Team Identity

[SteelCurtain74]

New to the board but have been a long time lurker. I've seen a lot of names thrown around for possible coaching replacements. My question though is if you were to describe to someone what the identity of an MSU football team is what would you say? I attended MSU when Sherrill was here and always thought of us as a physical team with big offensive/defensive lines, above average tight ends and bruising running backs. There is a part of me that would like to go back to that formula although that may not be the best route to go.

With that said, is there a coach who would fit your description of what the MSU football identity is or should be?

 

[Nunya.sixpack]

View attachment 14450

 

[tenureplan]

We need to go back to a run first spread and take advantage of angles and mismatches. 17 a bunch of old man football, Georgia is the only team in the conference that still does it, and they underperform. We never get/keep the wr's for a pass first spread.

 

[The Situation]

Been discussed ad nauseum but I’m not an ******* like Nunya so here goes:

- Run based, attacking offense with road grading linemen and dual threat quarterback
- Fundamentally sound coaching style
- Deep defensive line and line backing groups

This takes advantage of the type of talent MS produces and assures we play a physical brand of football.

To rise to the elite level, we have to get a dual threat quarterback that can throw at Dak’s level.

In other words, what Mullen did but improve the recruiting slightly. Or what Sherrill did but actually have a talented quarterback.

We were close under Mullen. If he had closed on a handful more top players, and hired a real OC so he didn’t make stupid in game decisions, we’d have gotten there. His recruiting logistics were exactly what we needed.

 

[karlchilders.sixpack]

Plus ONE!

 

[missouridawg]

Been discussed ad nauseum but I’m not an ******* like Nunya so here goes:

- Run based, attacking offense with road grading linemen and dual threat quarterback
- Fundamentally sound coaching style
- Deep defensive line and line backing groups

This takes advantage of the type of talent MS produces and assures we play a physical brand of football.

To rise to the elite level, we have to get a dual threat quarterback that can throw at Dak’s level.

In other words, what Mullen did but improve the recruiting slightly. Or what Sherrill did but actually have a talented quarterback.

We were close under Mullen. If he had closed on a handful more top players, and hired a real OC so he didn’t make stupid in game decisions, we’d have gotten there. His recruiting logistics were exactly what we needed.

What sucks so bad about Mullen leaving.... was that he finally broke down the fence with quarterback recruiting. KT and Madden both four stars and were his highest rated at the position.

I miss Dan

 

[TheStateUofMS]

^^^This

 

[thatsbaseball]

The part that pisses me off is that to my knowledge it's not etched in stone anywhere that we have to make bad hires like our latest loser BUT WE DO over and 17ing over. We once again have sub par athletic administration and the crap flows down hill from there. The blame lies at the top of the ladder and nobody can ultimately straighten this CF out but Keenum.

 

[Shmuley]

There is now a body of work on Moorhead. Should be enlightening to see what happens with this recruiting class. Expect the results to mirror the season.

 

[Seinfeld]

Something along those lines that I’d like to ask...

A comment I keep seeing from time to time is that if we didn’t want to endure a rebuild involving his vision of the RPO offense, we should have never hired him. It’s all he knows, and it’s what he’s going to run.

However, looking back on that, how did anyone get convinced that this was a good idea? Knowing the way that MSU recruits, the type of athlete that the state produces, and the inherent competition in the SEC, why would an AD have signed off on this?

 

[BingleCocktail]

Something along those lines that I’d like to ask...

A comment I keep seeing from time to time is that if we didn’t want to endure a rebuild involving his vision of the RPO offense, we should have never hired him. It’s all he knows, and it’s what he’s going to run.

However, looking back on that, how did anyone get convinced that this was a good idea? Knowing the way that MSU recruits, the type of athlete that the state produces, and the inherent competition in the SEC, why would an AD have signed off on this?

Two words: "Panic hire"

 

[bulldogbaja]

Defense. Defense.
Think about the most memorable MSU football plays of all time. From 6-3, to Pegues pick-six, they are all defensive plays. I'm trying to think of classic MSU victories that were decided by a last-second MSU score.... it's a pretty short list.

