Stalling

[LeviHainesGoat]

You're not wrong but you're spitting into the wind.

We have complained about the refs not calling stalling, every week for decades. At some point we need to accept that it won't be called anywhere near the way we think it should be.

Even the obtuse, glacially moving NCAA realized this and changed the rules for it. Every mandatory stall call -- boundary calls, ankle 5-count, mat return 5-count, etc. -- all of them are mandatory stalls because the refs wouldn't call stalling otherwise. (One could also argue the Heil Rule -- the 3-count danger zone takedown -- is another anti-stalling rule.)

The obvious next rule change is the freestyle stepout rule with some adjustment to folkstyle action. It would eliminate the ambiguity of the current boundary stall rule and make the ref's life easier. And nearly all college wrestlers have trained freestyle for 5-10 years, so they know how to work action back to center. Another benefit: fewer stoppages = more continuous action, and more emphasis on conditioning.

I’d be fine with a step out but yea I was just spitballing last night

 

[PaWrestlingFan7]

No I've seen a few matches that have prolonged scrambles that end in zero points after 3 minutes.

Case in point, SVN quarterfinal with Swiderski.

 

[SRATH]

Rules are just words on a piece of paper. Ultimately, it's the refs who define the parameters. What we witnessed this weekend was pretty much how the game is played now ... unfortunately.

I understand the refs not wanting to affect the outcome of a match. Still, by ignoring obvious stalling, they are, in fact, negatively affecting the outcome by increasing the odds of the passive wrestler getting to 50/50 rideouts.

I would be fine if the rideouts were eliminated.

 

[gslachta]

LL, any of our guys, and any guy on any team with a slight lead, will flee the opponent’s desperation lunges in the last 20-30 seconds.

In our case, even though our guy often has the slight lead because the opponent stalled the first six minutes, the crowd boos him lustily.
Were they booing him or yelling Luke, Luke! That’s what I was hearing but wasn’t sure.

Just pick a time… 1:00, 1:30, or 2:00… or right after the scramble that might be in progress at that exact time.

 

[BriantheLion]

What needs to be fixed immediately is the Duke scenario of not letting the action play out.

what happened there can never happen again.

And guys shouldn't have to wait on the line for 5 seconds for the other wrestler to stroll around before deciding to go back to center. After an out of bounds call.

I think that, if the second wrestler doesn’t get back to center within five seconds of the first, it should be a stall point (unless he needs injury time).

so has anyone asked the ref about why he blew the whistle to stop PJ match he had a chance to get more points even a pin!

Ya I thought that if a wrestler had his opponent on his back he was allowed to continue the sequence to earn a pin… perhaps that’s only for a tech, not SV… but I think it should be both!

 

[lookleftgoright]

Get rid of the finger lacing.

While we are frustrated with the lack of stall calls, I’ll say there were more than I expected and we won two NC bouts on stall calls. That in itself is telling imho. The evolution is moving in the right direction……..even if it is too slow.

Other than Vega, the more aggressive guy won every match.

How about we get rid of the stall warning and just give a point for every time it is called. You have 24 seconds to take a shot in the NBA. They do not say "hey you did not take a shot -this is a warning. They just loose the ball. Same with Football. If you do not run a play in the time specified, then you get a penalty. Not a warning.

Also, if no one scores, then the official has to award a point to one of the guys. The other thing they could do shave a failing to engage call. If a guy is backing up with 3 seconds and running away - that is failure to engage and it is a point.

We all remember the match at the Olympics where the Mongolian backed up for 2 seconds at the end of the bronze medal match and got hit for stalling and it cost him a point. Freestyle does not mess around. You do not see much stalling in freestyle. That was when the Mongolian coaches did their little strip dance.

Another thing is to eliminate the video review if both officials on the mat feel the call made during the match was correct. If 2 officials who are on the mat think the call is correct, why are we giving all the power to make the call to officials who are not on the mat? Just like freestyle - if 2 of the 3 agree, then the call stands.

These are really simple fixes. I like all the edge of the mat wrestling, so I am against a push out rule.

 

[Efejle]

I'll keep my thoughts on stalling to myself until after I figure out what a takedown is...

We certainly learned what it was not, at least in Cleveland with 15 thousand idiots booing everything related to Penn State. We learned that putting a guy in a cradle and rolling him on his back for a two count, is not actually a takedown. Pretty certain this rule will never be implemented again though.

 

[mcpat]

My idea I just came up with and haven’t yet thought of the downside:

Takedowns can only be scored by the initiating wrestler. Get control after the other guy shot? Too bad. No points. Back to neutral.

