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The Cardinals are pissing me off

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Todd4State

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OK- so they're not going to let Adam Wainwright and Lance Lynn go past 200 innings this year? Well, if that's the case- don't let them go past six in any start. Both are up to almost 100 IP's as it is.

In other words- we're not going to compete this year. We're going to do the World Series champions circle jerk like 2007.

And I guess if they happen to make the playoffs- which isn't out of the realm of possibilty- I guess they're going to go with Joe Kelly, Lohse and Westbrook in a three man rotation. At least they are being backed up by a ****** bullpen.

Knowing that's the case- having Roy Oswalt sure would be nice right about now.

So, because Mozeliak is an idiot- the Cardinals are going to have to try to make a trade for starting pitching because of the pussies in the starting rotation. Hell- Lynn pitched for Bianco. He of all people should be used to handling abuse. Which means the bullpen will remain ******. Nice work front office.

And I hate, hate, hate, hate the 120 pitch ******** that is hurting pitchers more than helping them. Back in the day- you think anybody in MLB would shut a pitcher down for throwing too much? Horseshit. Limiting pitch counts sure kept Strasburg from getting Tommy John. And meanwhile in Texas, Nolan Ryan comes up with his plan- which is how it SHOULD be and they hardly ever have any injuries. Maybe once they finally win- and I will be pulling for them unless they are playing the Cardinals- people will wake the 17 up. Three pennants and a World Championship are hard to ignore.

FWIW- Butch does a lot of the same things the Rangers do and it has greatly reduced our injuries and caused an increase in our pitchers velocity.
 
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Todd4State

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OK- so they're not going to let Adam Wainwright and Lance Lynn go past 200 innings this year? Well, if that's the case- don't let them go past six in any start. Both are up to almost 100 IP's as it is.

In other words- we're not going to compete this year. We're going to do the World Series champions circle jerk like 2007.

And I guess if they happen to make the playoffs- which isn't out of the realm of possibilty- I guess they're going to go with Joe Kelly, Lohse and Westbrook in a three man rotation. At least they are being backed up by a ****** bullpen.

Knowing that's the case- having Roy Oswalt sure would be nice right about now.

So, because Mozeliak is an idiot- the Cardinals are going to have to try to make a trade for starting pitching because of the pussies in the starting rotation. Hell- Lynn pitched for Bianco. He of all people should be used to handling abuse. Which means the bullpen will remain ******. Nice work front office.

And I hate, hate, hate, hate the 120 pitch ******** that is hurting pitchers more than helping them. Back in the day- you think anybody in MLB would shut a pitcher down for throwing too much? Horseshit. Limiting pitch counts sure kept Strasburg from getting Tommy John. And meanwhile in Texas, Nolan Ryan comes up with his plan- which is how it SHOULD be and they hardly ever have any injuries. Maybe once they finally win- and I will be pulling for them unless they are playing the Cardinals- people will wake the 17 up. Three pennants and a World Championship are hard to ignore.

FWIW- Butch does a lot of the same things the Rangers do and it has greatly reduced our injuries and caused an increase in our pitchers velocity.
 
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nsvltndog

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The Nationals have been talking all season about keeping Straburg to 160 innings. He's 48% of the way there. That is going to be really interesting to watch if they are still in 1st place or contending in the insanely competitive NL East in late August when he is projected to hit the 160 inning threshold.
 
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Todd4State

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if a guy is coming off of Tommy John- like Wainwright and Strasburg- and you know that you are going to limit their innings pitched- it makes a lot more sense to me to shut them down on the front end of the season rather than the back end.
 
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patdog

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if they shut him down for the last month of the season in 1st place and then lose the division. I agree, if you need to limit him to 160 innings (and that's a big if), either do it at the beginning of the season or just pitch him once a week. That would be a strange rotation, but you could make it work. But if they follow through with what they say they're going to do, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.
 