 

[bulldogbaja]

Anthony Johnson. My bad. I conflated that with Pegues' punt return.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Simple. Cohen is in over his head as badly as Croomhead.

 

[philduckworth]

Offense: i would love to see a power offense with a mobile QB and vertical routes. See Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens.

Defense: I prefer the 3-4 for all of the versatility it provides and it can sometimes mask the lack of elite 3 tech D-linemen.

Special teams: We need to be great on special teams. Not average. And certainly not below average.

But identity is more about your team culture, your actual football culture. A strong coach/leader provides that culture with help from his S&C coach and staff. You have to find the right guy in charge and he instills the proper culture which leads to your identity. An identity of toughness, accountability, development, unselfishness, pride, and effort in everything you do. These are things that go way beyond X's and O's.

 

[BingleCocktail]

Defense. Defense.
Think about the most memorable MSU football plays of all time. From 6-3, to Pegues pick-six, they are all defensive plays. I'm trying to think of classic MSU victories that were decided by a last-second MSU score.... it's a pretty short list.

Kenny Roberts vs. AUB (1991)
Don Smith vs. TN (1986)
Kendall Watkins vs. TN (1994)

I'll consider FGs as Special Teams

 

[SteelCurtain74]

Agree 100%. I would prefer a mobile quarterback who is as equally as dangerous with their arm as they are with their feet such as a Lamar Jackson or even an Aaron Rodgers. I would also like our next coach to put a premium on special teams. That seems to have been lacking lately.

 

[patdog]

I'm not buying this "new offense" ********. It's not like we're changing from a wide open passing offense to the power I. Arkansas is making major changes to their offense. Moorhead's offense should be a minor change from what we had been running.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

The part that pisses me off is that to my knowledge it's not etched in stone anywhere that we have to make bad hires like our latest loser BUT WE DO over and 17ing over. We once again have sub par athletic administration and the crap flows down hill from there. The blame lies at the top of the ladder and nobody can ultimately straighten this CF out but Keenum.

it's what happens when you try to experiment. after you found something that works. We had great success with Byrne and Stricklin as far as athletic administration. Keenum and company decided to take a shot on our baseball coach that was an MSU guy that sat in on a couple of hires. Cohen the great tinkerer that he is decides to tinker with the football team and brings in a theoretical brains guy from the northeast to try to experiment with bringing in a passing game to get us over the hump. Problem is that didn't work. Should have stuck with the hardnosed run spread option style of play that got us all of those bowl appearances and the number 1 ranking in the country and 2 of the best qb's we have ever had.

Stop with the tinkering and get us back to things that we know work for MSU. bring us an AD who knows the business and how to market our brand and who we are. Get folks excited about football season again. Bring someone in to be football coach that understands our program that is hard nosed and doesn't just talk about hardnose and discipline but actually get's after it. Bring someone in who understands that Mississippi State defense means shutting it down and being agressive. Bring someone in that understand Bulldog offense is dual threat qb that used the power spread option and that has outstanding running backs and qb play every year. Bring someone in that understands that our lineman need to be meaner than a junk yard dog and push their man of the line. teach them to be road graders. Bring someone in that understands how to run the ball by creating running lanes by spreading the field horizontally and establishing drives to wear a defense down. not this explosive play 50/50 ******** that is more likely for an interception or 10/90 for our receivers and qb. Stop with this slow developing ****. run quick hit plays. keep the defense guessing with misdirection.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

The part that pisses me off is that to my knowledge it's not etched in stone anywhere that we have to make bad hires like our latest loser BUT WE DO over and 17ing over. We once again have sub par athletic administration and the crap flows down hill from there. The blame lies at the top of the ladder and nobody can ultimately straighten this CF out but Keenum.

