TCU has a superior roster bc of its star QB. And WVU has a better roster than in 2011 bc of depth.
- Thread starter wvpaper
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A pro QB with 2 years of eligibility remaining, affording the luxury to coast at that position until 2013. Had we recruited just 1 good HS QB in 2012 (with a QB guru doing the recruiting) and just one in 2014, we would have a third year starter with 4 years in the program being backed up by a promising RS freshman.
Instead, we have an overmatched junior transfer backed up by a mystery which is either a true freshman or a player in his third year in the program who has yet to convince the coach he can be trusted to play even when the starter is struggling mightily.
I'm sure it's Bill Stewart's, or Hell maybe Jim Carlen's fault.
Instead, we have an overmatched junior transfer backed up by a mystery which is either a true freshman or a player in his third year in the program who has yet to convince the coach he can be trusted to play even when the starter is struggling mightily.
I'm sure it's Bill Stewart's, or Hell maybe Jim Carlen's fault.
A pro QB with 2 years of eligibility remaining, affording the luxury to coast at that position until 2013. Had we recruited just 1 good HS QB in 2012 (with a QB guru doing the recruiting) and just one in 2014, we would have a third year starter with 4 years in the program being backed up by a promising RS freshman.
Instead, we have an overmatched junior transfer backed up by a mystery which is either a true freshman or a player in his third year in the program who has yet to convince the coach he can be trusted to play even when the starter is struggling mightily.
I'm sure it's Bill Stewart's, or Hell maybe Jim Carlen's fault.
Instead, we have an overmatched junior transfer backed up by a mystery which is either a true freshman or a player in his third year in the program who has yet to convince the coach he can be trusted to play even when the starter is struggling mightily.
I'm sure it's Bill Stewart's, or Hell maybe Jim Carlen's fault.
A) Explain how player attrition is a recruiting failure after the player leaves 1 1/2 years into his career
B) Explain how Clint Trickett, who was recruited in 2014, wasn't a good recruiting move
C) Explain how William Crest, in his 2nd year at WVU, is somehow considered a third-year player at WVU
you're in such a rush to bash Dana that you can't even form a decently accurate thought....
What is Bill Stewart's fault..............................
Not recruiting another QB in 2009 to go with Geno
Not addressing the QB attrition in 2010 prior to Dana arriving
Not recruiting a competent HS QB in 2011, instead opting to hand out a "favor" to Brian Athey and his family.
A) Explain how player attrition is a recruiting failure after the player leaves 1 1/2 years into his career
The failure is having a roster with a sub-par starter and, evidently no 2nd stringer sufficiently developed to play midway through the season. I was obviously just offering, one very minimal way in which we could have reached this point without the dire QB situation we have. Obviously, there are many others.
B) Explain how Clint Trickett, who was recruited in 2014, wasn't a good recruiting move.
It was a good move in that it was a needed reaction to an obvious crisis at the position. Were we better with Trickett than we would have been without him? When the alternatives were limited to Childress and Millard, the answer is obvious. It's equally obvious that it would heve better short and long term to have recruited at least one good QB reruit with 5 years to play 4 during the 2012-14 recruiting campaingns. People who are not incredibly stupid, would not debate that point.
C) Explain how William Crest, in his 2nd year at WVU, is somehow considered a third-year player at WVU
Explain how my mistakenly saying 3rd instead of second, strengthens you ludicrous claim QB recruiting, retention and development has not been a failure.
you're in such a rush to bash Dana that you can't even form a decently accurate thought....
What is Bill Stewart's fault..............................
Not recruiting another QB in 2009 to go with Geno
Not addressing the QB attrition in 2010 prior to Dana arriving
Not recruiting a competent HS QB in 2011, instead opting to hand out a "favor" to Brian Athey and his family.
Because any problems under Stewart obviously did not become an on the field issue during the 2011-12 seasons and the stupid decision to go HCIW in the midst of 2011 recruiting obviously hamstringed both Stewart and Holgorsen for that class. I don't think it's fair to hold that class, in toto, against either because all the blame goes to Luck.
