Spring Football

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
Wondering if anyone can help me understand the latest ruling on this. I know the State voted that Spring workouts can be unlimited numbers the last 10 days of school. I assumed that this was in addition to the 21 player skill development that can being on March 15th. However, I was reading on the 4 a board that this REPLACES it. So is it correct that skill development can now only being 10 days prior to the last day of school as opposed to March 15th?
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
I know how THIS coach feels about it. But in reality it was some coaches who proposed it and pushed for it. To me this is devastating to the process of developing football players.

Some see it as an advantage. I see it as a HUGE disadvantage.
 

RalphMachio99

Freshman
Aug 13, 2013
1,650
70
0
I'd love to know why you think this has ANY disadvantages at all. Would love to hear your reasoning on this. I'm sure you've been down to a SC spring practice. They gain so much in spring, and are more prepared for the summer, and consequently the early games that it's not even funny. The difference between early year SC and NC teams is really big. I've often wondered why in the h#ll NC teams schedule their border rivals with such a disadvantage.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
I just cant imagine any coach giving up 3 months of conditioning and development for 10 days it makes no sense to me at all. I read on the 4a board it was to protect Spring sports....so how many baseball players are really playing football nowdays???? We may have one or two but that's it and they would no be in trouble for missing this. I agree with Ralph and see this as a HUGE setback for NC football players. If any coach voted for this I would love to hear their reasoning.
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
Lawn12, actually Ralph is saying that he doesn't understand why it would be a disadvantage to change it to only 10 days. My response is in answer to his question

Because it is STILL only skill development. It IS NOT Spring practice ala SC and other states. It is non-contact skill development for 10 days ONLY. It was previously 60+ days. We lost 50 days.

I could care less about having "all" players for 10 days. We get any awfully lot done working with position groups of 21 or less throughout winter and spring. But then again our goal is for the players to improve individually and as a group. We do not use skill development just to put in our offense and defense.

Knowing what to do is one thing. Being able to do it with great technique and fundamentals takes way more than 10 days.


This post was edited on 12/8 2:22 PM by DKJ
 

BurnsBullDog02_anon

All-Conference
Jul 4, 2008
4,652
2,270
0
It is a joke... A complete joke. DKJ, Hope you are doing well. Will the new conference changes still allow Burns and Central Cabarrus to play? I look forward to it if so.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
Lawn12Diog, don't forget about the other spring sports that may have some FB players. Track is the biggest one, plus Lacrosse, golf, and tennis may get a few.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
I still say that the NC HS FB coaches can use this as a springboard for 10 days of full contact practice. If you don't think 10 days is a long enough period of time you need to look at the other states to see how many days are allowed. OK uses 10 days. There are some states that do not allow anything from Dec. to Aug. I would like to see what all the other states do concerning out of season in reference to after school FB. Someone mentioned something about not being able to have film study. The fact is this can be done in WL classes. A certain day can be set aside for this and it is within the rules.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
BB2=burns and central cabarrus will not be affected and will be played as scheduled is my understanding .
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
Yes BB02. We are still on. Actually the Robinson addition helped us round out our schedule. With that being said, 10 team conferences are a beast.
 

RalphMachio99

Freshman
Aug 13, 2013
1,650
70
0
Originally posted by DKJ:
Lawn12, actually Ralph is saying that he doesn't understand why it would be a disadvantage to change it to only 10 days. My response is in answer to his question

Because it is STILL only skill development. It IS NOT Spring practice ala SC and other states. It is non-contact skill development for 10 days ONLY. It was previously 60+ days. We lost 50 days.

I could care less about having "all" players for 10 days. We get any awfully lot done working with position groups of 21 or less throughout winter and spring. But then again our goal is for the players to improve individually and as a group. We do not use skill development just to put in our offense and defense.

Knowing what to do is one thing. Being able to do it with great technique and fundamentals takes way more than 10 days.