Would that incentivize offense? No downside to initiating offense. In fact, you’d better be the guy doing it.

 

[El_Jefe]

I think that, if the second wrestler doesn’t get back to center within five seconds of the first, it should be a stall point (unless he needs injury time).

Ya I thought that if a wrestler had his opponent on his back he was allowed to continue the sequence to earn a pin… perhaps that’s only for a tech, not SV… but I think it should be both!

How about both guys have to be back within 5 sec of the whistle?

And yes, continuation toward a pin applies in SV.

 

[El_Jefe]

My idea I just came up with and haven’t yet thought of the downside:

Takedowns can only be scored by the initiating wrestler. Get control after the other guy shot? Too bad. No points. Back to neutral.

Would that incentivize offense? No downside to initiating offense. In fact, you’d better be the guy doing it.

God no. Factories will need to be built to supply all the bricks being thrown.

 

[a_mshaffer]

My idea I just came up with and haven’t yet thought of the downside:

Takedowns can only be scored by the initiating wrestler. Get control after the other guy shot? Too bad. No points. Back to neutral.

Would that incentivize offense? No downside to initiating offense. In fact, you’d better be the guy doing it.

the fake shots or half shots then become subjective?

 

[Nitlion1986]

How about we get rid of the stall warning and just give a point for every time it is called. You have 24 seconds to take a shot in the NBA. They do not say "hey you did not take a shot -this is a warning. They just loose the ball. Same with Football. If you do not run a play in the time specified, then you get a penalty. Not a warning.

Also, if no one scores, then the official has to award a point to one of the guys. The other thing they could do shave a failing to engage call. If a guy is backing up with 3 seconds and running away - that is failure to engage and it is a point.

We all remember the match at the Olympics where the Mongolian backed up for 2 seconds at the end of the bronze medal match and got hit for stalling and it cost him a point. Freestyle does not mess around. You do not see much stalling in freestyle. That was when the Mongolian coaches did their little strip dance.

Another thing is to eliminate the video review if both officials on the mat feel the call made during the match was correct. If 2 officials who are on the mat think the call is correct, why are we giving all the power to make the call to officials who are not on the mat? Just like freestyle - if 2 of the 3 agree, then the call stands.

These are really simple fixes. I like all the edge of the mat wrestling, so I am against a push out rule.

The mat official and side official review their own calls during the season and never seem able to reverse a call.

 

[mcpat]

God no. Factories will need to be built to supply all the bricks being thrown.

No more bricks

 

[Indylion]

Tom Brands following the PSU match on how he teaches stalling. Just watch the first 90 seconds. Click here

 

[KH1984]

LL didn't back up for 4 minutes, that's complete bs. LL backed up for maybe the last 30 seconds of the match and he they called him for one Stalling. Go re-watch it.

Correct

 

[KH1984]

What you suggest for the end of period 1 introduces massive uncertainty. Now while investors do not like uncertainty, we fans should embrace it as a means of forcing action. If a wrestler is very uncertain about getting dinged with a stall call, he will have ample incentive to at least make it look like he is active. I’ve been watching college wrestling since the 1960’s and have never given much credence to stall calls. [hell yeah I’m a slow learner]. That changed for me at the BiGs and in Cleveland. Certainly a single stall call makes a huge difference in mat strategy for BOTH wrestlers. Your idea is a good one …. but, I doubt it will be adopted. Cael’s support of a step out point might get adopted …… especially because it aligns folk style with free style a bit better. Let’s see!

I have been a ref for 35 years (albeit not an NCAA ref). I don't think wholesale rule change is necessary at all...I think they need to focus on stalling as a "point of emphasis" and by simple examples start calling it more effectively.

What I HATE is watching a match where one guy is taking attempts, taking ground, stalking the other guy for an entire match and the opponent circles away with NO stalling called. Then after accruing a 10-2 shot count deficit the non-aggressor locks in ear to ear and marches the guy toward the OB like the strongmen trying to pull a bus, NEVER actually attempting to score and the guy who has taken by far the most legit shots gets banged for stalling when the other guy still did not attempt a legit shot OR open himself by trying to actually score.

Fix THAT and you'd be headed in the right direction.

Well...that AND determine an actual shot (slapping the leg doesn't count)

 

[KH1984]

after Dukes no TD against Nebby the next week I saw 2 TD identical to PJ and the refs gave them both!

Simple...

