No – I’m saying that in college, there would be plenty of great athletes at this weight.
The argument against a new weight class between 197 and HWT
- Thread starter EvilMonkeyInTheCloset
- Start date
When it comes to weight classes, comparing weight lifting to wrestling is about as ridiculous as you can get when it comes to participation. It makes perfects sense to have a bunch of weight classes in the heaviest ranges because big guys like to lift weights and are designed to lift weights. Meanwhile, a HUGE portion of high school wrestlers fall between the 130-170 weight range and a VAST majority of them would NEVER see a lean body type getting over 200 lbs, let alone needing a weight class somewhere close to the middle of 197-285...
Again, where would they come from? If they aren't there in high school,(like the actual numbers show) you think they magically appear in college, start wrestling and become great overnight?
Why? Really? You ever see the body fat on a linebacker? 6 foot three 250 pounds. Wrestling is essentially a smaller man's sport.
So you believe that there aren't many lean, muscular athletic males that weigh 195 pounds to say 260? You couldn't have a weight class day at 2:35 and then 285 for the really big guys?
The potential for adding more quality athletes is there. Realistically how many high level athletes Are walking around at 125 - 148 lbs? What sport can these people compete in a high level? There's basically one , wrestling. Why not add a tweeter class? It won't make meat much longer it'll give more high-quality athletes an opportunity to compete.
As for comparing to any kind of weightlifting you will see that the top 10 is more competitive once you get more middleweight to have your classes to very lightweight classes. It powerlifting USA they used to rank the top 100 lifters in each individual lift and in a total. It was a lot easier to get in the top 100 in 148 and under that it was from 165 and up.
If you build it it will come. If you add an additional weight class you might allow for more participation and there are plenty of great athletes.
Do you seriously think that high-level wrestlers are more athletic than say Micha Parsons? Some high level defensive end?
Many of you simply are NOT reading. There ALREADY IS a 220 weight in high school. This weight class is NOT full of talented wrestlers. It simply is not. I am not stating an opinion. The numbers are easy to find. Are you guys saying that kids aren't wrestling it in high school because there isn't a 220 in college? Because that may be the dumbest argument I have ever heard....The only thing dumber is saying that these guys would all of a sudden appear and wrestle in college when they didn't wrestle in high school...
Look, if these weight classes (195, 220 and 285) were swimming with numbers and talent, I would understand the argument. The simple truth is they are NOT even close. Again, google is your friend. Spend a few minutes looking at the high school participation numbers and then take some time to actually look at the results of major high school tournaments in these weight ranges. Again, nothing I am stating is opinion, the numbers are what they are...
See my reply above: It is already built. THERE ALREADY IS A 220 class in high school....If you build it it will come. If you add an additional weight class you might allow for more participation and there are plenty of great athletes.
Do you seriously think that high-level wrestlers are more athletic than say Micha Parsons? Some high level defensive end?
I asked Rock AI how many athletes in a Penn State football roster walk around at 200 pounds or more. Here's the answer:
The official Penn State Nittany Lions football roster for the 2025 season is available on the team's athletics website at https://gopsusports.com/sports/football/roster.
College football rosters typically include around 120–140 players (scholarship and walk-ons combined). Positions like quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, linebackers, defensive linemen, and offensive linemen often have many players weighing **200 pounds or more**, while kickers, punters, and some defensive backs are usually lighter.
A significant majority of the roster—likely well over 80 players—meet this threshold, as lighter players are mostly concentrated in specialist and certain skill positions. For an exact count, visit the official roster page linked above and review the listed weights, as they are updated periodically (e.g., recent changes noted in August 2025 preseason updates). Sites like ESPN, 247Sports, or Ourlads also mirror this data with player-by-player details.
So if we talk about the division one football players you have approximately 10,000 or more players that are playing at 200 pounds or greater. Let's add in the vision two and three also.