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DAWG61

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going 120+ pitches in one outing compared to 20-30 years ago is staggering. I saw this on the MLBNetwork the other day. It was something over 1,000+ outings in the same amount of games 25 years ago or whenever ( I can't remember exactly the dates) compared to only 25ish in the current day timeframe. The amount of serious arm injury surgeries is up 2,000% too. Haha I made that last stat up but it's not too far off. A huge part of this is that the pitchers come back stronger after the surgeries now so the teams are seeing future benefits by going the surgery route. 17edupbeyondallrecognitionku
 
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Todd4State

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I feel like a pitcher at the MLB level should be able to handle 150 pitches. Not that I think they should throw 150 every start- but in general that's what they should be able to handle. If MLB is having to shut pitchers down during the season because they feel like they are overworking them- then they are failing at the minor league level.

I know you have probably seen my analogy before- but I'll say it again- what they do with pitchers would be like expecting a runner to train by running 1 or 2 miles for a 5K and then wonder why that runner can't finish the race.

I feel like each pitcher has their own personal pitch count based on their height, weight, how much effort they put into their delivery, and how well they repeat their mechanics. For some guys, that may be 100. For others that could be as high as 165. Nolan Ryan has thrown 200 pitch games before.

About arm injuries- I haven't seen any studies, but I'm not sure if the rate of injury is better than it was back in the day. I do think the rate of full recovery is much, much better. It sure doesn't seem like the rate of injury is better though. I would suspect it's the same or worse, but I could be wrong about that.
 
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DAWG61

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why teams don't do this and the 6th pitcher would be a rotation of the 5 starting pitchers on their tripleA team. I'm guessing theirs only so many times they can call up a player and then send them back to the minors though. Would be a great development tool for those 5 pitchers. Each would get 5-6 starts a year in the majors. Tough to sell the idea of 27 games being started by 5+ different minor league pitchers. The Rockies just recently announced they are limiting their starting pitchers to 75 pitches a game. Wonder how this will work for them?

http://www.denverpost.com...tional-four-man-rotation
 
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Todd4State

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limits. I think teams are basically saying that they would rather have the extra relief pitcher or infielder/outfielder than a sixth starting pitcher. Also- you have to take into consideration match-ups. If you're the only team with a six man rotation, there are going to be times where you are throwing your sixth guy against a team's ace. And yes, there would also be times where your ace would be facing a team's fifth starter- but I guess most teams figure that they would rather have a relatively even match-up than an advantage in a few games with a potentially distinct disadvantage in a few others. It probably comes out in the wash depending on who your ace is I guess.

I like the idea of a six man rotation- but I think for it to happen, MLB is going to have to expand the roster to 26.

And yes, they can send their sixth guy to minor leagues, but what's the point in that if the guy isn't going to pitch in AAA and is going to be called up for his start anyway? Which is again, why I say expand the roster to 26. Plus, you would be limiting your AAA roster to 24 which may or may not be a big deal.

Bottom line is it's easier to work it out with a 26 man roster.
 
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patdog

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That's ridiculous. Good luck ever making the playoffs with that kind of disadvantage. There's no reason to with anything more than a 5-man rotation. Pitchers throw about half their starts with 4 days rest and half with 5 days rest. That's plenty of rest between starts.
 
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babbleBrebel

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Have changed. Pitchers go max effort every pitch, throw sliders, splitters etc. Which has resulted in pitchers getting hurt more often. The "back in my day" philosophy is way off-base to put it nicely. The medical science has proven these guys SHOULD be getting hurt due to the stress all this puts on the arm. Things have changed. This isn't about philosophies or being tough.
 
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patdog

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Just like in every sport, everyone's bigger faster and sronger than ever. Problem is, you can't do anything to strengthen things like tendons and joints. With the increased stresses that are put on them, they will break more.
 
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DAWG61

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your farm system and developing your pitchers. This isn't a one year commitment. It's a long term dedication to building the teams pitching. If a teams tripleA starters can't make a start in the majors once a month then why are they even on the tripleA team? Your team and your strategy would win in year one most likely but I'd be destroying you 5 years down the road and every year after that. Is that ridiculous too?
 
