honestly believe that the guy could be very successful here. He can give a good speech. He can do a good job of recruiting (as evidence, this years before it starts to fall apart). The national media loves him. The players seem to play hard for him. But in true MSU style, we can't have it all. Croom and MSU will never realize what we could potentially do because of one character flaw and that is his stubborness. All he has to do is turn the O over to a decent OC and let them go with it. We are in the best position we have ever been in with Byrne at the lead and new money coming in from various sources. Along with a steady rise in enrollment which will grow the fanbase which means more money. If we could just get this president thing solved and get Croom's stubborness solved, we could probably do good things. I'd love to see what he could do with recruiting if he could string together a few winning seasons. But, I'm afraid his west coast offense will nix the whole thing.
The most frustrating thing about Croom is that I
- Thread starter DirtyLopez
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honestly believe that the guy could be very successful here. He can give a good speech. He can do a good job of recruiting (as evidence, this years before it starts to fall apart). The national media loves him. The players seem to play hard for him. But in true MSU style, we can't have it all. Croom and MSU will never realize what we could potentially do because of one character flaw and that is his stubborness. All he has to do is turn the O over to a decent OC and let them go with it. We are in the best position we have ever been in with Byrne at the lead and new money coming in from various sources. Along with a steady rise in enrollment which will grow the fanbase which means more money. If we could just get this president thing solved and get Croom's stubborness solved, we could probably do good things. I'd love to see what he could do with recruiting if he could string together a few winning seasons. But, I'm afraid his west coast offense will nix the whole thing.
When we hired Croom, I thought he was a good choice. I don't think anyone could have ever realized that he would act this anal about our offense.
We really really need croom to be successful here at State. I think if he would hire Al Borges or some proven OC and turn over the offense to him it would really help.
Plus Al Borges has a reputation for developing QB's, which we have a stellar track record of doing...
Croom could still have the WCO because that is Al Borges offense
Plus Al Borges has a reputation for developing QB's, which we have a stellar track record of doing...
Croom could still have the WCO because that is Al Borges offense
His stubbornness masks his incredible insecurity. His main character flaw is pride. He refuses to admit that he is wrong. About anything. Ever. He has this warped sense of reality that he has to be right about everything. All the time. Admitting failure, in his mind, makes him weak or stupid or less than a man.
He refuses to admit that he was wrong about adapting the west coast to undereducated athletes typically produced by Mississippi public education. [So, he lashes out at the Mississippi education system, where he recruits heavily, after having been on the job for less than 3 months]. He refuses to admit that he isn't a game day coach. ["I went for it on 4th and 15 because I was following my gut"]. He refuses to admit that someone else can do a better job of installing an offense and adapting it to fit the skills of players we have. ["I'm never gon fah a coach!"] He refuses to cede control over the offense because then he might not get credit for being the black savior of MState football. ["We're not changing anything. We jus gon do what we do."]. He's going to do it his way or not at all because his legacy is on the line, and the greater good of the MState football program may, or may not, really be in the equation.
At the end of this year, we're going to find out once and for all whether Croom's pride is bigger than Byrne's balls. There is your clash, boys. Coming to a Pork Palace near you.
He refuses to admit that he was wrong about adapting the west coast to undereducated athletes typically produced by Mississippi public education. [So, he lashes out at the Mississippi education system, where he recruits heavily, after having been on the job for less than 3 months]. He refuses to admit that he isn't a game day coach. ["I went for it on 4th and 15 because I was following my gut"]. He refuses to admit that someone else can do a better job of installing an offense and adapting it to fit the skills of players we have. ["I'm never gon fah a coach!"] He refuses to cede control over the offense because then he might not get credit for being the black savior of MState football. ["We're not changing anything. We jus gon do what we do."]. He's going to do it his way or not at all because his legacy is on the line, and the greater good of the MState football program may, or may not, really be in the equation.
At the end of this year, we're going to find out once and for all whether Croom's pride is bigger than Byrne's balls. There is your clash, boys. Coming to a Pork Palace near you.
Clearly the two areas where Croom is more hands off, defense and special teams (now under Stringer), are competitive and could almost be called solid. The ONE area which he is totally involved is offense and it not only our weakest area but it is one of the weakest in the country. Until he realizes this, nothing will change. You make great points in that we are very close to having a very good ath. dept all the way around. But this is one big hurdle and the worse the offense gets the more determined he seems to spend more time with it, not good!
I honestly think if he'd worry more about being the head coach and hire a legit OC/QB and let that coach do his thing, we could keep a conistent winner on the field.
His undoing will be at the hands of his own stubborness.
