Thoughts re: Redskins

JungRebel · May 30, 2014

This is one of those controversies we won't see the end of for a while, and this #RedSkinPride campaign on Twitter has been amusing to watch. This will, if I have to imagine, be locked at some point, but here is a question: What does the name Redskin mean or symbolize if not the thing that is used to refer to? The name refers to the team, that is what the name is used for in our language at this time—despite the fact that it has been used in other manners throughout our history. (Compare the use of "******" throughout its history). I'm not asking whether it is been a slur of a word in the past—it has. But since it is not used as a slur now by the team, how does it make sense to call it a slur? It seems as if the Redskin organization would prefer it branded as a non-slur, but the detractors are recognizing it as a slur still. At what point can a word be said to be reinterpreted if not the point when it no longer refers to what it once did? (Also compare with the name "rebels" and "Ole Miss"). My question: Why do the detractors of the name feel that it is necessarily a slur if it isn't being used as one in this context, and at what point (if ever) could it be reinterpreted to mean nothing but "the NFL franchise in Washington?"

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

Bears
Lions
Titans
Jaguars
Steelers
Etc

Nfl teams are named after cool, bad *ss things. I'd take redskins as a compliment to native Americans, not an insult

00Dawg · May 30, 2014

The best part is that it's debatable about when exactly in history it gained or had negative connotations. It's been pretty much a generic term at worst, used by the American Indians themselves on numerous occasions, including historic formal ones, and for the most part they're not the ones pushing for its removal now.

karlchilders.sixpack · May 30, 2014

If I were IRISH I'd be pissed...

Wait, I am part Irish, so I am pissed.

Much ado about nothing, somebody wants to get paid.

seshomoru · May 30, 2014

A general reference to skin color is a point of pride?

hmmmm... Sioux, Seminole... seems ok because it is tribe specific and has approval. Chief Wahoo and the Indians? Nope. The Redskins? Nope. Even the Braves don't use Knock-a-homa, and at least the Brave nickname isn't what white people used to call Native Americans.

patdog · May 30, 2014

I think it's a matter of when, not if, they will be forced to change the name. There's a lot of overreaction to teams using Indian names. But to me, this is the one that would truly be offensive if I were an Indian.

o_1984Dawg · May 30, 2014

If a race of people doesn't want their likeness to be used by a football team.... I just don't see the other side of the argument. Honestly the other side to me is almost completely people trying to rationalize their own insensitivity to put it mildly.

MagnoliaHunter · May 30, 2014

I'm part Indian, granted its a very small part and it doesn't offend me. I like what the then Choctaw Chief said when this stink came up about the Braves years ago. Back in the 90's when they were winning, some groups starting protesting. Someone from the Clarion Ledger interviewed him and asked him if it offended him. He said not now, they are winning, it offended me in the 70's and 80's when they were losing all the time.

thekimmer · May 30, 2014

It would seem to be that NAs should be honored by it....

Teams use nicknames to identify with traits they admire. Nobody uses a nickname to make fun or denigrate because in doing so they would be denigrating themselves!

Funny that nobody is up in arms about Notre Dame's fighting irish with a sterotypical leprechaun as a mascot or nebraska's cornhuskers, purdue's boilermakers, LaLa's raging cajuns, any number of cowboys, and the list goes on.

Finally, nobody looks at the mascots of indian named teams and thinks that today's native americans still exist like that anymore than patriots wear three cornered hats and knee britches.

They really need to get over it.

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

MagnoliaHunter said:
I'm part Indian, granted its a very small part and it doesn't offend me. I like what the then Choctaw Chief said when this stink came up about the Braves years ago. Back in the 90's when they were winning, some groups starting protesting. Someone from the Clarion Ledger interviewed him and asked him if it offended him. He said not now, they are winning, it offended me in the 70's and 80's when they were losing all the time.

Philip Martin?

MagnoliaHunter · May 30, 2014

msstate7 said:
Philip Martin?

Yes, I believe it was him.

natchezdawg · May 30, 2014

They should change their name to the Rednecks...

It would not offend me in the least.

#RedNeckPride

00Dawg · May 30, 2014

But they do want it used. That's the real rub in the current incarnation of the argument: the polls show a vast majority of American Indians want the mascot to stay.

mstateglfr · May 30, 2014

I am not sure how people can argue with a straight face that this is an acceptable team name.

