The baseball situation and John Cohen....

[DowntownDawg]

...I've mostly kept silent on this, even though I've followed the team closely this year. A few things changed for me yesterday, though.

First of all, let me say that I am probably a Cohen apologist. I got to hang around him some last summer and hear him speak. As far as talk goes, he's got it. I will say that I felt at the time that we had simultaneously hired the anti-Polk, in terms of somebody being soft on his players and making excuses for them and being distracted by the NCAA and unfairness in the rules and things out of our control. He's also the anti-Polk in that he understands what it takes to recruit to MSU in this environment, and that we are not what we once were. All of those things are huge positives. I also got the sense from him that he wants nothing else but to lead MSU to new heights and that we are his destination job. If he has to can assistants, he will. If he has to cut guys, he will. He is not using MSU to get a raise and a better job. He loves Mississippi State and he is a ruthless competitor. I thought (and still do) that those two things make for a unique and great combination for a coach at State.

And as to this season, I think to this point, it's been fairly pointless to argue over playing Frost or Butler when you are giving up 30 + runs on the weekend to top 10 teams. If we play Butler, we might lose 10-6 instead of 10-4. Big Deal. If Whitney starts over Reed, does the outcome change on any given night? Routt and Watson gone for the year as well as Rawdow and Parks. We just don't have a great deck to play with. That said, we were good enough to beat Bama and really help ourselves get a spot in Hoover, which would've been a big and logical step for our program. We lost that series because of coaching decisions. Leaving Stratton in there was unexcusable, even though I understand his thinking. Taking Girodo out was a horrible move. And finally taking out Bracewell for Devin Jones was horrible as well. Then, in the next game, he left Bole in too long, and replaced him with Gravemen who walked the bases loaded and then Trey Johnson of all people, who has been a garbage guy most of the year. After Johnson loses the game for us, THEN we see Houston who promptly strikes his guy out and was obviously the better choice. For the first time, his coaching really negatively impacted us in a huge series.

The big picture remains the same. We've simply got to get players in here that can get a hit when you are tied in extra innings with two outs and the runner on third. We've got to get a good enough option to put in for Stratton when he is struggling so that we don't have to think twice about that. I still believe Cohen will get us those guys and that some of them are on the roster - they are just totally too young. If Girodo had pitched like he pitched Sunday all year, then it's a no brainer. Cohen knew that Girodo was as capable of giving up a homerun as Stratton - probably more so - based on past performance.

I still think that we aren't likely to find what Cohen brings to the table somewhere else out there, and that we shouldn't be putting timetables out there right now. I've seen a few "Next Year" or he's gone posts. And then what do we do? Here's a guy who loves MSU, is ultra competitive and works his *** off to see us win, who has won everywhere he's been, including our league in a terrible baseball situation. Who we gonna hire if Cohen doesn't work out? Steve Smith? Shoop? I was very disappointed in his coaching decisions yesterday. I think if he manages those games right, we take 2 from Bama and probably a spot in Hoover. We were obviously right there. But as for now, file in the "Have patience" side of things. Instead of thinking we are entitled to SEC championships, our fans need to realize where we are and how far we've fallen. And I still contend that Polk may be the biggest villain in all of MSU coaching history - not because he had a couple of bad recruiting classes and a bad pitching coach - but because he treated this program with absolute apathy since he came back. And now we are one of the worst in the SEC. Our fans need to understand where we are and why we are there. It's more important to have a tireless worker and recruiter that loves State and will stop at nothing to win here than to have a guy who doesn't make a bad decision on a pitcher or a second baseman.

 

[DowntownDawg]

...I've mostly kept silent on this, even though I've followed the team closely this year. A few things changed for me yesterday, though.

