Starting 5 Talk

[Uk2k4]

“But look at them there stats wheeler had a good game them other guys suck!” is not a valid argument. Wheeler killed the entire offensive flow.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Nobody is saying Wheeler is Ulis or Wall or Knight or Fox. All he has to do is be Epps or Turner or Teague. Yes, those are the ONLY UK starting PG with a ring in the past 40+ seasons. And none of them were "elite" PGs, all had issues.
Epps wasn't a scorer, nor was he going to blow past anyone. But he was tough as nails and he played his role.
Turner, could blow by you and he could finish. But shooting, that's another subject. Although his 3pt shooting improved, he was never a "threat" from out there, and his FT shooting was plain BAD.
Teague, another guy who was not a good 3pt shooter, and honestly may have been the 7th best player on a team that only went 7 deep.
Wheeler can be to this UK team, what those guys were. Guard your man, get the ball to Delk/Twon, Shep/Padgett, Oscar/Toppin, be tough and if necessary clutch but more important be steady, but otherwise don't try to be "the man" and do too much.

 

[TomTraubertsBlues]

Wheeler would be perfect if he would stop shooting outside jumpers and be more discerning with his passes. My guess is Wallace will win the job at some point, just like SGA did.

 

[jameslee32]

Fred who?

Fred Rick.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Nobody is saying Wheeler is Ulis or Wall or Knight or Fox. All he has to do is be Epps or Turner or Teague. Yes, those are the ONLY UK starting PG with a ring in the past 40+ seasons. And none of them were "elite" PGs, all had issues.
Epps wasn't a scorer, nor was he going to blow past anyone. But he was tough as nails and he played his role.
Turner, could blow by you and he could finish. But shooting, that's another subject. Although his 3pt shooting improved, he was never a "threat" from out there, and his FT shooting was plain BAD.
Teague, another guy who was not a good 3pt shooter, and honestly may have been the 7th best player on a team that only went 7 deep.
Wheeler can be to this UK team, what those guys were. Guard your man, get the ball to Delk/Twon, Shep/Padgett, Oscar/Toppin, be tough and if necessary clutch but more important be steady, but otherwise don't try to be "the man" and do too much.

Every PG besides Ulis that you mentioned had at least 6 inches on Wheeler. Ulis was a good shooter. So Wheeler either needs to develop a consistent outside shot or grow 6 inches over night. Neither one seems to be in the realm of possibility at this point.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Let me be clear, I am all for Wheeler starting. He is a good basketball player. My issue is with his amount of usage and when he is used. I’m good with starting Wheeler and pushing the tempo, but Cal has to be able to make those in-game adjustments and has to be able to put him on the bench for key minutes of the game and go with a PG that can give you a different look when you are in a halfcourt/rock fight type game.

There is simply no reason Wheeler plays 30+ minutes a game when we have other backcourt weapons available.

But can Cal and Wheeler handle Wheeler only playing 20-25 minutes a game? Can they handle him on the bench for long stretches? Can they handle not having the ball in Wheeler’s hands late in close low possession/halfcourt games?

Can Wheeler handle it without sulking? Can Cal handle the sulking? Can both do what is best for the team and not the individual, if it is clear what must be done to win?

We shall see.

 

[CB3UK]

Steel sharpens steel

 

[kelzer]

See, that's just false. When a defense sags, they take away your passing lane and are then able to use those sagging defenders to double on anyone else cutting through the lane.

You guys are talking about ulisisnotmyman being a ball watcher, but he's right, you guys are wrong.

Yeah, wheeler went 4-8 from the field, but he was open all game. He refused to shoot a ton of open shots and he wasted the entire shot clock trying to find an open man on way too many possessions.

No, it's not all on Wheeler, but he's short, can't beat his man off the dribble in a half court set (especially a sagging defender) and he's not a good shooter from the outside.

Lastly, when you're the pg, you are the guy that has to create, you are the guy that is the qb of the offense, so you are going to get the bulk of the blame.

Wheeler did what he could, but he's limited and those limitations contributed to the losses at the end of the season.

All that from a guy that is a Wheeler fan. I like the kid, but I'm not going to ignore his limitations.

But here's the thing. The defense DIDN'T sag off of Wheeler. The entire notion that they came in with a game plan to sag off Wheeler is just nonsense. It didn't happen. It's a 100% false narrative.