They have screwed the pooch all year on the "reaction time" which is a relatively new addition. Eventually, it will be like the NFL with a completed catch where you had to catch it, survive the ground, carry it with you to the sideline, and then carry it home to sleep with before it became a catch.

It was easier back when it was instant...for fans, for wrestlers, for refs...You saw it and it was counted. How long is "reaction time"? If you have a cradle locked, break a guy to his hip, that's 3 all day. Get rid of OR identify more effectively "reaction time"

Personally, I think, go back to the old way!!!

 

[KH1984]

so has anyone asked the ref about why he blew the whistle to stop PJ match he had a chance to get more points even a pin!

Think that was a "brick" stoppage

VERY BAD STOPPAGE

They are supposed to allow significant action carry out before stopping to review.

They screwed that match up...Period

 

[PSUPetch]

Hello, I’m new here been reading for awhile but wanted to start commenting. I think one way to stop this is call stalling earlier and more frequently. For example, if McGowan got called twice in the first period then he would’ve had to start attack more and there wouldn’t be enough time for LL to back up for four minutes so it should create more action and if both guys refuse to engage and just kinda stare at each other than hit both and if necessary just dq both but that is extreme cases. Point is you don’t want to punish a guy for taking ground and trying to engage but the other disengages or backs away so you just call stalling more

LL didn't back up for 4 minutes, that's complete bs. LL backed up for maybe the last 30 seconds of the match and he they called him for one Stalling. Go re-watch it.

It was a hypothetical...Levi was saying that if stalling was called more often on McGowan early, then he would have to engage, and LL would not be able to just back up the remainder of the match...not that Luke actually did that in the championship match.

 

[AgSurfer]

You're not wrong but you're spitting into the wind.

We have complained about the refs not calling stalling, every week for decades. At some point we need to accept that it won't be called anywhere near the way we think it should be.

Even the obtuse, glacially moving NCAA realized this and changed the rules for it. Every mandatory stall call -- boundary calls, ankle 5-count, mat return 5-count, etc. -- all of them are mandatory stalls because the refs wouldn't call stalling otherwise. (One could also argue the Heil Rule -- the 3-count danger zone takedown -- is another anti-stalling rule.)

The obvious next rule change is the freestyle stepout rule with some adjustment to folkstyle action. It would eliminate the ambiguity of the current boundary stall rule and make the ref's life easier. And nearly all college wrestlers have trained freestyle for 5-10 years, so they know how to work action back to center. Another benefit: fewer stoppages = more continuous action, and more emphasis on conditioning.

I think there is a big problem because of how refs are evaluated and chosen for big events. The coaches have a LOT to say about who gets to ref when and where. So when a ref throws a stall call on an Iowa or Nebraska wrestler, do you think Brands or Manning are going to just forget it ever happened? I honestly believe the participation of the coaches in the ref selection process has a lot to do with why you don't see more stalling calls.

 

[JakkL]

I'd still like to see a stall called on 1 guy after a 0-0 1st period at refs choice. People say what about when both guys are actively working, but no one was able to finish. To that I say that's less than 5% scenario. 0-0 1st periods make wrestling boring.

 

[tullfan68]

as for stalling a guy can back up 5 minutes not get called but the guy leading can back up in the last 30 seconds and get called,makes no sense!

 

[JoePaMajorCFBrecord409Ws]

as for stalling a guy can back up 5 minutes not get called but the guy leading can back up in the last 30 seconds and get called,makes no sense!

Part of the problem is that Folk in general, and the NCAA Rulebook specifically, does not define the various forms of stalling and at what point that specific form of stalling is to be called which makes it difficult for officials imo. Stalling should be a large general rule with many sub-titles: "Fleeing the Mat Area"; "Stepping Out while Engaged"; "Fleeing Opponent / Refusing to Engage", "Passivity" (Failure to initiate any Offensive Activity.... including constantly giving ground when engaged), etc.... and there are many more.

What constitutes these various forms of stalling and penalties needs to be better defined.

 

[tullfan68]

refs can call stalling anytime they just refuse!

 

[Corby2]

refs can call stalling anytime they just refuse!

And it's been an issue for many many years we are the insane ones thinking it's gonna change. We are watching them not call it over and over yet we are expecting them to start now. We need a step out rule .

 

[JoePaMajorCFBrecord409Ws]

And it's been an issue for many many years we are the insane ones thinking it's gonna change. We are watching them not call it over and over yet we are expecting them to start now. We need a step out rule .