So we might have 30,000 or more high-level athletes walking around it over 200 pounds. All wrestling has to do is grab about 150 or so of those guys.
And that's enough to fill the tweeter class .
The official Penn State Nittany Lions football roster for the 2025 season is available on the team's athletics website at https://gopsusports.com/sports/football/roster.
College football rosters typically include around 120–140 players (scholarship and walk-ons combined). Positions like quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, linebackers, defensive linemen, and offensive linemen often have many players weighing **200 pounds or more**, while kickers, punters, and some defensive backs are usually lighter.
A significant majority of the roster—likely well over 80 players—meet this threshold, as lighter players are mostly concentrated in specialist and certain skill positions. For an exact count, visit the official roster page linked above and review the listed weights, as they are updated periodically (e.g., recent changes noted in August 2025 preseason updates). Sites like ESPN, 247Sports, or Ourlads also mirror this data with player-by-player details.
So if we talk about the division one football players you have approximately 10,000 or more players that are playing at 200 pounds or greater. Let's add in the vision two and three also.
So we might have 30,000 or more high-level athletes walking around it over 200 pounds. All wrestling has to do is grab about 150 or so of those guys.
And that's enough to fill the tweeter class .
If you build it it will come. If you add an additional weight class you might allow for more participation and there are plenty of great athletes.
Do you seriously think that high-level wrestlers are more athletic than say Micha Parsons? Some high level defensive end?
This is like asking, "Is an Olympic gold medalist judoka more athletic than Micah Parsons?".
Everything is relative. Hifumi Abe is a better athlete at his sport than Micah Parsons is at his. Takanori Nagase, better athlete at his sport than Micah Parsons is at his.
LMFAO, how does the PSU football roster translate to wrestlers at the DI level? You think some of them would stop playing football, with no wrestling experience and all of a sudden wrestle if there was a weight class in the 220-240 range?
Again, the HIGH SCHOOL PARTICIPATION NUMBERS TELL YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. Hell, I am not even arguing against adding new weight classes. I would love it if a couple more were added. I just know it isn't going to happen and if actual in-depth analysis was done by some sort of impartial, unbiaised panel, to determine if one was needed and where the class should be, any impartial panel would look at the high school participation numbers and 197-285 would be the LAST place they would consider adding a weight class...
There absolutely should be an additional weight class in the range. Just because you perceive that weight class as less talented doesn't mean there shouldn't be. Only little people with little minds think this way. Holding the sport back from advancing a tad bit more imo.
yes, there's some. they wrestle either 197 or 285. it's crazy.
you know that almost no HWT's approach 285, right?
130, 138, 146, 152, 160, 168, 174, 184, 197, 220, 285
Might need a few tweaks in the lower weights, but I think something on this direction would be beneficial.
Might need a few tweaks in the lower weights, but I think something on this direction would be beneficial.
No argument here - thought it for years.How would a 210-225 lb weight class "kill" the sport?
Does a guy like Dreshaun Ross really need to add excess bulk in order to compete with the size of college heavyweights?
Let's completely ignore the fact that in modern times, the gap between 197 and 285 is greater than 197 and every other weight class below it.
And, I'll gladly push back on the main argument that it'd be a supply and demand (participation) issue like with soccer and how all our "best athletes" go play football or basketball.......................
The other main argument will probably be Title IX and the one extra scholarship issue. If Title IX is really gonna be this staunch roadblock to adding one weight class/scholarship that is legitimately needed (deal with it if any "wrestling geniuses" believe it isn't......) for this sport, then Title IX itself needs to be amended. It shouldn't exist to prevent the growth of sports, or only allow growth if it allows more growth for women's sports first.
Sorry not sorry.
Oh wait, sorry. I forgot about the threads title.......as I was saying, but yes, please, argue against adding a weight class between 197 and HWT, actual wrestling fans.
