Thoughts on Ray and MSU Basketball (kinda long)

Irondawg

Senior
Dec 2, 2007
2,894
553
113
Any rational person gives Ray a total pass this year. Events have transpired beyond anyone’s worst case scenario and he started with very little talent to being with. if you look at the big picture we don’t really have anybody outside of Steele and maybe Ware that would get meaningful minutes on a top half SEC team – and they wouldn’t start. But that doesn’t mean we can’t do some sort of evaluation. Next year is when we’ll really know what we have.

GOOD:

He has certainly set the discipline standard and the players appear to play hard and listen to him. The attitude change will play dividends down the road hopefully. Just watching guys play harder and listen during timeouts in refreshing. It’s also clear he’s just trying hard despite the struggles he’s had to face. At this point I’m not concerned about long term effects of his more rigid set of rules like some are.

CONCERNING:

Our offense is abysmal and while not having a point guard is a large part of it, it doesn’t totally explain why we look lost in half court sets. Some of that is playing so many freshman, many of which are lagging in all key fundamental skills. But it doesn’t totally excuse the fact that we look lost. I watched the Vandy game a little closer and we move around a lot, but rarely with a purpose or with anything that creates an open shot. We don’t get anything off pick and rolls and don’t get open jump shots from off-ball screens. Compared to good teams, just our movement and spacing is terrible. I’m concerned Ray’s offense requires one or two guards that can create off the dribble along with some guys with natural high basketball IQs. That’s going to be tough to recruit in this area.

Defensively we’ve really slipped lately, but I think some of that is the freshman hitting a physical and mental wall. However our pick and roll defense needs a lot of work and we're not blocking out well. Teams are figuring out the zone and getting good open looks. Having the man-power to go hard man to man is what he wants to do so we'll see how that play out. Ray is going to have to find a way to install a belief in this team that they can win next year.

I’m also concerned about recruiting. This year Ray had tons of PT to sell and I’m don't feel we landed much in the way of impact players. His best recruit (Ready) came on a silver platter from Flanigan. I think Daniels will be a solid bench guy, but he’s limited offensively it appears from his stat line. Ndoye looks like a major project to me and I think he’s going to be useless offensively for maybe his entire career. I’m not even sure how much of a factor he’ll be defensively but he’s so raw it’s hard to make a final judgment. How he recruits next year will make or break him I think.

EXPECTATIONS FOR NEXT YEAR

I don’t see an NIT team right now. Guard play will need to greatly improve and we’re still woefully outmanned inside. If Lewis comes back it helps, but only because the other options are worse. He’ll have a good game here and there but he is what he is at this point. We just don’t have depth there. The only reason we might push for .500 is how bad the SEC is overall.

I am hopeful that a lot of off-season work will be spent on Thomas and Sword really working on their mid-range and outside shooting. Sword’s biggest strength is his first step so he needs a good pull-up jumper. I think Thomas can be a reasonable scorer but he’s got some stuff to work on with his form as well. Getting Davis and Ready in at PG should really help with overall ball-handling. Steele needs to work on catch and shoot off screens because he’s our best shooter but will never create his own shot off the dribble. Ware also needs to work hard on positioning and finishing. Borchert needs to learn how to block-out.

We’ll get better b/c the big jump for players is between their freshman and sophomore year. Couple that with hopefully better practicing since we’ll have a full roster and hoefully good coaching on how to space the floor and move with a purpose and I think we’ll push for 14 wins with an outside chance to hit 17.
 

HailState39110

Redshirt
Sep 18, 2012
217
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0
" Ndoye looks like a major project to me and I think he’s going to be useless offensively for maybe his entire career. I’m not even sure how much of a factor he’ll be defensively but he’s so raw it’s hard to make a final judgment. How he recruits next year will make or break him I think."

Everytime someone mentions Ndoye I cant help but think of John Riek.
 

Irondawg

Senior
Dec 2, 2007
2,894
553
113
" Ndoye looks like a major project to me and I think he’s going to be useless offensively for maybe his entire career. I’m not even sure how much of a factor he’ll be defensively but he’s so raw it’s hard to make a final judgment. How he recruits next year will make or break him I think."

Everytime someone mentions Ndoye I cant help but think of John Riek.