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patdog

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But it's about winning games. That's the #1 priority. You're basically talking about sacrificing 1/6 of the season every year to develop players for the future. Nobody's ever going to do that. You bring players up and let them play at the major league level when they've demonstrated that they're ready, or if you have to because of injuries. Not before.
 
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DAWG61

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I see it as an advantage. None of the opposing batters have faced your pitcher most likely ever. Huge advantage for your pitcher. Plus all of your other 5 pitchers get an extra day of rest every week of the season.
 
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Todd4State

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Pitcher's mechanics are much more clean now and the coaching is much better than what it used to be. If anything, with technology and advances in medicine, pitchers should be throwing longer. To say that pitchers throw max effort every pitch is off base to say the least.

The one area that hasn't advanced is the conditioning aspect.

I think once that gets squared away, we are going to see significantly fewer injuries.
 
DesotoCountyDawg

DesotoCountyDawg

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Unless he has phenomenal stuff (which is doubtful) he's going to start getting hit around. There's a reason he's a AAA pitcher.
 
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Ol Blue.sixpack

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Todd4State said:
So, because Mozeliak is an idiot- the Cardinals are going to have to try to make a trade for starting pitching because of the pussies in the starting rotation. e any injuries.
Click to expand...
So you think decisions like this are made in a vacuum?<div>
</div><div>I'm not surprised.

</div>
 
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Todd4State

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No, I don't think they made these decisions in a vacuum- whatever the hell that means. I think they knew that they just won the World Series and people were going to come out regardless whether they won or not. I think they knew that they were going to make a ton of money even if they had a bad product on the field and don't care about winning for now.

They knew during spring training that Carpenter was going to be hurt. They knew before the season that they were going to limit Wainwright. They knew that Lynn had limited innings pitched. They had Roy Oswalt begging to come on board. And yet, they didn't do it. It's not like they didn't see some of these things coming.

Now, they've missed out completely on Oswalt and I doubt they will be able to get anyone worth anything outside unless you consider Jeremy Guthrie and Jamie Moyer worth anything.
 
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Ol Blue.sixpack

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Todd4State said:
No, I don't think they made these decisions in a vacuum- whatever the hell that means. I think they knew that they just won the World Series and people were going to come out regardless whether they won or not. I think they knew that they were going to make a ton of money even if they had a bad product on the field and don't care about winning for now.

They knew during spring training that Carpenter was going to be hurt. They knew before the season that they were going to limit Wainwright. They knew that Lynn had limited innings pitched. They had Roy Oswalt begging to come on board. And yet, they didn't do it. It's not like they didn't see some of these things coming.

Now, they've missed out completely on Oswalt and I doubt they will be able to get anyone worth anything outside unless you consider Jeremy Guthrie and Jamie Moyer worth anything.
Click to expand...


Are you pissed off about them putting the two guys on an innings watch or are you acknowledging that they need to proceed with caution on Wainwright and Lynn and they should have had a contingency plan. Seems like you don't really know what to be pissed off about. Having said that, I don't know too many major league teams that go into a season with 6 or 7 starters without having some help in the minor leagues. But I have to admit - as simplistic and general as it is - your approach would come in handy. Might blow the budget, but it would be a luxary.

As for Oswalt, let's not kid ourselves. His "begging" came with a pretty heavy price tag for a part time player.

What you don't seem to grasp is the fact that the Cardinals are a business - not some hobby for a bunch of fat cats.
 
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boomboommsu

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there is a rule that says a player that's been sent down, can't be brought back up for a certain amount of time unless there's an injury. 10 or 15 days or something like that. otherwise you can call them up and back down as much as you want for the year, it only counts the first time as using an 'option'.

most playoff contenders probably have a couple guys in AAA that are almost Major League-ready, but that's it. plus, the better they are, the less you'd want to start their service time before they're ready, as that's just costing you $ later. also, 5th starters are one of the most cost-efficient FA buys out there.

and as is, most teams don't really use a 5-man rotation, it's more like a 4 and a half man rotation, as the 5th guy gets skipped when off-days allow.
 