This post was edited on 12/8 2:22 PM by DKJ
Got you. Havn't read into it really yet and was assuming it was going the way of SCs template; and just responding to what I'd seen/heard on here which is pretty dumb thing to do. Wow- what's the point? We are losing a BUNCH of skill days and have to go to just 10 days unpadded?
Yeah- if it isn't what SC does.....why change? Thanks for clearing it up.
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
No problem Ralph. Alot of people don't get it, including some of those who voted FOR it. 50 days less is never better in my opinion. I think it really greatly diminishes how much a player can improve from one season to the next. To me that should be the goal.

As individual players improve, the team improves. To take 10 days to install offenses and defenses with a little individual time each day is just not as beneficial to developing players.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
I totally agree especially those moving up one level ...ie middle school to JV...JV to Varsity. The State had already taken more summer days away a couple of years ago....ie...the week of the 4th (used to be just that day was taken off if it fell during the week), With all the concern about injuries and concussions would it not make sense to add MORE skill days to teach proper techniques ????? DO you guys really think most coaches will follow this plan or have some sort of afterschool activity but stop short of calling it workout or skill development ? I could see our players wanting to get together on their own especially after bball season.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
BTW Ralph...good job against Crest. Your boys showed a lot of heart and almost pulled off a big upset.
 

BlueVols

Senior
Jun 27, 2003
1,633
446
0
For those harping/griping about the two summer dead weeks, when do you expect families to plan a vacation unless all schools are on some equal footing regarding time off? 35 years ago, in my HS days, there were no organized summer workouts so it didn't matter.

For every "understanding" coach who truly doesn't mind a kid taking off for a week, I am certain there is another one who is going to exert pressure, spoken or unspoken, for every player to make every workout. Do I have to roll the dice on which one my son's school hired?

The mandatory dead weeks make it simple for me as a parent to plan a trip to the beach and not worry if being gone is going to have an adverse impact on my son. It makes it equal for every team in the state so the coaches don't have to feel like some school is gaining an advantage.

Here in the mountains we stand a much greater chance of school going all the way to mid-June due to winter weather so we potentially lose about 3 weeks of summer compared to all you flat-landers anyway. We already miss out on some of the area college camps who go on the first week or so of June because we're still in school, sometimes in exams.
 
Sep 12, 2013
1,317
839
0
I HATE this change. March 15 was to be Cameron Barbee's Christmas. Now he, along with everyone else, will have to wait til May. SMH!!!!

I am glad we do not have to look for a replacement for Central Cabarrus.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
BlueVols - I think we can all live with the Summer dead weeks. Its the 50 lost days of spring that most folks have a problem with. Some coaches give players extra time off in the summer. Most will at least give Friday off and one school in our county went Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

And Burns Tweeter - only 8 schools in our state will end the season with a Win. The rest will be very anxious to get that bad taste of a loss out of their mouths and get back to Football so "Christmas" will come late this year for all those anxious to get back at it.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
No problem Ralph. Alot of people don't get it, including some of those
who voted FOR it. 50 days less is never better in my opinion. I think it
really greatly diminishes how much a player can improve from one season
to the next. To me that should be the goal.

As individual
players improve, the team improves. To take 10 days to install offenses
and defenses with a little individual time each day is just not as
beneficial to developing players.


Coach my guess is that you have all your kids in WL class and in the 1 1/2 hr. blocks you get a lot of things accomplished and a lot of kids developed. My guess also is that you are figuring out a way to better utilize this time to get them even more developed.
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
From one coach to another you are correct. I do have the majority of them in class. However we do not use any class time to work football fundamentals. Obviously we lift, do speed work, programmed and reactionary agility, plyos and other stuff to physically develop them just as I am sure you did.

I am not going to cheat although I am sure it will be happening all over the state at some schools.

But that 21 a day Skill Development was such a valuable tool in getting them where they needed to be as smart, technique savvy, fundamentally sound football players. 10 full team days won't touch it Coach. Too many kids all at once and not enough days to progress incrementally. Coach I don't think many of these coaches are going to realize how much they gave up until the actual season rolls around. Then it will be evident, but too late

But I will live with.......kicking and screaming......but live with it nonetheless.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
From one coach to another you are correct. I do have the
majority of them in class. However we do not use any class time to work
football fundamentals. Obviously we lift, do speed work, programmed and
reactionary agility, plyos and other stuff to physically develop them
just as I am sure you did.