Do you seriously believe that it is just simple to find a great coach? It is always an unknown until the guy shows up and either does, or does not, perform. These kinds of posts drive me nuts. Do you seriously think our admin looked for a bad coach? They looked at all candidates and hired the guy they thought they needed. It not working out doesn't mean that we "have to make bad hires".

You don't have to look far to find many college programs that made "bad hires". Jimbo Fisher was considered a good hire when he was taken from FSU, but so far, not so good. FSU is a dumpster fire not far removed from a natty. Alabama pre-Saban was a mess forever.

Don't even get me started on the number of large companies that hire crappy CEOs. You think they were looking for a crappy CEO? NO. Finding good leadership is a challenge because there just aren't that many out there.

My only solace is my continuing assumption that some posters on here are incredibly young and just don't know too much about life yet...

 

[OliveBranchDAWG]

Mullen’s biggest faults were 1) inability to keep a solid DC 2) lazy recruiting at times (this is just his personality, he didn’t love recruiting) 3) He was only fully invested in the program 3-4 years he was here. Half the time he was looking at other opportunities.

This isn’t a bash Mullen post. Just truth. I’d give anything to have him back. I’d love to see what MSU is capable of with a fully invested Dan Mullen & Grantham for a 3 year stretch.

 

[bulldogbaja]

I'm sorry TD but this is stupid. Everybody in the world thought that Moorhead was a great hire. The reality is that it's always a crap shoot.
Chad Morris should have been a homerun- turns out he sucks.
Even Alabama went through a series of bad hires pre-Saban.
Meanwhile Ed Orgeron defies reality as one of the best hires of this decade.

 

[Seinfeld]

Yeah, it’s definitely not a sweeping change from an overall design standpoint. However, I would argue that there are three distinct differences from our offenses in years past

1. Time taken to get a play called - We are currently 95th in the country in plays per game, and we’re averaging 10 less plays/game during Moorehead’s tenure than the average from the prior 5 years. In addition to this equating to less chances to score, it gives the opposing defense much needed time for rest and subs. Frankly, it’s just a stupid strategy

2. Too much thinking required on the O line - Our guys are built to line up and run over people, not to wonder which of 3 options the QB is gonna choose and then have to worry about second level blocks

3. Length of passing routes - Joe is obsessed with explosive plays, and it continues to hurt us. We refuse to take 4-6 easy yards at times because our current offense doesn’t find value in that. We want to throw for chunks of yards which tends to result in sacks, throws into double coverage, or at the very least... rushed passes

I agree that Joe’s offense isn’t anything super unique, but the spin he’s trying to put on it with the personnel involved is a disaster of a formula

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

I'm sorry TD but this is stupid. Everybody in the world thought that Moorhead was a great hire. The reality is that it's always a crap shoot.
Chad Morris should have been a homerun- turns out he sucks.
Even Alabama went through a series of bad hires pre-Saban.
Meanwhile Ed Orgeron defies reality as one of the best hires of this decade.

not really it's about finding the right fit for your school and taking your time and doing the homework. On the outside for people that didn't understand MSU it did look like a great hire. For those of us who were concerned about how Moorhead would fit his system in it was a skeptical hire. I was alarmed the minute i heard them talking about slinging it down the field more with Fitz and Key as our qb's. I knew then it was going away from what we had under Mullen. some liked the idea of that experiment and what it would do.

Morris should have been a good hire, but he was trying trying to convert out of a Bert System. They really did have to have a culture change. They also might not be the right fit for each other.

Ed O has learned from his coaching mistakes years ago at ole miss. It was probably also a very bad fit for him. He worked well at USC but they didn't hire him and end up with Sark and now Helton bother bad fits for USC. He fits in very well at LSU and has apparently learned how to be CEO. He's good recruiter and now let's his offense roll through the offensive coaches similar to what Dan has learned to do.

It's not really about finding a smart x' and o's guy. it's finding a guy smart enough to adapt his style to the talent that is surrounding him and going with it. drawing up plays that match them. It's about finding the guy that's going to come in and be hard nosed coach with some swagger and attitude. I just don't think Jo has any of that. He's too much of a northeast nerd people-pleaser that wants to be the players buddy. He wants to draw up these long developing plays to outsmart the defense. That just doesn't work down here unless you have 4 or 5 stars everywhere on the offense. you have to be able to adapt and develop down there with the 2-4 stars we grab.