Here's the entire game on youtube:

I just went through most of the game focusing on UK's offensive possessions when Wheeler was in, and can't find a single offensive possession where that was the case. The defenders on him were typically at or even beyond the 3pt line. I didn't see a single time his defender (or defenders when they went to zone) sagged off him and dared him to shoot. They were all as close as you would expect a defender to be when covering somebody capable of blowing past most anyone in college basketball. They all stayed close enough to challenge a jumper if he were to pull up for one.

Some examples:







Note that Grady's 3 with 47 seconds left in regulation was his first FG.

If anyone can find a possession supporting the sagging off claim, please post it. Pause the video at the beginning of the play, right click and choose "Copy video URL at current time", and post the URL here.

 

[kyjeff1]

But here's the thing. The defense DIDN'T sag off of Wheeler. The entire notion that they came in with a game plan to sag off Wheeler is just nonsense. It didn't happen. It's a 100% false narrative.

Here's the entire game on youtube:

I just went through most of the game focusing on UK's offensive possessions when Wheeler was in, and can't find a single offensive possession where that was the case. The defenders on him were typically at or even beyond the 3pt line. I didn't see a single time his defender (or defenders when they went to zone) sagged off him and dared him to shoot. They were all as close as you would expect a defender to be when covering somebody capable of blowing past most anyone in college basketball. They all stayed close enough to challenge a jumper if he were to pull up for one.

Some examples:







Note that Grady's 3 with 47 seconds left in regulation was his first FG.

If anyone can find a possession supporting the sagging off claim, please post it. Pause the video at the beginning of the play, right click and choose "Copy video URL at current time", and post the URL here.

So what you're saying is, Saint Peters played a standard defense on Wheeler and they won? They forced 6 turnovers? You don't think that's somehow a better defense for starting Wheeler this year over Wallace, do you?

The sagging defense might have been the SECT loss to UT, not positive and I'm not going to go back and watch any of those games, I don't want to torture myself like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a Wheeler fan, I absolutely love how hard he plays and how he dominates in transition. He can beat anybody down the court and get tough layups to go, but he has limitations. His lack of height and length is the biggest one. You better shoot it like Ulis if you're going to run point at Wheeler's size. He shoots the ball from his chest, he’s never going to be a consistently good shooter until he fixes that.

Play Wheeler 20 + mpg, but when he's struggling, get him out and put Wallace in.

 

[Cats192]

PG: Wheeler
SG: Wallace
SF: Livingston
PF: Toppin
C: Oscar

I hope we start Reeves at the 3. I think we need the shooting. But I expect Cal will go with Livingston to start the season.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

So what you're saying is, Saint Peters played a standard defense on Wheeler and they won? They forced 6 turnovers? You don't think that's somehow a better defense for starting Wheeler this year over Wallace, do you?

The sagging defense might have been the SECT loss to UT, not positive and I'm not going to go back and watch any of those games, I don't want to torture myself like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a Wheeler fan, I absolutely love how hard he plays and how he dominates in transition. He can beat anybody down the court and get tough layups to go, but he has limitations. His lack of height and length is the biggest one. You better shoot it like Ulis if you're going to run point at Wheeler's size. He shoots the ball from his chest, he’s never going to be a consistently good shooter until he fixes that.

Play Wheeler 20 + mpg, but when he's struggling, get him out and put Wallace in.

I agree. And on your last point, same goes for Wallace when he's struggling.

 

[rivercatinfl]

PG: Wheeler
SG: Wallace
SF: Livingston
PF: Toppin
C: Oscar

I hope we start Reeves at the 3. I think we need the shooting. But I expect Cal will go with Livingston to start the season.

I hope we start Reeves. Or at least he plays 25+ mpg. That cat can shoot the ball!

 

[kelzer]

I hope we start Reeves. Or at least he plays 25+ mpg. That cat can shoot the ball!

We still need to see if he can play D against real competition.

 

[kelzer]

So what you're saying is, Saint Peters played a standard defense on Wheeler and they won? They forced 6 turnovers? You don't think that's somehow a better defense for starting Wheeler this year over Wallace, do you?

The sagging defense might have been the SECT loss to UT, not positive and I'm not going to go back and watch any of those games, I don't want to torture myself like that.