That is what I meant. I did not mean that you were taking them out and doing FB specific drills. And you are correct in that some will. I will admit that during the season I used Mondays to look at the previous Fri. night game film for the first half of class before we did our strength, agility and speed work and Fri. as a review. I wish HUDL had been around. To me this is the biggest innovation to date. Now you can get the film instantly, grade it, make comments and send it to your kids ASAP. Plus see how much time they do film study. I go back to the days of Super 8, 16 mm, VCR, etc. I would have loved HUDL.
 

themerlin

Redshirt
Aug 8, 2008
78
1
0
This was posted on another site by a coach and I thought it was interesting in comparison to the other arguments here.

First: The point that we actually get less time seems swayed by the number of days. If you look at the math, which I have done a lot since coming up from GA, you really don't get that many reps for your kids because of position breakdowns per week. For instance: I looked at last year's calendar and we got 9.5 weeks of practice (subtracted 1 for spring break). Each position group got approximately 2 days per week. That gives each kid 19 days of practice right? Not really because I don't get any of my JV or second teamers out there and not technically all of my 1st teamers every time (21 not 22 remember). In fact that is less than half our team (only about 1/3 of our kids 9-11 grade). That means I could divide this number by 3 but for the sake of argument I will only divide by 2. That brings us back to 9.5. This is very close to 10. I think having everyone together working on the same things, JV kids competing for varsity spots, working together right before summer break (and getting momentum going into that break), getting all your coaches on the same page together as one, and just in general being a team goes a lot further. Its not like all the state's that have Spring practice kill each other and hit every day. Most of them use only 10 days (and Coach Tudryn says that makes a difference compared to NC) and they use it for install and evaluation just like we will. The only argument I see that makes logical sense is the QB reps will go down. This can be a problem for a lot of us and may need to be addressed, but I think the needs of the team outweigh the needs of one position.

Second: I also talk to a lot of other football coaches and they really like the idea. None of them are lazy and I REALLY defy any of you to say you outwork me. You might be better but it will never be because you work harder. Promise you that (I know I said I wouldn't get upset but this argument is a little personal). I think this argument that the coaches don't like it is based on who you talk to. If you only talk to like minds then you come away thinking EVERYONE must feel that way. It is clear the guys on this board agree it is not a good idea. I was in the meeting last Feb. Most of the coaches in there were definitely for it and there were several 4A coaches in there as well as all classifications. However, Chris is right about the majority being outside talking.

Third: The argument that NC football is somehow behind other states because of a lack of spring practice is erased by the argument you guys make that we had more days. If we had more days shouldn't our kids be more polished than other states? I maintain the reason the other states are more polished (if this is true) is that football is more important to their culture as the kids are raised (GA, SC, AL there is no doubt it is). Our coaches do a great job of preparing our kids in 4 years (really believe we have some of the best coaches here because you have to love it to coach in NC) but we can't overcome 12-13 years other states give their kids in development prior to high school because its so important to them. Also, the average facilities in other states FAR exceed the average facilities in NC. This helps coaches develop kids. There is not much we can do about this around the state. We have to just affect our area individually and make it better little by little.

Lastly: I think this is the best avenue to get kids involved in all sports and direct the championship mentality. The spring sports will have kids not worried about missing football days and they won't be distracted. We can support our kids in those sports better too. If they are fortunate enough to still be playing baseball (track championships will be done) then I think learning to play for a championship outweighs a few days of practice. Also, with this format if I have a few kids that don't make it out then I have plenty of young guys to get reps. If I am using 21 then that ability is limited.