 

[philduckworth]

I'm not buying this "new offense" ********. It's not like we're changing from a wide open passing offense to the power I. Arkansas is making major changes to their offense. Moorhead's offense should be a minor change from what we had been running.

The Moorhead offense is hard to learn, easy to defend.

 

[philduckworth]

Yeah, I mean the only tweaks I would have loved to see with Mullen's offense were a few more downfield shots and a few less QB runs. Otherwise, it was a great system for MSU.

 

[The Situation]

Something along those lines that I’d like to ask...

A comment I keep seeing from time to time is that if we didn’t want to endure a rebuild involving his vision of the RPO offense, we should have never hired him. It’s all he knows, and it’s what he’s going to run.

However, looking back on that, how did anyone get convinced that this was a good idea? Knowing the way that MSU recruits, the type of athlete that the state produces, and the inherent competition in the SEC, why would an AD have signed off on this?

I think Cohen simply over-thought it. He wanted to take that next step that Mullen never could.

In hindsight we should have just continued what we had going. Of course I'm a HUD fan always, and I would have always taken Rich Rod, but if that didn't happen I wanted Geoff Collins or Manny Diaz.

 

[The Situation]

Two words: "Panic hire"

It wasn't a panic hire. It was calculated.

 

[The Situation]

Defense. Defense.
Think about the most memorable MSU football plays of all time. From 6-3, to Pegues pick-six, they are all defensive plays. I'm trying to think of classic MSU victories that were decided by a last-second MSU score.... it's a pretty short list.

I too have always thought we might should really go with our strength there and go after a defensive hire. Let him have a plan for offense and hire those type coaches. I hope we go that route next time.

 

[The Situation]

Special teams: We need to be great on special teams at kicker. Not average. And certainly not below average.

Fixed that for you.

We need to try to eliminate special teams as much as possible, since it gets into your depth. Kick the ball out of the endzone on kickoffs. Angle the punts.

 

[The Situation]

not really it's about finding the right fit for your school and taking your time and doing the homework. On the outside for people that didn't understand MSU it did look like a great hire. For those of us who were concerned about how Moorhead would fit his system in it was a skeptical hire. I was alarmed the minute i heard them talking about slinging it down the field more with Fitz and Key as our qb's. I knew then it was going away from what we had under Mullen. some liked the idea of that experiment and what it would do.

Morris should have been a good hire, but he was trying trying to convert out of a Bert System. They really did have to have a culture change. They also might not be the right fit for each other.

Ed O has learned from his coaching mistakes years ago at ole miss. It was probably also a very bad fit for him. He worked well at USC but they didn't hire him and end up with Sark and now Helton bother bad fits for USC. He fits in very well at LSU and has apparently learned how to be CEO. He's good recruiter and now let's his offense roll through the offensive coaches similar to what Dan has learned to do.

It's not really about finding a smart x' and o's guy. it's finding a guy smart enough to adapt his style to the talent that is surrounding him and going with it. drawing up plays that match them. It's about finding the guy that's going to come in and be hard nosed coach with some swagger and attitude. I just don't think Jo has any of that. He's too much of a northeast nerd people-pleaser that wants to be the players buddy. He wants to draw up these long developing plays to outsmart the defense. That just doesn't work down here unless you have 4 or 5 stars everywhere on the offense. you have to be able to adapt and develop down there with the 2-4 stars we grab.

Agree. Cohen listened to too many 'experts' like Bill Connelly.

 

[Seinfeld]

I think that’s an accurate answer. An analogy might be that Cohen went all in three hands in to a game of hold ‘em

 

[Lowdog]

“Ed O has learned from his coaching mistakes years ago at ole miss. It was probably also a very bad fit for him. He worked well at USC but they didn't hire him and end up with Sark and now Helton bother bad fits for USC. He fits in very well at LSU and has apparently learned how to be CEO. He's good recruiter and now let's his offense roll through the offensive coaches similar to what Dan has learned to do.”