115, 123, 130, 137, 145, 152, 160, 167, 177, 205, 285
2002,04 Tom Rowlands Ohio State
2009 Mark Ellis Missouri
2012-13 Tiny Nelson Minnesota
2016-18 Kyle Snyder Ohio State
2019 Anthony Caesar Penn State
2024 Greg Kerkvliet Penn State
2026 will be a small heavyweight as well.
if a 220-225 weight class were available all those above would have wrestled it.
Pretty sure on Ellis of Missouri…
So move 174 up 3 lbs and eliminate 184 and bump 197 8lbs. So where would guys like Angelo McEnelly Sinclair Rocco Ryder go?
Ellis was 265 . Kerk was 250 . And Nelson was 245
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HWT should be unlimited after a 220 class is implemented. Ive always been amazed that the heaviest weight class discriminates in being eligible to compete. Only in wrestling. Imagine the NCAA telling Audi Crooks she has to weigh in 200 or less to be eligible.
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A perfect example of a feelings over facts argument. “Little” people aren’t somehow holding “big” people from wrestling. The simple truth is you could add 4 weight classes between 197 and 285 and the number of wrestlers won’t increase and the wrestling itself will absolutely DECREASE.
I keep telling everyone it is easy to look at high school participation and they already have a 220 weight class. Everyone keeps ignoring that fact. Again, I am not even against adding weight classes. I would love to see more weight classes at the college level. This discussion is simply about "need" vs. "want". There simply is NO need to add a weight class in that range. The participation numbers speak for themselves and all you have to do is watch the top tournaments at the high school level in that range to see how low the participation level is and the wrestling ability.
Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't a few elite wrestler that get screwed being stuck between that weight range. However, there are a substantial amount of wrestlers in that 130-170 range that would be top contenders if there were more weight classes in that range and, instead, they may never make the starting lineup.
On top of all that, what do you think happens at the DII, DIII and NAIA levels. What type of product OVERALL do you think they put on the mat at the upper weight range vs the lower weights?
MSU- your premise is flawed because you think the 220 participation is an unchangeable fact.
1. Kids don't stop growing or adding weight when they turn 18.
2. Why would kids go out for a sport knowing because of their size is eventually going to put them in an in between "no mans land" Why does a kid weighing 146 pounds have so many options but a kid at 211 has to figure it out and drastically change one way or the other?
I weighed 197 and skinny as a rail my SR year back when it was 189 then HWT. I couldn't keep weight on and I couldn't cut that much. So I focused on baseball. Now adding the 220 class would have been ideal if it had been around but Id still be SOL earning a scholly and competing in college in that sport. So what good is a 220 class if its not offered beyond HS graduation. Why wouldn't I just focus on an easier practice in a sport that I could actually play in college?
This is chasing kids away and you don't even know it. So you can argue your perceived facts when you don't even know what it could look like. As it is now in its current form... it discriminates.
So why not try it a different way for say 10 years and if proves you were right it can be changed back. But I'm willing to bet some of you would be surprised. Like a poster above said, Build it and they will come.
1. Kids don't stop growing or adding weight when they turn 18.
2. Why would kids go out for a sport knowing because of their size is eventually going to put them in an in between "no mans land" Why does a kid weighing 146 pounds have so many options but a kid at 211 has to figure it out and drastically change one way or the other?
I weighed 197 and skinny as a rail my SR year back when it was 189 then HWT. I couldn't keep weight on and I couldn't cut that much. So I focused on baseball. Now adding the 220 class would have been ideal if it had been around but Id still be SOL earning a scholly and competing in college in that sport. So what good is a 220 class if its not offered beyond HS graduation. Why wouldn't I just focus on an easier practice in a sport that I could actually play in college?
This is chasing kids away and you don't even know it. So you can argue your perceived facts when you don't even know what it could look like. As it is now in its current form... it discriminates.
So why not try it a different way for say 10 years and if proves you were right it can be changed back. But I'm willing to bet some of you would be surprised. Like a poster above said, Build it and they will come.
