The difference for me at this point

[Captain Ron]

I am looking back on all the years of Cowbell off seasons and I am trying to compare the misery index. This certainly compares favorably to Crooms last year. Although I felt the teams were more disciplined that of JWS last years, his stubbornness with his assistants (Mcorvey) and boneheaded in game decisions (GA Tech anyone) feel the same. As I understand it, if he could stay he was willing to fire some people. Too late for me.

Well, with Jeff he is only going to be in his 3rd year now but with modern college football and the lack of recruiting excitement etc, there is less patience. Even if he changes the staff, is it enough to create excitement for next year? Not for me.

A 5-7 season by itself isn’t the sole variable. I am still left questioning Jeff’s ability to be a head coach. Mullen for example, demonstrated to me he was head coach material after his first year, and of course his second year was validation. He or JWS could have an off year because they had proven they could win as a head coach where as Jeff/Sly had not.

Once the first ball is kicked off next year and if the team looks amazing, all will be forgotten. I am just not sure short of resurrecting Ditka to coach the defense and the greatest portal haul ever, how the excitement meter moves off of zero.

FWIW, you can go back the old KU message board days and won’t find a message of me being critical of a coach after just 2 seasons. Not even Crooms.

 

[Puppers]

I still think Lebby could be a good HC but he isn't yet. If he makes some good staff changes and can hit the portal hard I believe it gives us a better chance to be good next year than if we started over with an new coach. Kamario being QB1 is a big part of that.

Even though he had a much better record I was 100% certain after 2 years that JoMo wasn't going to work.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I still think Lebby could be a good HC but he isn't yet.

None of these guys are dumb. It's sort of like elected officials, we like to criticize and all this stuff but if you're ever face to face with them, you can tell that they are pretty impressive people, at least on the surface. So I do think they are all capable in the right circumstances, even Croom. If he'd embraced being a CEO/recruiter, and went out and let his coaches coach, he could have been more successful. But ego gets in the way of everything.......I mean look at the uniforms themselves in that era......he thought that actually made a difference.

 

[ckDOG]

I'd have a lot more patience if he'd go out and hire a real DC that can help acquire the depth necessary for a defense playing opposite of a fast offense. Act like a real HC instead of an OC that appears to be simply hoping for the best on the other side of the ball. The stats demand change.

If he doesn't have the ability to make changes this offseason, he needs to go back to being a coordinator. HC isn't for him.

 

[Bullldawg78]

I'd have a lot more patience if he'd go out and hire a real DC that can help acquire the depth necessary for a defense playing opposite of a fast offense. Act like a real HC instead of an OC that appears to be simply hoping for the best on the other side of the ball. The stats demand change.

If he doesn't have the ability to make changes this offseason, he needs to go back to being a coordinator. HC isn't for him.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I'd have a lot more patience if he'd go out and hire a real DC that can help acquire the depth necessary for a defense playing opposite of a fast offense. Act like a real HC instead of an OC that appears to be simply hoping for the best on the other side of the ball. The stats demand change.

If he doesn't have the ability to make changes this offseason, he needs to go back to being a coordinator. HC isn't for him.

It’s too late for that honestly. If you’re mature enough to be a head coach, you already know you can’t hire a guy like Hustler.

Hustler may turn out fine. I mean you have to get experience to have experience right? But not at our expense with a first time head coach. Lebby should have known better then, not be forced to make a change now to save his own job.

 

[ckDOG]

It’s too late for that honestly. If you’re mature enough to be a head coach, you already know you can’t hire a guy like Hustler.

Hustler may turn out fine. I mean you have to get experience to have experience right? But not at our expense with a first time head coach. Lebby should have known better then, not be forced to make a change now to save his own job.

Agree. It was a real head scratcher going completely green on defense. I'll never understand that hire unless everyone with experience simply said no (very possible). And if that's the case then it's on Selmon not having put together a package that a half decent experienced DC wouldn't say no to. You can't let a bunch of greenhorns run everything in the SEC. This is program management 101 stuff.

Torbush wasn't a world beater for Mullen, but even Mullen's ego at least understood an experienced vet was needed on the other side of the ball while he was learning to be an HC.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

I felt more hopeless with Croom than Lebby. Lebby has a lot of positives but to this point they’ve been overshadowed by stupid decisions both on and off the field

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Torbush wasn't a world beater for Mullen, but even Mullen's ego at least understood an experienced vet was needed on the other side of the ball while he was learning to be an HC.