Would these names be bad?
New York Jews - their mascot could be a traditionally dressed Hasidic Rabbi
Los Angeles Yellowfaces- their mascot could be a Japanese person wearing a kasa(the pointy hat) and kimono
Memphis Gangstas- their mascot could be a black guy in whatever gang color you wish, which jeans dropped, a grill full of metal, and a Swisher on his ear.

Do you think the Jewish, Asian, and African Americans in the country would like these depictions? Or would they perhaps find them stereotypical and offensive?
The image of Native Americans being violent bloodthirsty savages is hardly something Native Americans should take pride in.

I am surprised that the Fighting Irish are allowed, but its an Irish Catholic school, so I guess its OK for them to call themselves that?

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

So if native Americans want it changed, the redskins should change it. I don't think that's the case here though. It seems non-native Americans know what natives should be offended by even if natives aren't

Crazy Cotton · May 30, 2014

mstateglfr said:
I am not sure how people can argue with a straight face that this is an acceptable team name.

Would these names be bad?
New York Jews - their mascot could be a traditionally dressed Hasidic Rabbi

I think it would have to be a bit worse to be comarable - Maybe the New York Heimies.

I was talking to a Native American about this a while back and her objection to using Indian names in sports teams is that it perpetuates the stereotypes of Indians as fierce savages - i.e. the tomahawk chop.

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

Crazy Cotton said:
I think it would have to be a bit worse to be comarable - Maybe the New York Heimies.

I was talking to a Native American about this a while back and her objection to using Indian names in sports teams is that it perpetuates the stereotypes of Indians as fierce savages - i.e. the tomahawk chop.

79% of natives want to keep the name.

http://ap-gfkpoll.com/featured/our-latest-story-2

So who exactly has the problem with the name?

Dawg1976 · May 30, 2014

msstate7 said:
79% of natives want to keep the name.

http://ap-gfkpoll.com/featured/our-latest-story-2

So who exactly has the problem with the name?

Harry Reid. Enough said.

o_1984Dawg · May 30, 2014

which polls?

o_1984Dawg · May 30, 2014

that is not what that article says...

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

1984Dawg said:
that is not what that article says...

But a new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that nationally, “Redskins” still enjoys widespread support. Nearly four in five Americans don’t think the team should change its name, the survey found. Only 11 percent think it should be changed, while 8 percent weren’t sure and 2 percent didn’t answer.

Although 79 percent favor keeping the name, that does represent a 10 percentage point drop from the last national poll on the subject, conducted in 1992 by The Washington Post and ABC News just before the team won its most recent Super Bowl. Then, 89 percent said the name should not be changed, and 7 percent said it should.

Directly from article

o_1984Dawg · May 30, 2014

Not 79% of Native Americans...

awalkerdog · May 30, 2014

my thoughts

 I am highly insulted by the racially charged name of the Washington Redskins. One might argue that to name a professional football team after Native Americans would exalt them as fine warriors, nay, nay. we must be careful not to offend, and in the spirit of political correctness and courtesy, we must move forward. I agree with our Native American population. I think they should change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the dick heads in Congress.

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EurekaDog · May 30, 2014

Just to tweak Congress, I wish Snyder would change the name to the Maryland

Redskins.

thatsbaseball · May 30, 2014

Curious. How many of you have ever used the word or heard the word "Redskin" used in a context other than referring to the the football team ?

thekimmer · May 30, 2014

Seriously?......

Crazy Cotton said:
I think it would have to be a bit worse to be comarable - Maybe the New York Heimies.

I was talking to a Native American about this a while back and her objection to using Indian names in sports teams is that it perpetuates the stereotypes of Indians as fierce savages - i.e. the tomahawk chop.

This person actually believes that people think indians out are attacking wagon trains? That is beyond ridiculous.

msstate7 · May 30, 2014

1984Dawg said:
Not 79% of Native Americans...

You're right. My reading comprehension sucks while listening to baseball games. Thanks for pointing it out

BeardoMSU · May 30, 2014

MagnoliaHunter said:
I'm part Indian, granted its a very small part and it doesn't offend me. I like what the then Choctaw Chief said when this stink came up about the Braves years ago. Back in the 90's when they were winning, some groups starting protesting. Someone from the Clarion Ledger interviewed him and asked him if it offended him. He said not now, they are winning, it offended me in the 70's and 80's when they were losing all the time.