Exactly. It isn't going to change until you take Mat Officials out of the Stalling/Passivity Rule-Making business which they are in because of the silly, purely subjective and vague way the rules are written. In fact, they really aren't written as a rule, or set of rules, at all - what the Rulebook says in effect is that 100% of the power and authority to make, and enforce, the rules in regards to stalling/passivity is left in the hands of the Mat Official (which is really absurd in regards to how such an important, match impacting all encompassing topic and "Rule" will be called [i.e., left entirely in the hands of the Mat Official] - it will result in zero consistency and pure individual subjectivity, which is precisely what we have.).

Stalling includes, among others:

• Fleeing (Refusal to engage, constant backing and circling, dancing & weaving, breaking ties by fleeing backwards and making opponent pursue)
• Intentionally going OB while engaged
• Fleeing The Mat (going OB unengaged)
• Passivity (Failure to Initiate Offensive Activity, especially as compared to opponent, over an extended period of time - i.e., 30-45 seconds. Usually will include stalmating for restarts, hanging on head/shoulder/elbow, etc...)
• Top-Stalling (riding in a manner aimed at accumulating RT, but is not improving your position to score offensive exposure points from top position.).
• Bottom Stalling (not working to escape, but only looking to stop your opponent from turning you)

Here's the thing - Neutral Stallers typically link multiple forms of stalling. Edge-Wrestling is a combination of Fleeing, Passivity and sometimes Intentionally Going OB Engaged or Fleeing The Mat. If a wrestler does any or a combination for an extended period, it is Stalling and it needs to be called repeatedly until the offending wrestler starts wrestling.

 

[Corby2]

Exactly. It isn't going to change until you take Mat Officials out of the Stalling/Passivity Rule-Making business which they are in because of the silly, purely subjective and vague way the rules are written. In fact, they really aren't written as a rule, or set of rules, at all - what the Rulebook says in effect is that 100% of the power and authority to make, and enforce, the rules in regards to stalling/passivity is left in the hands of the Mat Official (which is really absurd in regards to how such an important, match impacting all encompassing topic and "Rule" will be called [i.e., left entirely in the hands of the Mat Official] - it will result in zero consistency and pure individual subjectivity, which is precisely what we have.).

Stalling includes, among others:

• Fleeing (Refusal to engage, constant backing and circling, dancing & weaving, breaking ties by fleeing backwards and making opponent pursue)
• Internationally going OB while engaged
• Fleeing The Mat (going OB unengaged)
• Passivity (Failure to Initiate Offensive Activity, especially as compared to opponent, over an extended period of time - i.e., 30-45 seconds. Usually will include stalmating for restarts, hanging on head/shoulder/elbow, etc...)
• Top-Stalling (riding in a manner aimed at accumulating RT, but is not improving your position to score offensive exposure points from top position.).
• Bottom Stalling (not working to escape, but only looking to stop your opponent from turning you)

Here's the thing - Neutral Stallers typically link multiple forms of stalling. Edge-Wrestling is a combination of Fleeing, Passivity and sometimes Intentionally Going OB Engaged. If a wrestler does any or a combination for an extended period, it is Stalling and it needs to be called repeatedly until the offending wrestler starts wrestling.

Great analysis. Remember they said this year the top guy must work for a turn or he's stalling. And after 2 weeks they forgot about that one. We need a step out so bad . If they don't put that rule in next summer for the 27-28 season I have no more hope for wrestling. We cant keep allowing guys to use the edge as a safe zone.

 

[JoePaMajorCFBrecord409Ws]

Great analysis. Remember they said this year the top guy must work for a turn or he's stalling. And after 2 weeks they forgot about that one. We need a step out so bad . If they don't put that rule in next summer for the 27-28 season I have no more hope for wrestling. We cant keep allowing guys to use the edge as a safe zone.

In addition, they need to make a mandatory call for stalemate specialists - if one wrestler initiates 3 consecutive offensive attacks that result in scrambles and are ultimately "Stalemated" (or via "potentially dangerous") by the Mat Official, the Defensive Wrestler is hit with an automatic Stall/Passivity Call after 3rd consecutive "Stalemate" call of opponent's attack that resulted in a scramble (i.e., protracted action that had to be stopped by mat Official.).

 

[BobPSU92]

refs can call stalling anytime they just refuse!

Our opponents are stalling, the refs are stalling. Makes it hard for our boys to wrestle.

 

[El_Jefe]

And it's been an issue for many many years we are the insane ones thinking it's gonna change. We are watching them not call it over and over yet we are expecting them to start now. We need a step out rule .

The boundary stall call was added for the 2016 season. Which means that 10 years ago the NCAA figured out that the refs won't call stalling.