I almost put in that I consider him a skinny Reik - I've only watched him one time in that ESPN showcase game but that was the immediate comparison i thought of. My hope is that he grew fast and needs a bit of time to put on some weight and adjust, but I'm worried he's not going to be much of a contributor.
 

skb124

Redshirt
Jul 20, 2008
1,270
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That one game is not near enough of a sample size to judge him. I agree he didn't look great in it, but they were playing the number 2 team in the nation who also had the number 1 center in the nation. Reik could not move, Ndoye can. Basically the only similarities between the two is they are tall and African.
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
15,878
5,705
113
Riek post knee injuries was crippled and useless.


Riek pre knee injuries could run well, moved laterally with ease, could hold position on D against elite recruits, and had a high ceiling.
 

DAWG61

Redshirt
Feb 26, 2008
10,111
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0
How does the leading scorer in Juco this year, Bobby Hunter, only hold offers from teams like Iona and Evansville and we sign a completely average Juco in Daniels? How does the #5 scorer in the nation Jarekious Bradley not get signed when he's 30 minutes from the Hump yet Borchert and Ndoye get offers? These are two players that would start immediately for MSU.
 

Irondawg

Senior
Dec 2, 2007
2,894
553
113
How does the leading scorer in Juco this year, Bobby Hunter, only hold offers from teams like Iona and Evansville and we sign a completely average Juco in Daniels? How does the #5 scorer in the nation Jarekious Bradley not get signed when he's 30 minutes from the Hump yet Borchert and Ndoye get offers? These are two players that would start immediately for MSU.

I know one them - can't remember which (and heck may be both) is ineligible to sign with an SEC school and probably some other conferences because of remaining eligibility issues.
 

CadaverDawg

Redshirt
Dec 5, 2011
6,409
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Goat at MSU

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
43
0
0
I am with DAWG61 we need to upgrade our players the 2 he is talking about we should try to get at least one of them. Daniels is a wasted sholly. I said in apost Applewhite will help next year .But the thing that bothers me is he had one more he could have sign last year and he did not use it.It bit him this year and I am hearing he does not seem like going after the 5 stars like Pollard.He made one phone call and one visit to him last year,if true he has a problem then.
 

esplanade91

Redshirt
Dec 9, 2010
5,656
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Interesting you say that about Ndoye. This was tweeted earlier today...

Andy Johnson ‏<s style="text-decoration: initial; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);">@</s>CoachAJohnson
Very impressed with <s style="text-decoration: initial; color: rgb(102, 181, 210);">@</s>fallou_ndoye development as a player, student, & person! Fallou has become a rebounding & shot blocking machine

Maybe he is improving and will be a good player for us one day. Never know.

Because I am a depressed fan I looked at the scout website yesterday and Gene did a write up a couple weeks ago on him, and basically Gene said that the only film they have of him is shooting around and coming off the bench and he looks terrible, but that since we signed him and moved on he's moved into a starting role for them and is one of their biggest assets.

He's 7'. I know Moultrie spoiled us but at 7' all you need to warrant PT is sit under the goal and play D and rebound. He could average 4 points a game and he could start AND make us a lot better.

I'm going to hold off on passing judgement. He won't play next year and can grow as a player even more before we throw him to the wolves.
 

Goat at MSU

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
43
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0
I went back and Google both of them Bradley is from Memphis East and started out at Kent State,got in trouble with a ex girl friend ,left and came to East Mississippi. Ray well he does not like problems ,ggod chance he has not even talked to him. Hunter is from out west ,started at DivII school then left went to JC only 5 10. We will see.
 

DAWG61

Redshirt
Feb 26, 2008
10,111
0
0
He looks like a taller Nate Robinson.

This dunk is filthy. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=54uTNMlL73c

POINTS PER GAME#
B Hunter
Santa Fe College
25.5
C Jones
Northwest Florida State College
22.7
C Forte
Howard College
22.7
M Mazyck
Frederick Community College
22.5
J Bradley
East Mississippi Community College
22.3
Complete leaders

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</tbody>
 

Hanmudog

Redshirt
Apr 30, 2006
5,853
0
0
I would like to see Ray go out and get a couple of consistent dead eye shooters that maybe some schools overlooked because of their size or speed. The three ball is a great talent equalizer and right now we have one guy that hit an outside shot.