His undoing will be at the hands of his own stubborness.
rebelrouseri said:
Just about everyone in the PAC-10 has run it at some point with success, not to mention San Diego State, Stanford with Bill Walsh and BYU among others. Heck, there are high schools that run it.
Auburn went 13-0 with it, and let Al Borges go mainly because they wanted to run the spread option. The other thing about Borges- he was able to somehow magically install the WCO in one offseason whereas it has taken Croom five and counting, well, I guess he never really has actually ever installed it.
How can Croom fire Woody, who he hasn't allowed free reign over the offense, and then hire Borges or anyone else, and allow him free reign?
....and I would imagine both stubbornness and pride were instilled in him in an early age. He probably had to be stubborn and prideful to grow up in the time that he did, where he did, and do the things that he did. However, it has gotten way past the point of ridiculousness with this offense.
As far as the clash goes, I seriously doubt you'll get it at this point. Croom essentially fired the shot across the bow the other night, which served the dual purpose of mouthing off/taking up for McCorvey, and telling Byrne "You'll have to fire me before we change offenses." We simply cannot afford to fire him after this year, so if that confrontation happens, Byrne will have to back down and we'll probably never hear about it.
Damn shame.
As far as the clash goes, I seriously doubt you'll get it at this point. Croom essentially fired the shot across the bow the other night, which served the dual purpose of mouthing off/taking up for McCorvey, and telling Byrne "You'll have to fire me before we change offenses." We simply cannot afford to fire him after this year, so if that confrontation happens, Byrne will have to back down and we'll probably never hear about it.
Damn shame.
TheBigEDawg said:
I would be very surprised if Croom gave up the play calling all together- it wouldn't matter if we had Steve Spurrier as our OC. In fact, I don't think it's going to happen. Byrne can tell Croom to fire Woody and to stop calling the plays, but I don't see how it can be monitored.
But don't worry- I think we're going to fire Woody at the end of the year, and Croom will probably throw a hissy fit and possibly leave. I don't see him firing Woody and if he's forced out, I could see Croom taking up for his buddy one more time. He may even threaten to "destroy Greg Byrne".
I would be MUCH more surprised if Woody was let go and Croom stayed.
I think he says a lot of things when he gets his pride up that he doesn't necessarily mean. This ******** about not game-planing for specific defenses is just that - bluster.
who could have imagined his offense would have ended up being this consistently abysmal for this long. Noone here is necessarily demanding a high octane offense running up and down the field scoring points at will, just a serviceable one to go along with a quality defense. Heck, people talk bad about Jackie's offenses but I really never realized how good we had it most of his tenure on offense back then until this mess. I will say this for Jackie, when one side of the ball or the other wasn't working, he wouldn't hesitate to make a change at coordinator. Now it may not have always been a change for the better, and there is still debate about how much latitude he gave his OC, but at least he did give it the old college try to attempt to make things better.
I think that this is a case of Croom trying to make a buddy more attractive as an OC, so that he can maybe become a HC, but the problem is it isn't working. It's totally blowing up in his face. Woody doesn't know how to run the WCO and neither does Croom. It's the blind leading the blind. He would have been a whole lot better letting Woody run whatever he knows how to run and just getting the heck out of the way. There are very few coaches that can coach one side of the ball and still function as a HC. Spurrier could for years. But most can't- Bear Bryant didn't. Croom sure as heck can't. Most coaches have the same thing happen to them that is happening to Croom because it's just too much to be the HC and coach the offense, and then Croom has to cover for his buddy on top of all that. Most coaches realize that they can't do it all, and let someone else do it for them. I don't think Croom trusts Woody all that much and so he is trying to cover. It's absolutely insane.
And we won't fire Croom. He will leave on his own, if he leaves at all. And if I was Greg Byrne, I would let EVERYONE in the media know that he left on his own accord. I would also let them know that we were going to allow him to stay if he would just simply change OC's and turn the offense over to that person, and that this was Croom's decision alone. It will only be an issue with the blowhards at ESPN like Lou Holtz and Mark May. And Byrne will- he has a functioning brain.
It might be for the best.
And we won't fire Croom. He will leave on his own, if he leaves at all. And if I was Greg Byrne, I would let EVERYONE in the media know that he left on his own accord. I would also let them know that we were going to allow him to stay if he would just simply change OC's and turn the offense over to that person, and that this was Croom's decision alone. It will only be an issue with the blowhards at ESPN like Lou Holtz and Mark May. And Byrne will- he has a functioning brain.
It might be for the best.
Shmuley said:
I'm just trying to figure out if it's bacause Borges didn't coach at Alabama or because he isn't, well you know.
....any faint glimmer of hope comes in the form of Greg Byrne.