First of all, let me say that I am probably a Cohen apologist. I got to hang around him some last summer and hear him speak. As far as talk goes, he's got it. I will say that I felt at the time that we had simultaneously hired the anti-Polk, in terms of somebody being soft on his players and making excuses for them and being distracted by the NCAA and unfairness in the rules and things out of our control. He's also the anti-Polk in that he understands what it takes to recruit to MSU in this environment, and that we are not what we once were. All of those things are huge positives. I also got the sense from him that he wants nothing else but to lead MSU to new heights and that we are his destination job. If he has to can assistants, he will. If he has to cut guys, he will. He is not using MSU to get a raise and a better job. He loves Mississippi State and he is a ruthless competitor. I thought (and still do) that those two things make for a unique and great combination for a coach at State.

And as to this season, I think to this point, it's been fairly pointless to argue over playing Frost or Butler when you are giving up 30 + runs on the weekend to top 10 teams. If we play Butler, we might lose 10-6 instead of 10-4. Big Deal. If Whitney starts over Reed, does the outcome change on any given night? Routt and Watson gone for the year as well as Rawdow and Parks. We just don't have a great deck to play with. That said, we were good enough to beat Bama and really help ourselves get a spot in Hoover, which would've been a big and logical step for our program. We lost that series because of coaching decisions. Leaving Stratton in there was unexcusable, even though I understand his thinking. Taking Girodo out was a horrible move. And finally taking out Bracewell for Devin Jones was horrible as well. Then, in the next game, he left Bole in too long, and replaced him with Gravemen who walked the bases loaded and then Trey Johnson of all people, who has been a garbage guy most of the year. After Johnson loses the game for us, THEN we see Houston who promptly strikes his guy out and was obviously the better choice. For the first time, his coaching really negatively impacted us in a huge series.

The big picture remains the same. We've simply got to get players in here that can get a hit when you are tied in extra innings with two outs and the runner on third. We've got to get a good enough option to put in for Stratton when he is struggling so that we don't have to think twice about that. I still believe Cohen will get us those guys and that some of them are on the roster - they are just totally too young. If Girodo had pitched like he pitched Sunday all year, then it's a no brainer. Cohen knew that Girodo was as capable of giving up a homerun as Stratton - probably more so - based on past performance.

I still think that we aren't likely to find what Cohen brings to the table somewhere else out there, and that we shouldn't be putting timetables out there right now. I've seen a few "Next Year" or he's gone posts. And then what do we do? Here's a guy who loves MSU, is ultra competitive and works his *** off to see us win, who has won everywhere he's been, including our league in a terrible baseball situation. Who we gonna hire if Cohen doesn't work out? Steve Smith? Shoop? I was very disappointed in his coaching decisions yesterday. I think if he manages those games right, we take 2 from Bama and probably a spot in Hoover. We were obviously right there. But as for now, file in the "Have patience" side of things. Instead of thinking we are entitled to SEC championships, our fans need to realize where we are and how far we've fallen. And I still contend that Polk may be the biggest villain in all of MSU coaching history - not because he had a couple of bad recruiting classes and a bad pitching coach - but because he treated this program with absolute apathy since he came back. And now we are one of the worst in the SEC. Our fans need to understand where we are and why we are there. It's more important to have a tireless worker and recruiter that loves State and will stop at nothing to win here than to have a guy who doesn't make a bad decision on a pitcher or a second baseman.

 

[bill brasky.sixpack]

I think you are right about almost everything. He deserves at least one more year, the only way I would say he needs to be gone after next year is if we repeat this year and dont make Hoover, that happens he needs to be done. The injuries have hurt a lot this year too. I wouldnt say Polk has ever been apathetic towards Miss State, that was the mans life, he had one losing season his entire tenure at State, give me a break, Cohen is working on number two already (insert Polks fault here). Polk didnt leave much to work with, but what he has left are hitting well, and Cohen ran off everyone else save a few. Just a tough situation and I know that I get as frustrated as anyone.

Also I think that is part of Cohens problems is he wants to win so bad right now he gets blinded sometimes, and it takes the right kind of guy to play for him. I know a recruit that came on his visit and was just turned off by his attitude andI know another one who liked it, it is just a very divisive way he goes about things, which is not necessarily wrong, just different than what Miss. State is used to, with Captain Even Keel Ron Polk.