Fred Thomas has been a terrible disappointment as a shooter. Comparisons of Thomas to Ravern were way premature at this point.
 

GOOD_DAWG2.0

Redshirt
Feb 21, 2013
808
0
0
I dont want to bust anyone's bubble here but really short guards can really limit a team. I'm fine with taking IJ Ready (if my memory serves me correctly, he's 5'9". I hope I'm wrong.) because he's a baller and he plays defense like a cat. But too many really short guards can be a problem? Want to know a big reason LSU isn't any better in basketball? Hickey and Stringer are just too short. They're great players, don't get me wrong, but height is a big deal in basketball. Hence going after Ndoye. Ray is doing well from what I can tell, but only time will tell the real story.
 
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tcdog70

Junior
Sep 24, 2012
1,372
244
63
Any rational person gives Ray a total pass this year. Events have transpired beyond anyone’s worst case scenario and he started with very little talent to being with. if you look at the big picture we don’t really have anybody outside of Steele and maybe Ware that would get meaningful minutes on a top half SEC team – and they wouldn’t start. But that doesn’t mean we can’t do some sort of evaluation. Next year is when we’ll really know what we have.

GOOD:

He has certainly set the discipline standard and the players appear to play hard and listen to him. The attitude change will play dividends down the road hopefully. Just watching guys play harder and listen during timeouts in refreshing. It’s also clear he’s just trying hard despite the struggles he’s had to face. At this point I’m not concerned about long term effects of his more rigid set of rules like some are.

CONCERNING:

Our offense is abysmal and while not having a point guard is a large part of it, it doesn’t totally explain why we look lost in half court sets. Some of that is playing so many freshman, many of which are lagging in all key fundamental skills. But it doesn’t totally excuse the fact that we look lost. I watched the Vandy game a little closer and we move around a lot, but rarely with a purpose or with anything that creates an open shot. We don’t get anything off pick and rolls and don’t get open jump shots from off-ball screens. Compared to good teams, just our movement and spacing is terrible. I’m concerned Ray’s offense requires one or two guards that can create off the dribble along with some guys with natural high basketball IQs. That’s going to be tough to recruit in this area.

Defensively we’ve really slipped lately, but I think some of that is the freshman hitting a physical and mental wall. However our pick and roll defense needs a lot of work and we're not blocking out well. Teams are figuring out the zone and getting good open looks. Having the man-power to go hard man to man is what he wants to do so we'll see how that play out. Ray is going to have to find a way to install a belief in this team that they can win next year.

I’m also concerned about recruiting. This year Ray had tons of PT to sell and I’m don't feel we landed much in the way of impact players. His best recruit (Ready) came on a silver platter from Flanigan. I think Daniels will be a solid bench guy, but he’s limited offensively it appears from his stat line. Ndoye looks like a major project to me and I think he’s going to be useless offensively for maybe his entire career. I’m not even sure how much of a factor he’ll be defensively but he’s so raw it’s hard to make a final judgment. How he recruits next year will make or break him I think.

EXPECTATIONS FOR NEXT YEAR

I don’t see an NIT team right now. Guard play will need to greatly improve and we’re still woefully outmanned inside. If Lewis comes back it helps, but only because the other options are worse. He’ll have a good game here and there but he is what he is at this point. We just don’t have depth there. The only reason we might push for .500 is how bad the SEC is overall.

I am hopeful that a lot of off-season work will be spent on Thomas and Sword really working on their mid-range and outside shooting. Sword’s biggest strength is his first step so he needs a good pull-up jumper. I think Thomas can be a reasonable scorer but he’s got some stuff to work on with his form as well. Getting Davis and Ready in at PG should really help with overall ball-handling. Steele needs to work on catch and shoot off screens because he’s our best shooter but will never create his own shot off the dribble. Ware also needs to work hard on positioning and finishing. Borchert needs to learn how to block-out.

We’ll get better b/c the big jump for players is between their freshman and sophomore year. Couple that with hopefully better practicing since we’ll have a full roster and hoefully good coaching on how to space the floor and move with a purpose and I think we’ll push for 14 wins with an outside chance to hit 17.

I'm concerned we never run a back door cut. Teams overplay us and we just throw them layups. Has RR never heard of a ballfake and a back cut? Also when was the last time this team threw an ally-opp dunk off a set play? We have 1 shooter in Jalen but never run a play to get Him am open shot. RR has a long way to Go. But what do you expect, an assistant from a average Clemson Team. Nothing to prove He might Be a headcoach.
 