It might come down to the contract, of which I am no expert. Does the head coach have the right to select his own coordinators? Is that in his contract? Could the university fire a coordinator against the head coach's will? It depends on who holds the cards. I know that any coach is an employee of the university, but what are Croom's contractual rights in regard to those coordinators? Financially for us, Croom would have to resign of his own accord. That also would have to happen from a media standpoint, and we'd still likely get murdered.
It might come down to the contract, of which I am no expert. Does the head coach have the right to select his own coordinators? Is that in his contract? Could the university fire a coordinator against the head coach's will? It depends on who holds the cards. I know that any coach is an employee of the university, but what are Croom's contractual rights in regard to those coordinators? Financially for us, Croom would have to resign of his own accord. That also would have to happen from a media standpoint, and we'd still likely get murdered.
if the AD couldn't fire assistant coaches. Especially if it's justified. Five offensive rankings of sub 100 are justifiable, to me.
The AD addresses coaching staff personnel only at the level of the head coach. Period. Even if the situation involved a behavioral issue (like UM's face down drunk in the subway sandwich dude), the AD goes through the head coach to address it.
Woody's future will be determined by Byrne. But Byrne will not deal directly with Woody outside of Croom's presence.
Woody's future will be determined by Byrne. But Byrne will not deal directly with Woody outside of Croom's presence.
....
GB: Coach, I want you to fire Woody and hire a new coordinator and turn over the offense to him.
SC: With all due respect, I'm not doing that. You'll have to fire me.
And that's the end of the conversation. We simply can't fire Croom at the end of 2007, both in the financial sense and in the public perception sense. We're stuck, and it's our own damn doing.
GB: Coach, I want you to fire Woody and hire a new coordinator and turn over the offense to him.
SC: With all due respect, I'm not doing that. You'll have to fire me.
And that's the end of the conversation. We simply can't fire Croom at the end of 2007, both in the financial sense and in the public perception sense. We're stuck, and it's our own damn doing.
Croom has said he'd never do that. He let Holliday and Jones go, so that's obviously BS. Conventional wisdom says he won't fire his buddy, Woody. I say that's BS too. Maybe he won't out and out fire him, but he may very well reassign him. </p>
Croom has 1.7 million reasons a year to want to succeed here. If I was under contract for that much money, I'd do everything in my power to win and see it increase to 2.5 next time around. It's time for him to be thinking about retirement too. The more he makes, the more he'll rake in when the time comes. </p>
He may be stubborn, but he's not stupid. </p>
</p>
Croom has 1.7 million reasons a year to want to succeed here. If I was under contract for that much money, I'd do everything in my power to win and see it increase to 2.5 next time around. It's time for him to be thinking about retirement too. The more he makes, the more he'll rake in when the time comes. </p>
He may be stubborn, but he's not stupid. </p>
</p>
But the worst part about all this to me is that not only do I want MSU football to succeed, but Croom is one helluva guy who I'd love to see succeed. You know this is tearing him apart, you could hear it in his voice during the call-in show Monday night. It pains him tremendously. But at the same time, it appears that he's too damn proud, stubborn, or something else that he simply can't or won't do anything about it. On one hand I want Coach Croom fired, on the other, I feel terribly bad for him. It's just so hard to get a handle on.
How to do what they are trying to do? They get somebody to help them that knows how. That's the frustrating part of all of this. He refuses to get help from someone who knows what to do. And I know he visited four schools to learn about their offenses. Apparently, they didn't teach him anything. It's just sad and discouraging to want a good man to succeed so bad and watch him implode because of pride, arrogance, or whatever.
to be an admission that the racists were right. He thinks this is a damn Selma Bridge march.
How I wish somebody with stroke, somebody from his past - like Bear Bryant - somebody the MFer would listen to, could walk in to his office, put his arm around him and say, "Sylvester, you are NOT CARRYING the torch for every black coach in the country. It's OK for you, as a black coach, to admit you made a mistake, and it's NOT going to set back black coaches 50 years. You've broken down the barrier. You made it. Now act like a coach, and quit acting like THE FIRST BLACK COACH IN THE SEC."
How I wish somebody with stroke, somebody from his past - like Bear Bryant - somebody the MFer would listen to, could walk in to his office, put his arm around him and say, "Sylvester, you are NOT CARRYING the torch for every black coach in the country. It's OK for you, as a black coach, to admit you made a mistake, and it's NOT going to set back black coaches 50 years. You've broken down the barrier. You made it. Now act like a coach, and quit acting like THE FIRST BLACK COACH IN THE SEC."
Everyone ... Everyone ... brings racial viewpoints to the table, Mr. "Everyone Look at Me, I'm an Arab for McCain." Some have the guts to bring it up in the context of legitimate discussion. Others throw around the word racist like chickenshits, like race-baiters.