 

[8dog]

that its pointless to argue over the Butler/Frost thing or the use of Whitney. Whether it would make the difference in a win or a loss is irrelevant. Its displays incredible stubborness and/or poor decision making.

I don't think many on here are looking for a change yet, even after next year--which is shaping up to be another tough one. However, your suggestion of "who are we going to hire?" Lets do what Vandy did..or what ole miss did...or what Florida did...or what MSU baseball did. Lets hire a winner from a small school or a rising assistant like a Kyle Bunn.

Its really not that hard to win in baseball. The main thing is we need a lights out recruiter or a great pitching coach. And frankly, I haven't seen either on this staff.

 

[Goatdawg]

Hopefully it will help ingrain sense into some of these knuckleheads. Hard statistics haven't seemed to do the trick yet.

 

[bill brasky.sixpack]

Your stats are hot garbage

 

[OMlawdog]

I think some posters have expressed the idea that maybe its possible that he wasn't the right hire. Based on his performance so far, i think having those thoughts are reasonable. Calling for him to be fired are unreasonable.<div>
</div><div>Isn't it possible to think that Polk left Cohen a mess, and that Cohen isn't doing a good job this year? I would think that this is where some people are. They are giving Cohen a complete pass on this year and last year, but are also pointing out that some of his decisions have been questionable.</div><div>
</div><div>My issue with Cohen is the same issue I have with Bianco which is the lack of offensive power in the lineup. Looking so far at Cohen's recruits I don't see a lot of power potential. Someone correct me if Im wrong. Please don't come back to me with High School stats or Juco stats. This is the SEC brother, and what you did in HS or JUCO doesn't project to the SEC. If you want to keep up those type of stats, well go play intramurals. </div><div>
</div><div>It seems most MSU and OM fans are putting a ton of stock in next year's recruiting class, but when I look at the top 500 draft prosects, that are just a few of our signees mentioned. As opposed to LSU/SC/FL all of whom have several players listed, and for OM most of the top flight prospects are pitchers/injured.</div><div>
</div><div>The best part of all of this, is that MSU will probably take 2 out 3 from OM this weekend, and all will be well at MSU, and everyone will want MB fired at OM, and the world keeps on spinning.</div>

 

[BriantheDawg]

even if we were to take 2 of 3 from y'all this up-coming weekend, the season is pretty much done for us now. Our season hinged on the Bama series and with the sweep, we are virtually out of contention for the last spot in Hoover. If some folks proclaim all is well (should we win the series next weekend), then their priorities are simply not in order.

 

[8dog]

b/c our park plays so big.

I have disagreed with this for a while. 1. I've seen plenty of teams have no problem with our park's size. 2. Almost half your games are away from home and most of those are in power-friendly parks.

 

[DowntownDawg]

and play Duffy. We are a long way behind the top of the league.

Yes, it shows stubbornness, but he also got burned by our infield playing like crap earlier in the year with Butler et al out there. We haven't just been losing to the top of the league, we've been getting killed.

And my point on who would replace Cohen was not well put. I guess to me Cohen seems like our last opportunity to use the tradition of MSU baseball to help us have future success. If he does not work out, we're basically in a situation where we are one of the worst jobs in the league. So it's kind of like starting over or admitting defeat. There's no up and coming assistant out there with ties to MSU that gives us what Cohen can give us. I guess I feel that if Cohen fails, MSU baseball has basically become MSU football - a lower tier job in a power conference with very little competitive advantage. Our past success becomes somewhat irrelevant.

I don't know much about baseball recruiting, but he has done a good job so far in that category that I can tell. His first class is top 10. What else do you want?