The thing about Ed O and LSU is that it’s a perfect fit. Ed O speaks their language, has a craziness about him, he absolutely loves Louisiana and he’s shrimp boat captain. He can walk into any recruits living room in Louisiana and just start talking with that dialect and that recruits parents are sold. He’s the perfect fit! Can he coach? Maybe! But with his recruiting and the fact that any kid in Louisiana dreams of playing for “ONLY” LSU. Then it’s not that hard. Especially when Ed O surrounds himself with competent assistant coaches.

We need to find a coach that understands our culture and understands our state’s recruiting strong/weak points. Understands what it takes to compete in the SEC. Understands our history of football. Understands our thirst for a winning football program. I’ve said it a thousand times before, if MSU would ever put a truly winning team in football on the field you wouldn’t be able to print enough tickets. Mullen almost had us there and how many sell outs did we have? To some extent look at women’s basketball. Look at baseball several years ago.

 

[The Situation]

Do you seriously believe that it is just simple to find a great coach? It is always an unknown until the guy shows up and either does, or does not, perform. These kinds of posts drive me nuts. Do you seriously think our admin looked for a bad coach? They looked at all candidates and hired the guy they thought they needed. It not working out doesn't mean that we "have to make bad hires".

You don't have to look far to find many college programs that made "bad hires". Jimbo Fisher was considered a good hire when he was taken from FSU, but so far, not so good. FSU is a dumpster fire not far removed from a natty. Alabama pre-Saban was a mess forever.

Don't even get me started on the number of large companies that hire crappy CEOs. You think they were looking for a crappy CEO? NO. Finding good leadership is a challenge because there just aren't that many out there.

My only solace is my continuing assumption that some posters on here are incredibly young and just don't know too much about life yet...

I think you can spare yourself a lot of trouble if you have a clear plan for the program. Mullen pretty much gave us that. It simply needed a little bit of tweaking and improvement in a few areas.

Moorhead was a wholesale change. He is a system coach. I never liked the idea "taking a bunch of shots downfield" but I was willing to give it a try. But once again, it's an offense that simply does not work at MSU.

 

[The Situation]

“Ed O has learned from his coaching mistakes years ago at ole miss. It was probably also a very bad fit for him. He worked well at USC but they didn't hire him and end up with Sark and now Helton bother bad fits for USC. He fits in very well at LSU and has apparently learned how to be CEO. He's good recruiter and now let's his offense roll through the offensive coaches similar to what Dan has learned to do.”

The thing about Ed O and LSU is that it’s a perfect fit. Ed O speaks their language, has a craziness about him, he absolutely loves Louisiana and he’s shrimp boat captain. He can walk into any recruits living room in Louisiana and just start talking with that dialect and that recruits parents are sold. He’s the perfect fit! Can he coach? Maybe! But with his recruiting and the fact that any kid in Louisiana dreams of playing for “ONLY” LSU. Then it’s not that hard. Especially when Ed O surrounds himself with competent assistant coaches.

We need to find a coach that understands our culture and understands our state’s recruiting strong/weak points. Understands what it takes to compete in the SEC. Understands our history of football. Understands our thirst for a winning football program. I’ve said it a thousand times before, if MSU would ever put a truly winning team in football on the field you wouldn’t be able to print enough tickets. Mullen almost had us there and how many sell outs did we have? To some extent look at women’s basketball. Look at baseball several years ago.

Mark Hudspeth.

If you're willing to give Orgeron a mulligan, HUD should get one too.

 

[johnson86-1]

Do you seriously believe that it is just simple to find a great coach? It is always an unknown until the guy shows up and either does, or does not, perform. These kinds of posts drive me nuts. Do you seriously think our admin looked for a bad coach? They looked at all candidates and hired the guy they thought they needed. It not working out doesn't mean that we "have to make bad hires".

