The bend-then-break ******** forces them to stay on the field much longer than they should. If we actually tried to get off the field before the other team got in FG range, the offense would have more opportunities to stay on the field. So to say the offense has to stay on the field is a bit misleading. Wilson's ****** defensive philosophy doesn't lend itself to the offense getting more chances to stay on the field. In fact, it does the exact opposite by letting opposing offenses complete high percentage passes between the 20s and giving up a ton of rushing yards.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

Breaking it down SAT style...

...or GED depending on who's reading this. Which of these two lists are the most alike?

2012: Jackson, Clausell, Smith, Day, Siddoway
2011: Jackson, Clausell, Smith, Day, Lawrence, Saulsberry
2010: Jackson, Sherrod, Brignone, Lawrence, Saulsberry

Just so we're clear 34, you think 2010 & 2012 are more comparable than 2012 & 2011?

Yeah you're going to want to step away from the keyboard for a bit. Maybe sit a few plays out. Who knows? Maybe you'll sell some condoms in the meantime.

 

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

Wait, Coach34 is cherry picking stats to make himself look smarter? No way!

wait, actually I think I've seen this movie before

 

[Coach34]

...or GED depending on who's reading this. Which of these two lists are the most alike?

2012: Jackson, Clausell, Smith, Day, Siddoway
2011: Jackson, Clausell, Smith, Day, Lawrence, Saulsberry
2010: Jackson, Sherrod, Brignone, Lawrence, Saulsberry

.

2010- remained healthy- had only one 1st year starter new to college football

2011- injury-riddled, Smith only played 2 games, had 4 first year starters including Carmon- whom you conveniently left out

2012- remained healthy, had one 1st year starter new to college football in Malone who had not played a college snap, and a highly-rated juco transfer

One of these things in not like the other, one of these things just does not belong

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

We can get into the minutiae of the offensive line all you want. The facts remain the same. We are better in 2012 than we were in 2011 on offense. We are also better (albeit marginally so and it's VERY close, I'm giving you that) on offense than we were in 2010, i.e. turnovers, points, sacks allowed.

You want to talk about 2010 because it makes your argument stronger, which is fine, but to do so is to completely ignore 2011. Our team in 2012 is a lot more similar to our team in 2011 than it is to the one in 2010. That should be obvious to even the must stubborn doucher (i.e., you).

 

[Coach34]

We can get into the minutiae of the offensive line all you want. The facts remain the same. We are better in 2012 than we were in 2011 on offense. We are also better (albeit marginally so and it's VERY close, I'm giving you that) on offense than we were in 2010, i.e. turnovers, points, sacks allowed.

You want to talk about 2010 because it makes your argument stronger, which is fine, but to do so is to completely ignore 2011. Our team in 2012 is a lot more similar to our team in 2011 than it is to the one in 2010. That should be obvious to even the must stubborn doucher (i.e., you).

Anybody that knows anything about football knows that having 1st year players and injuries on the OL is a killer to your offense. You calling me names and all the other **** doesn't hide that. You're wrong and we both know it. You need to move on to something else, cause that ******** aint flying

 

[tenureplan]

Anybody that knows anything about football knows that having 1st year players and injuries on the OL is a killer to your offense. You calling me names and all the other **** doesn't hide that. You're wrong and we both know it. You need to move on to something else, cause that ******** aint flying

Like Justin Malone?

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Just stop. You're looking even more terrible today than you usually do.

 

[Coach34]

Like Justin Malone?

ok- that's ONE

We had FOUR in 2011

what's your point?