 

[OMlawdog]

You can end up with a lineup that can't get you out of a Super Regional or can get cold in a Regional.<div>
</div><div>I have no problem with recruiting Power arms, but this year we have two recruits in Overbey and Poole, both of whom project as power hitters. We simply need more of them. </div><div>
</div><div>I don't like recruiting players that do not project power on the next level, unless you are signing plus speed or plus plus defense. Its just not my preference. I would rather have a 3B that hits 15-20 HR's and hits .290 then one that hits 4-7 HR's and hits .340. I just think in college baseball you are going to have more 10-8 games and once you get past the Top 3 pitchers on anyone's roster it comes down to your offense.</div><div>
</div><div>By the way, with the way our fans talk about Bobby Wahl and Darryl Norris, you would think they will both be two-time All Americans at each school. Like somehow losing Pomeranz and Powers is a wash because Wahl and Norris are coming in. </div><div>
</div><div>I didn't think OM would have a good year this year due to lack of power, and pitching behind Pom. But I have to give MB a ton of credit he has developed Barrett who was a joke last year, Huber who is replacing Morgan pretty damn well, and have started to see good things from Crouse, Tracy and Rothlin. If Im a MSU fan, that is what I want to see, improvement from the beginning of the year until now, you won't have consistency, but performances that let you see the light at the end of the tunnel. Two months ago I didn't think we had anyone behind Pom and Barrett, now I feel like we could do ok with a mixture of Tracy, Crouse, Rothlin and Goforth next year assuming a freshman doesn't step in. Sure we have a drop off, but everyone does.</div>

 

[Goatdawg]

Bad luck did. Some may call it choking. Who knows.

Ole Miss has had the talent to go to Omaha, well, every year since 2005. Maybe not 2008.

 

[OMlawdog]

That is what you think if Cohen fails? Really he is such a good coach that if he can't win, its because MSU just sucks at baseball? Really? Just not possible that Cohen didn't get the job done? <div>
</div><div>MSU baseball can compete with facilities, tradition, and most important salary with the top teams in the SEC. The reason MSU can compete with any team in the SEC in baseball is due to MONEY, and MSU baseball can and has generated income for MSU.</div><div>
</div><div>There is no reason that MSU should not be consistently in the top 20 in baseball. There are not enough schools in the SEC that take baseball as seriously as MSU does. It can be competitive because MSU fans actually care about baseball.</div><div>
</div><div>I can't believe that Im sitting here telling an MSU fan how great their baseball program can be and in fact is. If Cohen doesn't win at MSU, that is on Cohen not MSU. MSU has made commitments both in facilities and money to be competitive throughout the country, not just the SEC. </div><div>
</div><div>If Bianco fails to get to Omaha, guess what, that is on Bianco. OM baseball is a top 20 baseball program and has the facilities, fan support and money to be a top program.</div>

 

[Goatdawg]

is that he's seeing things in practice that's making him not want to play these guys. They are in his doghouse for a reason, and it's not just because they aren't his own guys ie Polk players, I don't care what Russ Sneed's mom says.

Alot of those seniors have attitude problems. Cohen's going to do what he thinks will help us win. These guys' comparison to Croom's stubbornessshows their ignorance.

 

[Tito Cheeseburger Jr]

1. Larry Templeton for matching us with Texas
2. ASU for cheatin'
3. John Grisham for saving the UVA baseball program
4. Miami...I forget the reason for this one.
5. The pitcher for Western Kentucky who was possessed by the spirit of Old Hoss Radbourn for one night

 

[patdog]

Bianco's one huge failure in the post-season was the Miami year. No excuse at all for you not to make the CWS that year. Arizona St. was simply the better team and playing at home, cheating or no cheating.</p>

 

[DowntownDawg]

....our program has really gone downhill. Our facilities are easily in the bottom 3rd of the league. Who has worse facilities than us right now? UT? UK?

In the west, Arkansas, Ole Miss, LSU, and Auburn have all made major upgrades/investments. Look at South Carolina. We've got skyboxes that flood when it rains. Our park is outdated.