DAWG61

Redshirt
Feb 26, 2008
10,111
0
0
Ready isn't ready to start. <----see what I did there. Hunter would start day 1. It gives Ray the option to RS Ready since we already have Davis as a backup. The guy is avg 25.5 points and he jumps out the gym. Can't Ray atleast evaluate him before letting mighty Evansville sign him?
 

o_fredgarvin

Redshirt
Jun 26, 2010
585
43
28
I think a lot of the offensive shortfall is what you said about hitting a mental and physical wall. These guys having nothing left in the tank. Likewise, the freshmen are so green when it comes to ball handling and posting skills. It really shows the difference between MS high school play and Div-I ball. Hopefully, they can convert all of this PT into experience for next year.
 
Dec 15, 2012
145
0
0
What makes you so certain Ready won't start for us next year? It's pretty much consensus that he is better than Bloodman and it's a toss-up between an ACL-rehabbing Davis and a 20 ppg as a senior (that Ray has publicly talked up via Twitter) Ready.

And please, stop touting all these juco guards that score in bunches. We may very well sign one or two and play them, but for right now they aren't on our radar so there is no point. And surely we can learn from the Stansbury era that throwing a bunch of individual superstars on the court does NOT make a good team. When you have 5 guys on the court at the same time who all want 20 shots a game, it just doesn't work. Exhibit A = LA Lakers 2012-2013.

I'm hoping Ray is taking the path of my Butler team** and finding parts that match well together to create a better whole. If Ready is the PG that can truly handle the ball, be patient, has a high IQ, defensively solid, and is less inept at shooting than Bloodman, then there is most definitely the possibility he is our guy of the future.
 

State66

Redshirt
Sep 24, 2012
33
0
0
The thing no one understands or refuses to listen to for whatever reason is we are no where close to the offense ray wants to run. Hes said it himself they spend the majority of practice working on defense because he believes the only way we have a shot at winning is if we keep our opponent under 50 points which is true. Right now our team has the basics down for the motion offense but thats it and people need to understand that. The reason our shooting seems so poor this year is because of fatigue which is a big factor and the fact that they really dont get to put up shots and work on there offensive game until after practice and by then they are tired and shooting without there legs under them or with sluggish fundamentals. I know the players can come in at any time and put up shots and thats on them but they dont get any coaching when they come in on there own and are basically teaching themselves technique because all the time alloted for practices is basically spent on defense. So next year expect a team you wont even be able to recognize on the court and quit talkin **** about ray because there is not a coach in this country that could do anything with this kind of attrition and lineup.
 

DAWG61

Redshirt
Feb 26, 2008
10,111
0
0
Because every freshman I've seen in Maroon sucks donkey balls and they all were higher rated than Ready. Sword was the Alabama POY and he doesn't look like he'd win the Neshoba county POY.

The reason I keep mentioning these 2 guys you even said yourself. They aren't on our radar. Why the 17 are they not? Ray can't even pick up the phone and call the guy scoring 23 points a game at EMCC whose also getting 8 boards and shooting over 42% from 3. Yea I'm sure Daniels is much better than him.**

You call Hunter and Bradley superstars? Why? Nobody is recruiting them outside of Iona and Evansville yet they've proven they can shoot and score. 2 areas the team is in desperate need of. Put Hunter and Bradley on the floor and you won't have Sword, Borchert and Flat Top putting up 18% shooting nights and have us getting drubbed by 42 points. Those 3 would be on the bench in my lineup.

Good luck having Ray follow your Butler path. Those players and coaches know how to shoot and run plays that get each other open. Ya know simple plays like set a screen for the shooter or a pick and roll.
 
Dec 15, 2012
145
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I think I disagree with almost every point of every post you've posted about basketball, at least in the last few weeks. Where do I start...

Comparing 2 different positions in Sword and Ready. Ready is ranked higher than Davis and Bloodman (the only 2 current true PGs on the roster) according to 247. Sword has played out of position half the season and averaging way more minutes/game than he should bc of injuries.