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Foronce

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However, you guys do have like one of the best minor league systems in terms of talent and we do have pitchers; any chance we do some trades?
 
missouridawg

missouridawg

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dump the farm for him. He's a number 2 guy at best and he's a borderline headcase, which STL doesn't like to deal with.

And for the record, I really can't see the STL brass shutting Waino down at 160 IP if we're in the race. They won't do that.
 
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Ol Blue.sixpack

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missouridawg said:
dump the farm for him. He's a number 2 guy at best and he's a borderline headcase, which STL doesn't like to deal with.

And for the record, I really can't see the STL brass shutting Waino down at 160 IP if we're in the race. They won't do that.
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but I don't see the Cubs trading a pitcher likeGarza to a division rival. Plus, I'm not sure the Cardshave an A level prospect to get a deal like that done.
 
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Todd4State

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I understand rehabbing your pitchers. But if you are going to limit your pitchers, and know that they have restrictions, don't have them throw seven innings in a game in May and June. And if you do insist on throwing them that much early, make sure you have a back-up plan. I'm saying do one or the other. Personally, I would have preferred that they just make the go five than go out and get a bunch of people.

Their plan is apparently to ride Kyle Lohse and Jake Westbrook and a bunch of AAAA pitchers and see where it goes. That's not going to work.

They could have had Oswalt for a minor league deal- which is what the Rangers got him for. I wouldn't have signed him in spring training when he wanted 5 million or whatever he wanted. Just wait until the season starts and then do what the Rangers did. Force him to either sign a minor league deal or sit out. A minor league deal won't break anyone's bank. Especially if they are going after Matt Garza as the rumors say they are. Heck, I would actually prefer Oswalt over Garza any and every day and he is the cheaper of the two.
 
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Ol Blue.sixpack

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Todd4State said:
I understand rehabbing your pitchers. But if you are going to limit your pitchers, and know that they have restrictions, don't have them throw seven innings in a game in May and June. And if you do insist on throwing them that much early, make sure you have a back-up plan. I'm saying do one or the other. Personally, I would have preferred that they just make the go five than go out and get a bunch of people.

Their plan is apparently to ride Kyle Lohse and Jake Westbrook and a bunch of AAAA pitchers and see where it goes. That's not going to work.

They could have had Oswalt for a minor league deal- which is what the Rangers got him for. I wouldn't have signed him in spring training when he wanted 5 million or whatever he w
anted. Just wait until the season starts and then do what the Rangers did. Force him to either sign a minor league deal or sit out. A minor league deal won't break anyone's bank. Especially if they are going after Matt Garza as the rumors say they are. Heck, I would actually prefer Oswalt over Garza any and every day and he is the cheaper of the two.
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Hardly a minor league deal.
 
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MSDawg34

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That was amateurish and caused Allen Craig to be taken out. At first I thought Ozzie was doing the Cohen ice the pitcher but he caught it
 
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Todd4State

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However, it was 4 million with the 1 million after 10 starts.

The report I googled said it was a minor league deal and obviously it was wrong.

Nonetheless, my point stands- if they are going after Matt Garza and his 9.5 million deal, they could have gone after Oswalt.

I, like you, doubt they end up with Garza. Unless the Cubs know there is something bad wrong with him.
 
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Ol Blue.sixpack

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Todd4State said:
However, it was 4 million with the 1 million after 10 starts.

The report I googled said it was a minor league deal and obviously it was wrong.

Nonetheless, my point stands- if they are going after Matt Garza and his 9.5 million deal, they could have gone after Oswalt.

I, like you, doubt they end up with Garza. Unless the Cubs know there is something bad wrong with him.
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I think when it all said and done, the Rangers will not get a very good return on their $6MM short term investment.
 
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babbleBrebel

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