Our fan support is beginning to dwindle as well. Just too much sorry baseball. We can't attract a big name right now. We might get lucky on an assistant, but again, there is no competitive advantage there. So could anybody else in the conference. It becomes a crapshoot at that point. After Cohen, we are hiring some asst. coach or small time head coach that is just happy to be at an SEC school.

The rest of the league has passed us by. And Polk sat idly by and let that happen.

 

[Goatdawg]

That deal was damn near done. Won Game 1, had them on the ropes in the next two games. Just an ultimate choke.

 

[Goatdawg]

we had a great crowd at SBW. More than most people see in Super Regionals.

And if anything, people are excited we've got Cohen in place, because anybody who knows anything knows he's going to accomplish a good bit here.

Fan apathy was at it's peak under Polk. Those huge crowds we have for the Super were for that weekend ONLY.

 

[8dog]

our problem is an us problem. We are sucking b/c ole miss is winning. We aren't sucking b/c SC is winning.

And frankly, recruits don't really care that much about facilities. If they did, we'd have won 5 national titles in the 90s.

You think the old Alex Box was nice? Have you seen Cal State Fullerton's digs?

 

[DowntownDawg]

...has popped into my head a time or two. But the major difference is one that I've already pointed out. Cohen loves MSU. Croom did not. Cohen will not let anything get in the way of achieving his goals. Croom let his friedship with McCorvey do that. So I don't think the comparison goes that far.

I think we are still really struggling with the transition from Polk to Cohen. Those players, by and large, have not really bought in. I don't think Cohen gets absolved from blame there, but I think what it does create is that it takes us longer to get back to where we should be.

 

[rebel law]

and then Chuck Knoblauch entered Evan Button's body. Texas was a screw job. No sense in "rewarding" a national seed by pairing them with Texas, who had the #1 RPI that year. Miami was a choke job. Getting sent to Tempe was a death sentence. Although we choked away game 1, we wouldn't have won that series anyway. Last year was a choke job. Turns out thatUVA team wasn't bad either.

 

[Goatdawg]

Fullerton has no one to compete against with facilities. Everybody has a ****** stadium out there. And California area players are likely going to stick around that area in general. That goes for everywhere.

LSU is going to get the Louisiana players by and large, and there's plenty of them.

You're comparison to Ole Miss is valid (even though I'm not sure you meant it that way). We do compete with them for MS recruits. But outside of that, we have to do what we have to do to attract the bigger guys. You really think we got those Alabama players because they liked MSU over Bammer and Auburn? Hell no. They wanted to play in front of huge *** crowds, and because Cohen is a proven coach.

 

[DowntownDawg]

....but somebody has to be 12th. Right now it's us. How do we get to be a better program than OM or SC? Facilities may be more of an outward indicator of program health, but the results are there on the field, too. They're kicking our *** and have been for some time.

Our program is poor right now. Anybody hanging on to tradition is similar to a 70's era Ole Miss fan hanging on to the days of Archie.

 

[Goatdawg]

High school coaches all over Mississippi and even beyond are lapping up the Cohen Kool-Aid. That I say with certainty.

 

[8dog]

someone that can recruit and develop arms. Corbin and Bianco are prime examples. They inherited bad programs with no facilities and no fan support (hell, corbin still doesn't have either despite some renovations there).

If you can look at the perfect game top 500 for the class of 2010 and the class of 2011 and tell me that Cohen is doing what you thought he would recruiting wise then we'll just have to agree to disagree. One of the main reasons we got the arms we did last year is b/c Butch was already on them when he was at Auburn.

 

[DowntownDawg]

....I think our attendance is pretty down for us. May be wrong. I know it has been when I've heard Jim announce it on the radio. 2-4k most friday nights - I'm thinking.

 

[Tds &amp; Beer]

There's no way in hell people should be talking about him being fired yet. But at the same time, it's ok to discuss the coaching decisions. As long as we're discussing them and not ranting like he's not the right man for the job. We don't know if he will be yet. I believe he will be. But it's like everybody forgot all of a sudden that we're not that good and we never were supposed to be good this year. If Cohen had a disappointing season next year, I would still want to see him here for one more. But only if his players were sticking around. From talking to someone at SBW, it sounds like a lot of guys are considering transfers.