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Left out Zabriskie. Although had Danimal been fully healthy....
Monkey is a troll. His thread was always intended as a troll. It's what he does, but normally only shows on this side of the forum in March.
So your premise is big kids don’t wrestle in high school because there isn’t a college weight for them? Do you realize that 99 percent of kids that start wrestling in high school have NO CLUE about college wrestling, let alone what weight classes there are? Hell, those that do know about college started wrestling way before they even had a real clue what they will weigh after they turn 18.
Again, you already have a 220 class in high school. Kids in the 14-17 year old range are NOT avoiding wrestling because they don’t have a weight choice that works for them and they sure as hell aren’t deciding not to because of college weight classes.
True, however is the class is added you might see more in both the classes than currently wrestle in the 285. You have an 88 lb gap there. Go to 230 then 285.
| 14 | 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285 These are the high school weight classes if they go to 14 weights. Start at 125, run up the same weight classes, go to a mid class after 197, 225-235, then go higher. More guys get a starting opportunity and with an extra class maybe you draw more people to the sport as college competitors. The old grow the sport thing. It's not like we don't have tens of thousands of potential competitors at a higher weight that might potentially stay with the sport. Or not. But again, they adjusted weight classes up since the early 80s. It's not impossible to do it again. |
Kerk was definitely not a small heavyweight.
false.
it's only an 88lb gap for like 3 people a decade.
almost no one good approaches 285lbs.
for the umpteenth time, 285 is the limit, not what they actually weigh.
it's not like 141 where everyone weighs in at 139.8
at 285, there's almost no one in all of wrestling that weighs above 260-265 and almost all the AA's are in the the 235-250 range.
you need to do nothing more than look at the ridiculous success rate of 197lbers moving up to 285 and doing just fine.
literally 7 of InterMat's Top 13 ranked RIGHT NOW started as 197's.
you're trying to find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
So you have two wrestlers in the last 25 years - hardly an argument to be used against having a weight class between 197 and 285.
Thinking a bit outside the box - if there was a weight class in between 197 and 285 do you think it might actually encourage some of the guys who give up wrestling to be mediocre football players to stay with the sport? You never know.
Other than Snyder and Cassar, these guys are closer to 260 than they are 225.
Maybe, but I definitely think the numbers would be very small. Again, I am not arguing against wanting another weight class. In a perfect world, there most certainly would be more than 10. I am simply pointing out that it just isn’t needed and it truly would only help a very percentage of wrestlers.
I would also still expect many to choose football over wrestling even with the weight class is added, simply because it is easier and wrestling in college, especially DI is ridiculously hard…
You mean the 197 guys who move up and no longer have to starve themselves and can wrestle feeling healthy? That is what the large gap in weights force that particular group of athletes to do. And let's wait until the All-Americans are dolled out. A skilled 220 will beat most of the average heavyweights. Wait until the cream is separated before you say they are doing just fine against the top of the list.
Anybody remember Lou Banach vs Bruce Baumgartner. Smaller heavyweight is ok.
Nah, I stop in from time to time from November to February to make sure we're not going the way of Iowa baseball in the 2000s, before Heller got there..................
Unfortunately, it's starting to look that way if we're getting embarrassed by Iowa State and Ohio State.
Oh wait, you didn't want me to troll. I'm sorry. Force of habit.
This actually isn't a troll thread. It was just veiled that way to trigger the people who don't think something between 197 and 285 needs to exist.
And it's worked.
He may have started that way...............but that PSU "strength and conditioning program" tho.
yes, please just go with international weights. and switch to freestyle rules while we're at it.
Oh I didn't wrestle at all. I was a basketball player all the way, and now a coach. So I have very little personal stake in this argument.
I did weigh about 180ish my senior year for football. In college, I bounced around between 190-210 when I wasn't eating healthy or working out/playing 5 hours of basketball most every day...........and now I wonder why my knees are bad.
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