I know there are several reasons and arguments for both. This is just my opinion.
 

btango

All-Conference
Nov 5, 2003
120,102
4,779
0
The sensible thing would be to allow the 21 player to continue as is but the start date would be after the Christmas holiday and also have the ten day unlimited player deal. The ten day allows all players (baseball playoffs will be their last week) but the coach can still work with the players that do not participate in other sports. A lot of the larger schools players only play one or two sports. ou see fewer one sport athletes at the smaller schools.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
themerlin. I agree with you on most of what you posted. However, I don't know how much you can do to develop a kid prior to his being in HS because of physical limitations due to growth cycles. The problem with getting them involved in a weight program is that you have to make sure it is one that only develops technique because overloading at that age is dangerous because of the physical issues during the growth years. Second, kids at that age have a high burn out rate and the strength program (even using light weights) has a tendency to burn kids out. I never involved kids in my strength, agility and speed development programs until they were in the 7th grade. At that age I was always very cautious about how much and how long because I certainly did not want to run any kid off. I did all of my coaching in a state SW of GA. I think that one thing that hurts FB is that all of a sudden several years back we started having AAU, Fall Baseball, Travel Ball, etc. and the coaches started telling the kids that if they wanted to earn a scholarship they needed to specialize. the truth is most (vast majority) of those kids are not good enough to earn a scholarship plus the fact that FB requires more off season work than these kids want to do. I use to tell my kids that if they ever wanted to be a good FB player they had to be in my WL class. The kids who specialize in the other sports don't think they have to do this, although it is just as beneficial to them as it is to the FB players. Most of them who make it in college playing those other sports would come back and tell the kids to sign up because they were required to do it in college. Even at that most of them did not believe them. The other sport athletes who did take my class went to college well much better because they took the class and were better prepared for what was to follow. Plus it helped me to recruit many kids who otherwise would probably never played FB. BTW basketball players make great receivers.
 

themerlin

Redshirt
Aug 8, 2008
78
1
0
I just posted that from another site but I don't see anything in that about anything prior to high school. I thought it pertained to this debate. Not sure what your referencing in regard to WL. I do agree technique comes first but I think most people agree to that. The question is who does it.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
The Merlin- thanks for posting that info It was an interesting read of the other viewpoint. QB reps were exactly the angle I was coming from because that is the position my son plays. One other option is to seek out QB coaches on my own dime and that will be considered but my son has played for 2 coaches and they both taught/teach a little differently. Camps are another option but I don't know of anything during the school year and would not give up a week of summer workouts for a football camp elsewhere unless the head coach recommended it. Jan to May is a long time for a young QB without instruction ....and ..... We can throw in the yard till the cows come home but I am not qualified to teach and certainly don't have the still set.
 

BlueVols

Senior
Jun 27, 2003
1,633
446
0
Coach Brett Chappell of Pisgah is quoted in today's Waynesville paper (sadly I can not link the article since they don't run everything from the print edition to the web -welcome to 1989) of being an advocate for the spring practice proposal and live televising of games.

"We have been behind the times with other states and this has been long overdue" said Chappell. "I and a lot of other coaches have been lobbying for a long time for these changes. Instead of turning away kids in the spring for football skill development, I can now work directly with all my kids. It's not actual spring football practice because we're not going to suit up in full pads and we're not going to hit."

He goes on to talk about how neat it will be for the Tuscola-Pisgah game to be picked up by Time-Warner cable in the future.

Obviously good coaches disagree here. I am familiar with both DKJ and Brett so I find it interesting the divergence of philosophy on this subject.

As for televising the THS-PHS game, Time Warner cable is no where near WNC and I don't see the game having much interest beyond a novelty in Raleigh and Charlotte. I think what you will see is Butler vs Mallard Creek or some sort of made for TV Wake Co vs Mecklenburg Co series
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
Not sure what your referencing in regard to WL.

Weight Lifting.

The reference to prior to MS is the fact that organized FB begins at the age of 6 or 7. I have actually seen some parents put their kids in this age group in speed development programs.