Geno played every game both years. It is pure speculation to say that he or any other coach other than Holgorsen would have been unable to have a competent QB in place in 2015. It's not speculation to say that Holgorsen has proven unable.
The failure is having a roster with a sub-par starter and, evidently no 2nd stringer sufficiently developed to play midway through the season. I was obviously just offering, one very minimal way in which we could have reached this point without the dire QB situation we have. Obviously, there are many others.
B) Explain how Clint Trickett, who was recruited in 2014, wasn't a good recruiting move.
It was a good move in that it was a needed reaction to an obvious crisis at the position. Were we better with Trickett than we would have been without him? When the alternatives were limited to Childress and Millard, the answer is obvious. It's equally obvious that it would heve better short and long term to have recruited at least one good QB reruit with 5 years to play 4 during the 2012-14 recruiting campaingns. People who are not incredibly stupid, would not debate that point.
C) Explain how William Crest, in his 2nd year at WVU, is somehow considered a third-year player at WVU
Explain how my mistakenly saying 3rd instead of second, strengthens you ludicrous claim QB recruiting, retention and development has not been a failure.
you're in such a rush to bash Dana that you can't even form a decently accurate thought....
What is Bill Stewart's fault..............................
Not recruiting another QB in 2009 to go with Geno
Not addressing the QB attrition in 2010 prior to Dana arriving
Not recruiting a competent HS QB in 2011, instead opting to hand out a "favor" to Brian Athey and his family.
Because any problems under Stewart obviously did not become an on the field issue during the 2011-12 seasons and the stupid decision to go HCIW in the midst of 2011 recruiting obviously hamstringed both Stewart and Holgorsen for that class. I don't think it's fair to hold that class, in toto, against either because all the blame goes to Luck.
Geno played every game both years. It is pure speculation to say that he or any other coach other than Holgorsen would have been unable to have a competent QB in place in 2015. It's not speculation to say that Holgorsen has proven unable.
So you say that player attrition (Childress) is t a recruiting failure but then blast our recruiting for 'failing' to bring in a QB in 2012 that sould be here in 2015...... Im sure you can see the hypocrisy there
B) you say Trickett was a good pickup but then say the better move would have been to add a freshmen? When all we had was an 11th hour addition in Millard (because Stewart left us with no QB) and a freshman in 2013........ Im sure you can see the idiocy there
C) you are writing Crest off as a bust during his freshman season, while he plays QB in a SYSTEM that historically has required QBs to sit, learn, and listen for multiple seasons before they thrive
Im sure you can see how your ideas might need revision
Dana has recruited great QB prospects to WVU.....
Player retention at the position hurt WVU heavily when combined with the empty cupboard that was left to our current coach
QB development prior to this season has been awesome, statistically, with both Geno and Trickett making great strides between year one and two in Dana's system. That can not be debated.
Trickett's durability is the only hook the anti-Holgorsen crowd can really hang their hats on, as they try to spin that into "Clint was average and fell into our lap". No, Trickett was a top ten college QB last season until he got hurt
B) you say Trickett was a good pickup but then say the better move would have been to add a freshmen? When all we had was an 11th hour addition in Millard (because Stewart left us with no QB) and a freshman in 2013........ Im sure you can see the idiocy there
C) you are writing Crest off as a bust during his freshman season, while he plays QB in a SYSTEM that historically has required QBs to sit, learn, and listen for multiple seasons before they thrive
Im sure you can see how your ideas might need revision
Dana has recruited great QB prospects to WVU.....
Player retention at the position hurt WVU heavily when combined with the empty cupboard that was left to our current coach
QB development prior to this season has been awesome, statistically, with both Geno and Trickett making great strides between year one and two in Dana's system. That can not be debated.
Trickett's durability is the only hook the anti-Holgorsen crowd can really hang their hats on, as they try to spin that into "Clint was average and fell into our lap". No, Trickett was a top ten college QB last season until he got hurt
If you truly believe Clint was a top 10 QB, there is little reason to debate it. You are never going to get the point that no one intelligent thinks raw stats are the measure of performance. No disrespect to Clint because there is no shame at being average at this level. But, he was an average QB who happened to be the best we had and he played his *** off.