You don't have to look far to find many college programs that made "bad hires". Jimbo Fisher was considered a good hire when he was taken from FSU, but so far, not so good. FSU is a dumpster fire not far removed from a natty. Alabama pre-Saban was a mess forever.

Don't even get me started on the number of large companies that hire crappy CEOs. You think they were looking for a crappy CEO? NO. Finding good leadership is a challenge because there just aren't that many out there.

My only solace is my continuing assumption that some posters on here are incredibly young and just don't know too much about life yet...

No, it's easy. It's so easy, that even though people that know how easy it is could make seven figures each year just advising ADs on who they should hire, they don't do it because it wouldn't be challenging enough. So instead we have these AD's making between $300k and $1.5M a year constantly 17ing up hires instead of just doing the simple thing and hiring a great coach. It's baffling really.

 

[thatsbaseball]

That one flew right over your head didn't it chief. Of course it is VERY hard to hire a great coach with a good AD but next to impossible with incompetent administrator. If you look at Cohen's resume tell me what you see that would encourage you to think he could pick the right candidate for an SEC HC. I don't know or care what you know about life but your reading comprehension sucks.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Ahhhh, so I should've seen that you deciding that Cohen sucks too is what is driving your opinion about who we are forced to hire. Should I assume that all other ADs that hire flops as head coaches suck too. Even if that is true, then my argument holds true that finding good leadership is tough and guess what? You can't snap your fingers and just KNOW that you are hiring a good AD, although I don't personally think that Cohen sucks, so that is a difference in opinion, but neither makes my assertion true, nor does it make yours true.

And I'd put my English section of the ACT up against yours any day if we need to meet on South Farm with our records in hand!

Also, just for clarity, I'm not a chief (to my knowledge) but I do have some native american background and I'm currently deciding if I'm doubly insulted by your reference. Please let me know your % of native american DNA and I'll decide your penance accordingly.

 

[Dawgzilla]

it's what happens when you try to experiment. after you found something that works. We had great success with Byrne and Stricklin as far as athletic administration. Keenum and company decided to take a shot on our baseball coach that was an MSU guy that sat in on a couple of hires. Cohen the great tinkerer that he is decides to tinker with the football team and brings in a theoretical brains guy from the northeast to try to experiment with bringing in a passing game to get us over the hump. Problem is that didn't work. Should have stuck with the hardnosed run spread option style of play that got us all of those bowl appearances and the number 1 ranking in the country and 2 of the best qb's we have ever had.

I'm not trying to say that Cohen is a good AD, or that he is a bad AD, but people seem to forget why he was hired. Greg Byrne, Scott Stricklin, and Cohen were kind of a trio, so moving Cohen over to AD was an attempt at continuing the success the other two had.

Stricklin and Cohen knew each other as students, and then the three of them were at Kentucky at the same time. Byrne brought Stricklin to State when he could, and then he brought Cohen when he needed a new baseball coach. I have no idea how much time Cohen spent trying to learn AD stuff from Byrne and Stricklin, but when he was given the AD job they started telling us that administration had always been his goal and that he was in their ears all of the time. Whether that was true or not, I think they were really hopeful that the other two had rubbed off on him a bit.

 

[Dawgzilla]

And the first two differences you listed are not even supposed to be part of Moorhead's offense.

I really don't understand the disconnect between how Moorhead describes his offensive scheme, and the product we actually see on the field. If you go back to all the articles about JoMo's Penn State offense, and the things Moorhead said when he got here, we are not getting the product that was advertised on the side of the box.

Moorhead claimed his offense moved quickly, would attack the defenses, force the defense to try to defend one thing and then throw something else at them...but all of that seems to be the exact opposite of what he does.

Your #3 is a clear difference from the past, and is simply part of JoMo's philosophy. I was always concerned with the idea of taking shots downfield all the time, and it doesn't seem to be opening up things for our running game, but I wouldn't mind it at all if we were connecting on those throws a little more regularly.