Yep. And by doing that, he was very easy to get rid of at season's end, rather than your friend. Plus it hurts Hustler's career to be fired, whereas Torbush, who cares. Why even go that route? Simple - he wasn't head coach material and that's been proven out.

 

[ckDOG]

Yep. And by doing that, he was very easy to get rid of at season's end, rather than your friend. Plus it hurts Hustler's career to be fired, whereas Torbush, who cares. Why even go that route? Simple - he wasn't head coach material and that's been proven out.

Yep. Fortunately for Lebby time hasn't run out. But he's gotta **** or get off the pot if he wants this head coach thing to work out for him.

 

[Bullldawg78]

You can't have a OC getting OJT and a DC getting the same, oh wait he brought in experienced analyst, did he listen to anything they said? Maybe 20 minutes before the EB when they said you may want to start Taylor? I can't wait for thit ShitShowtime b
Next year!

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I felt more hopeless with Croom than Lebby. Lebby has a lot of positives but to this point they’ve been overshadowed by stupid decisions both on and off the field

I felt the exact same with Croom, Moorhead and now Lebby. They were just all in different 'eras' so the way I reacted to them was different. Croom was the old days.......people still believed in honor and discipline and all that shlt. It wasn't terribly unreasonable to give 3-4 years to cycle the crootin back in those days. Moorhead was more of the modern era before NIL/portal, and Lebby is of course now. But I think we all knew in year 1 that there were serious issues.

 

[POTUS]

It sucks to end the season like we did, but 5-7 is a lot better than 2-10. And now it’s clear what he has to do, he’s gotta show improvement again, which means going bowling. Honestly the croom comparisons are silly to me. I never felt like Croom was a good coach, even in 2007. At least Lebby has a vision for our offense. I don’t want to go back to having to win 17-14 and knowing that if we’re down late, it’s over.

 

[msudawg1200]

I am looking back on all the years of Cowbell off seasons and I am trying to compare the misery index. This certainly compares favorably to Crooms last year. Although I felt the teams were more disciplined that of JWS last years, his stubbornness with his assistants (Mcorvey) and boneheaded in game decisions (GA Tech anyone) feel the same. As I understand it, if he could stay he was willing to fire some people. Too late for me.

Well, with Jeff he is only going to be in his 3rd year now but with modern college football and the lack of recruiting excitement etc, there is less patience. Even if he changes the staff, is it enough to create excitement for next year? Not for me.

A 5-7 season by itself isn’t the sole variable. I am still left questioning Jeff’s ability to be a head coach. Mullen for example, demonstrated to me he was head coach material after his first year, and of course his second year was validation. He or JWS could have an off year because they had proven they could win as a head coach where as Jeff/Sly had not.

Once the first ball is kicked off next year and if the team looks amazing, all will be forgotten. I am just not sure short of resurrecting Ditka to coach the defense and the greatest portal haul ever, how the excitement meter moves off of zero.

FWIW, you can go back the old KU message board days and won’t find a message of me being critical of a coach after just 2 seasons. Not even Crooms.

I'm going to be "that" guy. Ditka is not dead so he doesn't need resurrecting, nor was he a defensive coach. You might be thinking of his DC on that 85 Bears team which was Buddy Ryan who is dead and was a hell of a DC.Carry on.

 

[L4Dawg]

It sucks to end the season like we did, but 5-7 is a lot better than 2-10. And now it’s clear what he has to do, he’s gotta show improvement again, which means going bowling. Honestly the croom comparisons are silly to me. I never felt like Croom was a good coach, even in 2007. At least Lebby has a vision for our offense. I don’t want to go back to having to win 17-14 and knowing that if we’re down late, it’s over.

This is pretty much the way I look at it. This is the biggest rebuilding job I have ever seen at MSU, and I date back to the Bob Tyler days. Progress is the key word, we did absolutely show progress this year.

 

[patdog]

I still think Lebby could be a good HC but he isn't yet. I

What have you seen to make you think that? Was it his assistant coaching hires? His recruiting? His play calling? His management of the game? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I saw it with Jackie in September of his 1st season. I saw it with Dan Mullen in his 1st season. Not so much with Leach in his 1st season, but you figured he'd be somewhat competitive once he got his system fully installed. We're 2 years in with Lebby and I just don't see it.