You, do inadvertently make a salient point. It's sort of in the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" class of points. If we have a system we know requires multiple seasons before a QB can thrive and we simultaneously know that it is practically impossible to have a QB with multiple seasons under his belt at all times then the design is flawed because it guarantees down years. If that is true, then rather than just saying well, that's the way it is in this system, intelligent people would likely eventually conclude, "well maybe we should look at other systems that don't have down years built in by design.
When you add to that OBVIOUS issue the reality that not even all QBs with multiple seasons in the system will be adequate merely because of the passage of time, it would seem we are setting ourselves up to struggle more often than not.
That seems like something reasonable people would perceive as a problem and being told it's part of of our coach's system seems to help identify the source of the problem rather than eliminate the problem.
You, do inadvertently make a salient point. It's sort of in the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" class of points. If we have a system we know requires multiple seasons before a QB can thrive and we simultaneously know that it is practically impossible to have a QB with multiple seasons under his belt at all times then the design is flawed because it guarantees down years. If that is true, then rather than just saying well, that's the way it is in this system, intelligent people would likely eventually conclude, "well maybe we should look at other systems that don't have down years built in by design.
When you add to that OBVIOUS issue the reality that not even all QBs with multiple seasons in the system will be adequate merely because of the passage of time, it would seem we are setting ourselves up to struggle more often than not.
That seems like something reasonable people would perceive as a problem and being told it's part of of our coach's system seems to help identify the source of the problem rather than eliminate the problem.
Depth is a luxury.
Excellent skill players are a necessity.
Especially at a place like WVU.
Our best seasons/moments/games ever featured big time, star QBs, RBs & WRs. Not necessarily a bevy of backup bodies. Alabama, LSU and Ohio State, those are the types of places that can boast about depth and back it up.
As to the depth of this 2015 team, I'm just not sure it's been built to the level we'd all hoped for.
Joseph and Chestnut's absences have been felt and not filled (yes yes I know Karl is not really replaceable, but you can't get gashed moving forward at least). Secondary got torched at Bay. Karl would have figured to made a difference vs Ok St, maybe even on that final 4th down TD run by JW Walsh. Could be similar results tomorrow in Ft Worth. Down 2-3 DBs, I think it is. Injuries are tough, but a part of the game every year. Never fails.
Smallwood nursing that ankle or what not, that shined a light on thin RB depth. Or so the coaches have said.
At WR, we've seen two backup QBs go in and get significant reps. Gibson and Durante give some good young talent, but bringing in backup QBs does not indicate receiver depth, in my opinion.
At QB, even though Howard needs to improve, get consistent and take care of the ball, if he goes down, that's another question of depth.
Excellent skill players are a necessity.
Especially at a place like WVU.
Our best seasons/moments/games ever featured big time, star QBs, RBs & WRs. Not necessarily a bevy of backup bodies. Alabama, LSU and Ohio State, those are the types of places that can boast about depth and back it up.
As to the depth of this 2015 team, I'm just not sure it's been built to the level we'd all hoped for.
Joseph and Chestnut's absences have been felt and not filled (yes yes I know Karl is not really replaceable, but you can't get gashed moving forward at least). Secondary got torched at Bay. Karl would have figured to made a difference vs Ok St, maybe even on that final 4th down TD run by JW Walsh. Could be similar results tomorrow in Ft Worth. Down 2-3 DBs, I think it is. Injuries are tough, but a part of the game every year. Never fails.
Smallwood nursing that ankle or what not, that shined a light on thin RB depth. Or so the coaches have said.
At WR, we've seen two backup QBs go in and get significant reps. Gibson and Durante give some good young talent, but bringing in backup QBs does not indicate receiver depth, in my opinion.
At QB, even though Howard needs to improve, get consistent and take care of the ball, if he goes down, that's another question of depth.
"If you truly believe Clint was a top 10 QB, there is little reason to debate it."