Keep in mind, I'm a Wheeler fan, I absolutely love how hard he plays and how he dominates in transition. He can beat anybody down the court and get tough layups to go, but he has limitations. His lack of height and length is the biggest one. You better shoot it like Ulis if you're going to run point at Wheeler's size. He shoots the ball from his chest, he’s never going to be a consistently good shooter until he fixes that.

Play Wheeler 20 + mpg, but when he's struggling, get him out and put Wallace in.

I’m not sure all those 6 turnovers were Wheeler’s fault. I’d have to compare the play-by-play to the video to be sure, but I think one of them should have been called a hold that kept Oscar from getting to a lob, and another that went through Grady’s legs that to me looked like it should have gone to Grady.

At any rate, I agree with your conclusion. If in any given game Wheeler isn’t cutting it play Wallace. Absolutely.

 

[BBallin23]

Tshiebwe is a lock. Wallace is pretty much a lock, IMHO. Toppin and Wheeler are pretty close to locks.

The fifth starter is the wild card. I think Livingston gets the nod, but I could see Cal go big with Collins.

He has pretty much said so through the offseason. He talked about having multiple shot blockers and how it turns defense into offense. Cal wants to score in transition and is trying to find any way he can to speed up the game and avoid a halfcourt game.

That is a smart play, except imposing your will on the other team is not easy to do, especially when you want to run and they want to slow it down. He has to have a contingency plan. He needs to be smart enough to stick in some shooters when the game gets bogged down in a low possession “rock fight.” I’m hoping that is why he has Fredrick and Reeves on the team.

If he plays it right, I don’t care if he starts Collins with Toppin and Tshiebwe. That’s fine as long as he doesn’t stick with that lineup when it’s obviously not working.

Hopefully he uses the top 8 guys based on situations. Tshiebwe, Toppin, Wheeler, Wallace, Collins, Livingston, Fredrick, and Reeves all need to play a significant role (and significant minutes) on this team. Collins, Livingston, and Reeves all need to be playing lots of minutes regardless of which one starts. Fredrick probably needs to be on limited minutes based on his injury history. Cal needs to be selective with when and how long he plays him. Save him for the tourney, if possible.

He’s more than good enough to lead this team to a title. He was top 5 for the Jerry West award for a reason.

 

[reggis]

He sure led the team far last season.

He ran the team great last year until the injures hit us

 

[bucsrule8872]

He’s more than good enough to lead this team to a title. He was top 5 for the Jerry West award for a reason.

Hope you are right.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

I don't care who they start. Just play DEFENSE CONSISTENTLY!!

It all starts with D... 2012 was a great defensive team. I may be the only one but feel like the past 2 years teams would just penatrate our man D every rip with no answer.

I agree with you. Last season everyone was wanting Cal to run something like Arkansas runs but our offensive efficiency wasn't the problem it was the lack of defense stoppers. We didn't lose to St Peters because of our offense. When a UK team scores 79 points against a 11 loss MAAC opponent you should win easily.

 

[DelkBowl]

Great starting 5 thread.....

 

[UK67KU59]

PG: Wheeler
SG: Wallace
SF: Reeves
PF: Toppin
C: Oscar

 

[Lukasz0brzut]

Simply put- you cannot start Wheeler and put 2 forwards who greatest accolades are their vertical jump + oscar around him and be successful long term

Collins/Toppin can coexist on the floor together but not with Wheeler/Oscar IMO

 

[Montana81]

Simply put- you cannot start Wheeler and put 2 forwards who greatest accolades are their vertical jump + oscar around him and be successful long term

Collins/Toppin can coexist on the floor together but not with Wheeler/Oscar IMO

I’m actually buying on toppin being able to shoot it. His jumper has looked good every time we’ve seen him this preseason. He was above 40% in 4 games in the bahamas and finished 2nd to reeves in the 3pt contest.

That said i’m not buying on Collins being able to hit from deep. So i still agree with you.

Rest assured we’re still getting a healthy dose of Oscar/Collins/Toppin/Wheeler all on the court at the same time though. Cal has to find a way to keep everyone happy and getting Collins and Toppin minutes at the 4/3 is the only way to get Ware(who is deserving imo) minutes too.

I actually think we’ll see toppin at the 3 quite a bit.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Simply put- you cannot start Wheeler and put 2 forwards who greatest accolades are their vertical jump + oscar around him and be successful long term

Collins/Toppin can coexist on the floor together but not with Wheeler/Oscar IMO

Agreed.