This post was edited on 12/10 8:55 PM by No.1RamsFan
 

themerlin

Redshirt
Aug 8, 2008
78
1
0
Lol. I knew what WL meant. I wasn't sure why you were referring to it prior to high school but I understand what you are saying now.
 

btango

All-Conference
Nov 5, 2003
120,102
4,779
0
Originally posted by BlueVols:
Coach Brett Chappell of Pisgah is quoted in today's Waynesville paper (sadly I can not link the article since they don't run everything from the print edition to the web -welcome to 1989) of being an advocate for the spring practice proposal and live televising of games.

"We have been behind the times with other states and this has been long overdue" said Chappell. "I and a lot of other coaches have been lobbying for a long time for these changes. Instead of turning away kids in the spring for football skill development, I can now work directly with all my kids. It's not actual spring football practice because we're not going to suit up in full pads and we're not going to hit."

He goes on to talk about how neat it will be for the Tuscola-Pisgah game to be picked up by Time-Warner cable in the future.

Obviously good coaches disagree here. I am familiar with both DKJ and Brett so I find it interesting the divergence of philosophy on this subject.

As for televising the THS-PHS game, Time Warner cable is no where near WNC and I don't see the game having much interest beyond a novelty in Raleigh and Charlotte. I think what you will see is Butler vs Mallard Creek or some sort of made for TV Wake Co vs Mecklenburg Co series
That was a player right there!

If an area does not have TWC any other local entity can set up a deal to run the games on that area's cable. So the local cable provider can do this so that those kids get a chance to play on tv.

My hope is that this will lead to allowing a NC team to play on live national tv on a Saturday.

One of the main reasons for going away from the 21 limit was that players were being turned away from doing skills. One coach that has a passing offense said it would be very tough on him getting a QB ready as he felt they needed more hands on work with the coach. I really thought they should have left the 21 limit practices in place and then did the ten days allowing for both not a pick or choose. The argument is that they want "kids to be kids". That is great but being a kid in some areas leads to bad things. Coaches and structure are good for these young men.
 

cvaughan598

Redshirt
Jan 11, 2005
3,828
1
0
DKJ,

In Forsyth we have 15 days of exams for various reasons that take up those days... So Forsyth now has yet another setback in being able to compete with the rest of the state. This Spring football makes sense to some, and in theory is have does to me, but I don't have all of my players in WL classes. Still trying to get that accomplished, and now we will not have skill development, and we aren't sure if we are even going to be allowed to have the 10 days of spring ball. We just got jobbed in this decision.
 

DKJ_rivals218838

Redshirt
May 30, 2001
2,218
33
0
As I said Coach, at worst it should have been an either/or proposition. I have no problem with others having a differing philosophy than me, I just don't like being forced into somthing that I do not feel is in the best interest of all programs in the State and certainly a horrible choice for some as you alluded to with your situation.

I still do not think this was well though out and no doubt it is an effort to get full contact Spring practice which is not going to happen. As a result we all get 50 less days to work with our kids.
 

No.1RamsFan

Redshirt
Nov 20, 2005
5,881
0
0
In Forsyth we have 15 days of exams

Wow. That is a first for me. No MS FB. Open enrollment. Now 15 days for exams. Incredible.
 

FBcoach6

Redshirt
Mar 3, 2004
824
5
0
Here is a thought. For those worried about losing time developing their sons as qbs: pay the coach to tutor your son away from school. Football coaches have been taken for granted in North Carolina, teachers too for that matter. No one works any harder than me in the off season for free. I never even thought about it much because I enjoy what I do. But it's time to stop doing things for free in education in North Carolina. It's time to pay teachers and coaches for their time. There are plenty of us that have worked 20 years for free in the spring and summer. That time is over. Wanting to win and have a hobby needs to take a back seat for a while.
 

Lawn12Dog

All-Conference
Sep 13, 2013
3,498
2,140
0
Totally agree FB. For the money the football brings in coaches are not paid anywhere near their worth. I would do that in a heartbeat if it's legal.
 

FBcoach6

Redshirt
Mar 3, 2004
824
5
0
It cannot be illegal. If the nchsaa says a coach cannot be paid privately to work on the side off of school property, they are overstepping their legal bounds.