Some fans are far slower than the NCAA to accept this fact.

 

[Corby2]

In addition, they need to make a mandatory call for stalemate specialists - if one wrestler initiates 3 consecutive offensive attacks that result in scrambles and are ultimately "Stalemated" (or via "potentially dangerous") by the Mat Official, the Defensive Wrestler is hit with an automatic Stall/Passivity Call after 3rd consecutive "Stalemate" call of opponent's attack that resulted in a scramble (i.e., protracted action that had to be stopped by mat Official.).

Was just saying this to a friend last week . Maybe we need to start counting locks around the leg and once you get 3 to the other guys zero it's 1 point. We have to do something the 3 point takedown didn't do it. I also think when the defensive guy intentionally puts himself in the rubber knee position by diving over for the ankle to force the stalemate that should be 1 point. They let that position go in freestyle and it rarely results in a knee injury

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Was just saying this to a friend last week . Maybe we need to start counting locks around the leg and once you get 3 to the other guys zero it's 1 point. We have to do something the 3 point takedown didn't do it. I also think when the defensive guy intentionally puts himself in the rubber knee position by diving over for the ankle to force the stalemate that should be 1 point. They let that position go in freestyle and it rarely results in a knee injury

I have some theories about the 3 point TD and stalling. I will publish the blog post about it tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[LeviHainesGoat]

Was just saying this to a friend last week . Maybe we need to start counting locks around the leg and once you get 3 to the other guys zero it's 1 point. We have to do something the 3 point takedown didn't do it. I also think when the defensive guy intentionally puts himself in the rubber knee position by diving over for the ankle to force the stalemate that should be 1 point. They let that position go in freestyle and it rarely results in a knee injury

@Corby2 not related to this but are you ever on the intermat forum?

 

[Corby2]

@Corby2 not related to this but are you ever on the intermat forum?

No Joe Caprino who's Bob Dole and the mod is a POS liar so I don't go there . I don't even read it. When I did podcasts he would DM me and mailed me Indiana wrestle gear. Then he started coming at me and I said what's this about you used to DM me and mail me stuff and he said I have never DM you or mailed you anything.So I posted the DMs and he blocked me . He just wants to be cool. He did this for years with Flo and once Willie bought Intermat he started DM him constantly. He's a wannabe loser. I saw him face to face and he obviously stood in the corner and didn't say anything and I'm 5"6 I'm not intimidating

 

[NittPicker]

An oldie but a goodie. I'm sure most of you have probably seen this but it's a stalling thread and it's the off season. Anything to pass the time....

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I know this is more of an issue at 285, but this stat exemplifies the lack of offense so prevalent today:

BarSeries​

• 
  Posted 1 hour ago
  This is a wild stat
  
  
  
  • 1.3k

 

[Coastal2]

No Joe Caprino who's Bob Dole and the mod is a POS liar so I don't go there . I don't even read it. When I did podcasts he would DM me and mailed me Indiana wrestle gear. Then he started coming at me and I said what's this about you used to DM me and mail me stuff and he said I have never DM you or mailed you anything.So I posted the DMs and he blocked me . He just wants to be cool. He did this for years with Flo and once Willie bought Intermat he started DM him constantly. He's a wannabe loser. I saw him face to face and he obviously stood in the corner and didn't say anything and I'm 5"6 I'm not intimidating

Kind of makes you wonder if Joe Caprino would have any alts with the same intials....hmmm.

 

[yekrut321]

An oldie but a goodie. I'm sure most of you have probably seen this but it's a stalling thread and it's the off season. Anything to pass the time....

Manatee style has become a thing! Their camps must be packed!

 

[El_Jefe]

I know this is more of an issue at 285, but this stat exemplifies the lack of offense so prevalent today:

BarSeries​

• 
  Posted 1 hour ago
  This is a wild stat
  
  • 1.3k

That's a little misleading because he only wrestled 5 matches -- the 6th was an MFF from Ford Focus. Still, really bad.

For comparison, offensive juggernaut Gabe Arnold scored 6 takedowns in 7 matches while wrestling up 2 weights, and all of them were in regulation.

 

[PSUbluTX]

I know this is more of an issue at 285, but this stat exemplifies the lack of offense so prevalent today:

BarSeries​

• 
  Posted 1 hour ago
  This is a wild stat
  
  • 1.3k

I heard that in Iowa they refer to guys with numbers like that as "mesenbrinks", as in, "that dude lights up the scoreboard like a total mesenbrink!"