 

[Puppers]

What have you seen to make you think that? Was it his assistant coaching hires? His recruiting? His play calling? His management of the game? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I saw it with Jackie in September of his 1st season. I saw it with Dan Mullen in his 1st season. Not so much with Leach in his 1st season, but you figured he'd be somewhat competitive once he got his system fully installed. We're 2 years in with Lebby and I just don't see it.

Mostly I think that the offense will be great with Kamario. We have done well with backs and receivers. He made bad hires on defense and the OL that have really hurt this program. If he can get that right then we will be good next season. If he can't then we will move on.

I just don't see a realistic alternative for next season that makes us better. The ending of this season sucked but if we make the right moves this off-season we can be better in every position group in 2026.

 

[patdog]

Mostly I think that the offense will be great with Kamario. We have done well with backs and receivers. He made bad hires on defense and the OL that have really hurt this program. If he can get that right then we will be good next season. If he can't then we will move on.

I just don't see a realistic alternative for next season that makes us better. The ending of this season sucked but if we make the right moves this off-season we can be better in every position group in 2026.

I'm concerned about Taylor's passing accuracy. His mechanics don't look good, and it's usually very hard for bad passers to suddenly improve much. I do think worst case he'll be a decent but inconsistent QB. Best case, he could be a superstar.

 

[Bullldawg78]

I'm concerned about Taylor's passing accuracy. His mechanics don't look good, and it's usually very hard for bad passers to suddenly improve much. I do think worst case he'll be a decent but inconsistent QB. Best case, he could be a superstar.

The problem is he needs a true QB coach, maybe someone who played it, not a HC who was a Olineman?

 

[Howiefeltersnstch]

Im sure there are gonna be big changes defensively in the next week or two. Everybody knows this is unsustainable. I thought it improved but it collapsed in the Texas game and has been horrible since. People have to be replaced

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This is pretty much the way I look at it. This is the biggest rebuilding job I have ever seen at MSU, and I date back to the Bob Tyler days. Progress is the key word, we did absolutely show progress this year.

EL OH 17ING EL.

You ever heard of this thing called the portal? Not to mention so many of our decent contributors were Leach guys, who will now be gone.

That 3-9 is gonna hit ya'll sheep hard.

 

[L4Dawg]

EL OH 17ING EL.

You ever heard of this thing called the portal? Not to mention so many of our decent contributors were Leach guys, who will now be gone.

That 3-9 is gonna hit ya'll sheep hard.

I wouldn't be surprised at all by 3-9 next year, or worse. I also wouldn't be surprised by 6-6 or 7-5.

 

[dawgstudent]

I'm concerned about Taylor's passing accuracy. His mechanics don't look good, and it's usually very hard for bad passers to suddenly improve much. I do think worst case he'll be a decent but inconsistent QB. Best case, he could be a superstar.

I meant to come back to this. I 100% disagree with all of it except the last sentence. Taylor has an arm that is better than any other QB we've seen. His mechanics are fine. Accuracy will come with more reps.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I'd have a lot more patience if he'd go out and hire a real DC that can help acquire the depth necessary for a defense playing opposite of a fast offense. Act like a real HC instead of an OC that appears to be simply hoping for the best on the other side of the ball. The stats demand change.

If he doesn't have the ability to make changes this offseason, he needs to go back to being a coordinator. HC isn't for him.

#1 reason people fail at new jobs is they don't stop doing their old job. He needs to lean away from comfort (OC) and into discomfort (HC growing pains).

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

I wouldn't be surprised at all by 3-9 next year, or worse. I also wouldn't be surprised by 6-6 or 7-5.

We know someone is praying real hard that State is 3-9 so he can be right.

 

[paindonthurt]

It's sort of like elected officials, we like to criticize and all this stuff but if you're ever face to face with them, you can tell that they are pretty impressive people

there are a lot of elected officials who have a lower IQ than you and that’s a pretty GD low bar

 

[QuaoarsKing]

It's just baffling to me that even Jeff Lebby's biggest defender "wouldn't be surprised at all by 3-9 next year."

Is it just an inferiority complex? An inherent belief that we just don't deserve any better?