Have you considered the fact that no other teams are recruiting those guys? Wow they average 25 ppg -- where are the Mizzous, Arkys, Bamas, Tennessees, etc. (not to mention UKs, Floridas of the world)?? This comes down to a trust in our coach. I trust Ray (and apparently every other D-1 coach in America) that these guys aren't worthy of a scholarship for one reason or another. You trust your google search abilities.

When I used the word "superstars," it was more of a relative term on the JUCO level. You are touting them because of stat lines and a youtube dunk. What about character, IQ, chemistry, etc? Again, throwing a bunch of guys who jack up 20+ shots a game on the court does not solve the problem. It's more complex than that. I realize you don't understand this.

Granted, our team is poor this year. Awful. But, please don't pull out 18% shooting nights and use that as your standard when our guys are outmatched without substitutions or proper practice. I don't expect a 20 win season next year, but I truly do expect vast improvement simply due to having more bodies in practice and game situations. It's not that hard to understand.
 

Philly Dawg

All-American
Oct 6, 2012
12,079
6,655
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We can probably avoid some of the huge blow outs and win more of the close games, but we're still probably looking at 5-6 wins in conference play. Ole Miss will drop, but probably not all the way to the bottom. Its hard to see us get out of the bottom third. LSU, Arkansas, and Alabama have signed lots of four and five star guys. Those teams tended to sign higher rated classes that we did under Stansbury as well, but the difference was not nearly as pronounced.

Every stat is just awful. We just aren't competitive athletically. With the attrition and leaning so much on freshman, I just don't know if we can take anything from it. I don't know how we can make any determination whether any part of it is related to coaching, so we'll just have to wait and see.
 

GOOD_DAWG2.0

Redshirt
Feb 21, 2013
808
0
0
Because I am a depressed fan I looked at the scout website yesterday and Gene did a write up a couple weeks ago on him, and basically Gene said that the only film they have of him is shooting around and coming off the bench and he looks terrible, but that since we signed him and moved on he's moved into a starting role for them and is one of their biggest assets.

He's 7'. I know Moultrie spoiled us but at 7' all you need to warrant PT is sit under the goal and play D and rebound. He could average 4 points a game and he could start AND make us a lot better.

I'm going to hold off on passing judgement. He won't play next year and can grow as a player even more before we throw him to the wolves.
If I have any reason to have faith in Ray regarding Ndoye, it's this season. Sword, Thomas, Ware, and Borchert have all at some point (Not necessarily at the moment) played way better than I expected them to. If he can coach them up, he can coach a 6'11" starter for Findlay Prep up. The tools are there with Ndoye. You don't make the bench at Findlay Prep if the tools aren't there. It's also a big deal that Ray got his foot in the door at Findlay early because that could be a huge well of talent for us in the future.
 

Rayburn8

Redshirt
Feb 26, 2013
433
0
16
Recruiting

I don't mind what he is doing but he is doing one thing right and that is going after Malik Newman fast and early he is a soph. in High school, but he came up to play Oxford high (i live inn oxford but huge state fan) and was lights out people all over town talked about the kid. This kid is legit and goes to Callaway which is South Panola of basketball in MS, I think if we can get this kid it would be huge and according to 247 he already seems to like us early which rarely happens for us with big time recruits
 

Philly Dawg

All-American
Oct 6, 2012
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We'll need to make some progress before we can sign guys like that, but the good news is that we have some time.
 

Irondawg

Senior
Dec 2, 2007
2,894
553
113
I kind of alluded to it in my post that I hope this isn't really the offense he wants to run. Here's my problem though. You're right, he knew his only way to win would be 45-43 or something and that worked for a while and we were competitive in a lot of games. However, some teams have figured out some of our defensive sets and we've been getting torched lately. The season is now a total wash so it's time to start working on some offensive issues as well so these guys will have an overall higher baseline to start from next year.
 

Goat at MSU

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
43
0
0
Mr Stevens are you some kind of turd .DAWG61 was just pointing out ,what alot people think Ray may have a recuiting problem.He wasted one on Daniels( people were really beating down the door for him).If a kid farts fuuny he will pull it. There is a good chance he will not even talk to Bradley.He gave Bloodman a scholly but as Trey Dickerson was getting on a plane to see us ,Ray told him don't come . Yea there is reason to worry . We have been beaten 9 times by margins of 46 32 35 42 41 30 27 26 27. So get off his back or better yet don't come back.