Prior to his season-ending injury, Clint was among the nation's 10 best passers............. and even after sitting out 2.5 games, finished at #23 nationally. His 67.1% completion rate was also 7th highest among those top 25............. averaged 312 yards passing a game............ but was "just average"
And you expect your opinions to be respected?
I didn't read anything after that........ no need. You're not addressing facts.
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might as well give up on these 2 jug heads. It's the equivalent to arguing with someone who still believes the earth is flat.
Excellent points.
Recruiting has been quite stable at WVU for 30 years. From the time Nehlen elevated us to the present, we are a middle of the pack recruiting team when compared to other "big time programs."
Our best seasons come when we have a convergence of favorable factors coincide. When we have a good QB, substantial experience, no glaring weaknesses and just a sprinkling a "star players" (as opposed to recruits with a lot of stars) we are usually a very strong strong team 1998 might be the only exception to that and it was still a decent team record-wise) . the more of those elements you remove the less we accomplish. But, the best predictor is QB by far.
It's probably not a coincidence that our winning percentage from 1980 forward , when Luck, Hoss, Major, Bulger, White and Smith started is approx. .700 and we're about .550 with others.
Our down years, also largely coincide with either poor QB play or at least ones poorly suited for the offense. In such years, we were well below our average. We had very serious QB issues in 85-6, 90-91, 94 (Johnston improved some so I only put him at poor that year), 2001 (Lewis was only poor in Rod's system), and 2013. we were about .445 in those years with only 3 winning records and all of them were just barely.
The only time we had a losing record with a really good QB was 1999 and Bulger was hurt much of the season.
When you see the difference between .700 with our best QBs and .450 with our weakest, across 35 years and 4 coaches that tells you something. We average 3.6 losses per 12 games with our best QBs and that includes everyone but Luck's first year, 5.4 overall, and 6.6 with the weakest QB play.
I would say it would not be unreasonable at all to say Howard puts us at -3 compared to what a great QB could do with this team. A great QB with substantial experience might add another game on top of that.,
A steady one would probably be +1-2 over Howard.
I think we need to see how the season finishes before we say whether that would make us just better, good or really good.
Recruiting has been quite stable at WVU for 30 years. From the time Nehlen elevated us to the present, we are a middle of the pack recruiting team when compared to other "big time programs."
Our best seasons come when we have a convergence of favorable factors coincide. When we have a good QB, substantial experience, no glaring weaknesses and just a sprinkling a "star players" (as opposed to recruits with a lot of stars) we are usually a very strong strong team 1998 might be the only exception to that and it was still a decent team record-wise) . the more of those elements you remove the less we accomplish. But, the best predictor is QB by far.
It's probably not a coincidence that our winning percentage from 1980 forward , when Luck, Hoss, Major, Bulger, White and Smith started is approx. .700 and we're about .550 with others.
Our down years, also largely coincide with either poor QB play or at least ones poorly suited for the offense. In such years, we were well below our average. We had very serious QB issues in 85-6, 90-91, 94 (Johnston improved some so I only put him at poor that year), 2001 (Lewis was only poor in Rod's system), and 2013. we were about .445 in those years with only 3 winning records and all of them were just barely.
The only time we had a losing record with a really good QB was 1999 and Bulger was hurt much of the season.
When you see the difference between .700 with our best QBs and .450 with our weakest, across 35 years and 4 coaches that tells you something. We average 3.6 losses per 12 games with our best QBs and that includes everyone but Luck's first year, 5.4 overall, and 6.6 with the weakest QB play.
I would say it would not be unreasonable at all to say Howard puts us at -3 compared to what a great QB could do with this team. A great QB with substantial experience might add another game on top of that.,
A steady one would probably be +1-2 over Howard.
I think we need to see how the season finishes before we say whether that would make us just better, good or really good.
Its so easy to tell the difference between WVU fans who have been fans since Rodriguez was coach and WVU fans who have been fans since Nehlen was coach.
Its not even worth the time trying to argue.
Its not even worth the time trying to argue.