Do you know this to be absolutely true, or was this just something your dad told you, that his granddad told him? Not trying to completely call you out, but I've encountered that quite a bit. I deal with tribes in Mississippi on a fairly regular basis, and even though I can also say "I'm part Indian" (I think my great great great grandmother was half Indian, or that's at least how the story goes) I would never claim to BE a part of the Native American culture or know how its members feel or SHOULD feel about a word that has historic evidence as a damning racial slur. "Redskin" is equivalent to the N-word; its dehumanizing and has absolutely no place in civilized society.

00Dawg · May 30, 2014

These.

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycen...munication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf

If you want to argue things might have changed in a decade, go ahead. They will have to change a lot to go down from 91%.
This debate was settled a long time ago, and American Indians aren't the ones bringing it back up.

BeardoMSU · May 30, 2014

thatsbaseball said:
Curious. How many of you have ever used the word or heard the word "Redskin" used in a context other than referring to the the football team ?

That is because society progresses and certain words and symbols are no longer are used, but that doesn't take away the historical significance of their meaning. There are plenty of other racial slurs that have almost disappeared, but are still recognized as 'bad words', yet somehow a Native American racial slur is somehow viewed as trivial.

AHSDawg · May 30, 2014

And don't forget that the braves had the "screaming savage" when they were in the 70s and 80s. Most don't remember that it was called that...

Shamoan · May 30, 2014

things will only get worse for them. right now is the most tolerant environment for them.....in the time it took you to read this, someone, probably many, have formed the opinion that it is racist and intolerant....they will eventually have to change, same for ole miss...

now the indians really probably should change....yesterday

i dont think i would be insulted if someone had this as a mascot, but i am not most people.

i find neither offensive, but apparently, some do and thus, will most likely have to change. people are far too sensitive, but these are the times we live in.

patdog · May 30, 2014

How about 4 months ago? That's even better than yesterday.

Link

BeardoMSU · May 30, 2014

Shamoan said:
things will only get worse for them. right now is the most tolerant environment for them.....in the time it took you to read this, someone, probably many, have formed the opinion that it is racist and intolerant....they will eventually have to change, same for ole miss...

now the indians really probably should change....yesterday

i dont think i would be insulted if someone had this as a mascot, but i am not most people.

i find neither offensive, but apparently, some do and thus, will most likely have to change. people are far too sensitive, but these are the times we live in.

Caucasians? Really, man? That is an accepted descriptive word of a person's race, not a slur. You do recognize the difference, yes?

So by that virtue, I guess the word "black" is the same as the "N-Word" in terms of its usability? The same goes for Jew and the various slurs that can replace it?

BeardoMSU · May 30, 2014

Seshomoru said:
hmmmm... Sioux, Seminole... seems ok because it is tribe specific and has approval. Chief Wahoo and the Indians? Nope. The Redskins? Nope. Even the Braves don't use Knock-a-homa, and at least the Brave nickname isn't what white people used to call Native Americans.

Exactly, Sesh. Many people don't realize that the reason FSU gets a pass with their mascot name is because the Seminole Nation actually endorsed the University's use of their name. Had it been the Florida State "Injuns" or the FSU "Savages", I'd bet they wouldn't get the same position response.

Shamoan · May 30, 2014

i woulnt care...crackers works too....(it was more of a counter to the cleveland indians)...as far as i know, indians isnt a slur...yet.

o_1984Dawg · May 30, 2014

00Dawg said:
http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycen...munication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf

If you want to argue things might have changed in a decade, go ahead. They will have to change a lot to go down from 91%.
This debate was settled a long time ago, and American Indians aren't the ones bringing it back up.

Im not arguing either way, but I'd need to see more than a 10 year old poll with a questionable sample population and an indirect question to accept that Native Americans support the name.

And if they do, that's fine. Enough with people having the gall to tell them what they should be honored or offended by.

Shamoan · May 30, 2014

well, there you go. its odd that this got less publicity than the redskins (as its clearly more offensive), but based on the proximity to bristol, connecticut, i guess it makes sense? i dunno.

00Dawg · May 30, 2014

Then you're out of luck.
The poll was good enough for a long time, and now every discussion I can find on the subject seems to focus on whether it can be discarded, yet no new ones have been commissioned.
A cynic would tell you that the folks who make decisions based on polls don't want to have a new one taken because of what they'd find.

patdog · May 30, 2014

Atlanta's minor league baseball team before the Braves moved there was actually called the Atlanta Crackers.

Thoughts re: Redskins

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