If Wheeler and Tshiebwe have to be on the floor together, then the other three players need to be good perimeter shooters.

 

[Lukasz0brzut]

Agreed.

If Wheeler and Tshiebwe have to be on the floor together, then the other three players need to be good perimeter shooters.

Right. I really hope Toppin proves me wrong but I feel like he’s going to be dared to shoot all year - if he takes 3 a game need at least 1-

 

[DreadLox]

Right. I really hope Toppin proves me wrong but I feel like he’s going to be dared to shoot all year - if he takes 3 a game need at least 1-

Fortunately Toppin and Livingstone are good 3 pt shooters. Or have been in the pre-season. If that carries over into the season, then all of the hand-wringing will have been wasted.

Also, for some reason people seem to ignore/forget that OT is a good shooter from his favorite spot near the foul line. He isn't automatic, but he was close to 50%.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Fortunately Toppin and Livingstone are good 3 pt shooters. Or have been in the pre-season. If that carries over into the season, then all of the hand-wringing will have been wasted.

Also, for some reason people seem to ignore/forget that OT is a good shooter from his favorite spot near the foul line. He isn't automatic, but he was close to 50%.

I think Toppin will be fine at the 4. Just need really good shooters at the 2 and 3.

Just hope Cal can see that and doesn’t go overboard trying to get Toppin/Collins/Tshiebwe on the floor together to the point that our offensive spacing is nonexistent.

 

[BGCATFAN2012]

I'm not so sure we are gonna need our 3point shooting early on. Being as athletic as UK is this season we don't rely on it as much as some of our teams in the past. 12 to 15 a game is plenty and Cal will probably insist on pounding it down to Oscar Tshiebwe.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I'm not so sure we are gonna need our 3point shooting early on. Being as athletic as UK is this season we don't rely on it as much as some of our teams in the past. 12 to 15 a game is plenty and Cal will probably insist on pounding it down to Oscar Tshiebwe.

12 to 15 attempts is fine. 12 to 15 misses is what I am worried about.

We need the right players taking the shots. In order for the right players to take the shots, we need them on the floor.

This is why lineups and rotations are so important.

Wheeler, Collins, Toppin, and Tshiebwe are all players that I enjoy seeing on the floor, but I don’t want to see them all four together on the floor very much.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

12 to 15 attempts is fine. 12 to 15 misses is what I am worried about.

We need the right players taking the shots. In order for the right players to take the shots, we need them on the floor.

This is why lineups and rotations are so important.

Wheeler, Collins, Toppin, and Tshiebwe are all players that I enjoy seeing on the floor, but I don’t want to see them all four together on the floor very much.

Wheeler's shot looks better, still not great. So he may be a legit 30-33% guy this year. I know he made 30.8% last year, but TBO that was inflated when I think 12.5% of his makes were "banked-in" (so accidents).

I was saying last year, Oscar's form was good, and he's certainly strong enough to stretch it out to 3pt range. So I would not be shocked if he made 30%.
I think Collins can also be in that 30-34% range,
As for Toppin, in LIMITED attempts he did make 40% last year. And he made over 40% in Bahamas. Do I think he will make 40+% this year? No. But I do think he may be in the 35-39% range which is pretty good.

But how different is a guy that makes 30% to one that makes 40%. You are talking 1 more make per 10 attempts. And unless you are a "good" shooter you aren't taking 10 or even 5 3pt attempts per game, you may be taking just 3. So a 40% guy taking 3.3 vs a 30% guy taking 3.3 per game will make only 1 more every 3 games.

As for Collins and Toppin together. I don't think we will see that a lot. But I do think we could see it to start each game, as Collins may be the best option to win the jump-ball. And winning that is important, as it gives you on average 0.5 more possessions per game. Now if Toppin can win just as many jump-balls as Collins can, then maybe we don't see Collins start. But you may also see them out there together for DEFENSIVE reasons. And we know Cal loves defense. But if Toppin plays 28-30 mpg, and Collins plays 20-24 mpg, then 10-12 (half) of those Collins minutes will come when Toppin is on the bench. So they would only play 10-12 mpg together. And you figure some of those will come when either Oscar or Wheeler is on the bench, especially when Oscar is on the bench. So I really can't see us having those 4 on the floor together more than 5 mpg.