Put another way - I will be surprised if we lose 9 games next year, with Taylor's emergence, more OL NIL, and hopefully a better assistant coaching staff, and yet I would support firing him now. How can someone more pessimistic than me not only support Lebby, but be his most adamant supporter on this forum?

 

[onewoof]

There's many facets of being a head coach. Recruiting, practices, media, etc. I think you may be saying he's not yet where he should be as a head coach during each actual game itself. And I think most would agree with you.

 

[dickiedawg]

It's just baffling to me that even Jeff Lebby's biggest defender "wouldn't be surprised at all by 3-9 next year."

Is it just an inferiority complex? An inherent belief that we just don't deserve any better?

Put another way - I will be surprised if we lose 9 games next year, with Taylor's emergence, more OL NIL, and hopefully a better assistant coaching staff, and yet I would support firing him now. How can someone more pessimistic than me not only support Lebby, but be his most adamant supporter on this forum?

I’m not sure I’d be “surprised” at 3-9. It’s well within the realm of possibilities- after all, we play 10 P5 teams next year.
I would fully expect a mid season firing if we were having that kind of season.

 

[tired]

This thread

 

[QuaoarsKing]

I’m not sure I’d be “surprised” at 3-9. It’s well within the realm of possibilities- after all, we play 10 P5 teams next year.
I would fully expect a mid season firing if we were having that kind of season.

It may be a difference in semantics. I'm expecting something like 5-7 or 6-6 next year. 4-8 and 7-5 are definitely on the table.

3-9 and 8-4 are possible, but I think either is unlikely enough to call them a "surprise." I agree that if we're having a 3-9 type season he is fired before November.

 

[JackShephard]

Every time things take a downswing in football, people start bringing up Croom. It needs to stop. That was rock bottom. Croom is among the worst head coaches to lead a major conference program in the modern era.

Lebby has problems, but he ain't losing to Maine. He was a few plays from an 8 win season. And, yes, that's his own fault, but he's not that far off. Year 3 is crap or get off the pot, no doubt, but even if year 3 sucks and he's fired, he's light years beyond Croom. Croom was the worst we'll ever see.

 

[85Bears]

Every time things take a downswing in football, people start bringing up Croom. It needs to stop. That was rock bottom. Croom is among the worst head coaches to lead a major conference program in the modern era.

Lebby has problems, but he ain't losing to Maine. He was a few plays from an 8 win season. And, yes, that's his own fault, but he's not that far off. Year 3 is crap or get off the pot, no doubt, but even if year 3 sucks and he's fired, he's light years beyond Croom. Croom was the worst we'll ever see.

You could also say Lebby was two plays from 3-9

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Lebby has problems, but he ain't losing to Maine.

Getting blown out, dominated, and humiliated by Toledo is worse than losing a fluky game to an FCS school.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Getting blown out, dominated, and humiliated by Toledo is worse than losing a fluky game to an FCS school.

So where do the Croom losses to UAB, Houston, and Tulane fit in the conversation?

I’d put that UAB loss right there with Lebbys Toledo loss. I witnessed that debacle in person.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

So where do the Croom losses to UAB, Houston, and Tulane fit in the conversation?

I’d put that UAB loss right there with Lebbys Toledo loss. I witnessed that debacle in person.

They're all really bad and inexcusable, but just looking at the stats, I don't think any of them are quite as bad as 2004 Maine or 2024 Toledo.

Here's something really sad -- I attended all 5 of those games

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

They're all really bad and inexcusable, but just looking at the stats, I don't think any of them are quite as bad as 2004 Maine or 2024 Toledo.

Here's something really sad -- I attended all 5 of those games

 

[OG Goat Holder]

You’ve been saving that gif for a while I bet. Bad post to waste it. Could have been funny.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

You’ve been saving that gif for a while I bet. Bad post to waste it. Could have been funny.

Go sober up.

 

[ezsoil]

everyone seems to forget how bad Mullen was in his first year... the Houston loss was Mullen and not Croom It was Mullen that didn't challenge the call of an illegal pass beyond the line of scrimmage .... and who can forget the LSU loss IST and goal at the 1 and you run two QB sneaks with a 5'9" 160 lb QB and a stupid jump pass when you had Anthony Dixon in the backfield. ...it was Mullen who couldn't keep a DC ...remember Peter Sirmon? And I personally know that Grantham was placed by Sexton and never met or talked with Mullen before he was hired. That's what comes with young coaches ...