 

[DowntownDawg]

...and I honestly can't speak enough to that except to look at rankings put out by the only publications I know of.

Two publications were cited on here and had last year's class at top 10 and top 15. That's all I know to go by.

 

[RebelBruiser]

I wouldn't say it was a screw job though. They had two teams in the Big 12 with better conference resumes than they had that year, so they were the Big 12 team left outside of the national seed picture. They were a great team obviously, and we were unfortunate enough to be the team to draw them.

Outside of that, we haven't been screwed by our draw once. In fact, I'd say we had some fortunate draws by hosting 2 Supers when we weren't national seeds. I'll also say we've had good fortune in our regional match ups most years. Looking back, I can't think of too many traditional powers in down years that were sent to Oxford. Drawing Tulane as a 2 seed in 2004 and 2006 is the closest thing. We've never drawn a program like Miami, Clemson, Georgia Tech, or someone like that in a down year for one of our regional opponents. Missouri last year was a decent program sent to Oxford, but by no means a traditional power that's used to winning regionals.

Also, if you look at who has eliminated us in the Bianco era, Texas in 2005 is the only team to go to Omaha and do better than 1-2 in Omaha. The rest of the teams that eliminated us and later made it to Omaha were out fairly quickly, so we really can't complain about draws outside of 1 year. Everyone is going to get a bad draw every so often. The unfortunate thing for us is that our one time we got a bad draw was probably the most talented team Bianco had.

 

[War Machine Dawg]

[No message]

 

[Agentdog]

Yep, what Goat said. State's baseball tradition and facilities are no longer a factor. State baseball is now in the same position as every other sport on campus. We are recruiting against bigger schools with larger talent pools in more attactive places to attend school. It is going to take a coach that can really recruit his *** off to be a perennial winner at State.

 

[Todd4State]

....but somebody has to be 12th. Right now it's us. How do we get to be a better program than OM or SC? Facilities may be more of an outward indicator of program health, but the results are there on the field, too. They're kicking our *** and have been for some time.

Our program is poor right now. Anybody hanging on to tradition is similar to a 70's era Ole Miss fan hanging on to the days of Archie.

We've got to do our part to. We need to promote the Dugout Club almost as much as the Bulldog Club. People need to join if they want us to go to the next level. Then, people need to go to games. I plan on going to everyone in Jackson and I have been to three and plan on going this weekend. I'm not going to tell anyone to go to every game or anything like that- honestly, I can't do that with my work schedule either, much less ask someone to do it. BUT it is very possible to go to a Saturday game and that's better than nothing. I hear about a lot of people "waiting on the team to turn it around". If our fans are supposed to that great, they need to show up. Seriously, it's like 5-10 dollars a ticket.

The thing that worries me right now about our baseball program more than anything is this: Our administration is putting the stadium on the back burner for other projects. I understand that we have needs, and I'm not blaming anyone in the AD for that, but we really need to start looking at our facilities and upgrading them big time.

 

[bulldogcountry1]

1. Butch Thompson -With the exception ofHouston, there isno one pitcher that you can really say that has improved under his watch. We have some talented freshmen, but I just don'tseeprogress being made. A better pitching coach could have easily gotten us 6 more wins this season. I don't think anyone would be crying if we were 26-14 right now.

2. Cohen recruited too many HS pitchers and not enough HS position players - Yeah, we needed an entire pitching staff, but we don't have a single freshman making a splash in the lineup. It might not matteras far as wins and losesthat we don't have a true freshman hitting .275, but what's going to happen next year? Even if problem 1 is rectified,who will be driving in the runs?

Next year could be even worse.

 

[8dog]

d

 

[dawgoneyall]

Funny that leaving Stratton in against Tenn was a brilliant move.