To everyone that thinks LeBron is the MVP

Incognegro

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and it not being close with the rest of the league... after tonight... you still sure about that?
 

Incognegro

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I could easily make an argument that it wasn't so much him having an off game is it was OKC (especially Durant) playing great defenseon him and the Heat. People keep saying that he's the MVP (debatable, but plausible) and no one coming anywhere close to him (completely ridiculous). That's all I'm getting at.
 

dogfan96

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Was that about LeBron's defense or Durant having a bad half? Plus the MVP is about more than scoring. He scores, rebounds, creates easy shots for teammates, shoots 54% from the field, plays 4 positions on offense and guards all 5 positions on defense, depending on the situation. Last time they played Orlando he did a better job denying Dwight Howard the ball than any of their real centers.
 

Hanmudog

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In crunch time, Wade is the one that they almost always look to. LeBron is a great player but he practically disappears every time he gets a chance to really cement his status as the best in the game. I forgot he was even on the court for long stretches last night.
 

Incognegro

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Battier was who is honestly probably the best overall defender the Heat has. Despite that, Durant's overall stat sheet for the entire game was 28 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals and a block. So, yea... you're right.. it's not all about scoring which Durant clearly shows he's not all about 1 stat line.<div>
</div><div>If you're a stats man and look at the overall stats between the 2, one of them isn't completely over the other. Durant clearly leads LeBron (27.9 - 26.8) in scoring and has a higher free through percentage (.846 - .766), three point percentage (.375 - .365), blocks (1.2 - 0.8) and for the time being in the most important category... overall record (37-12 vs 35-12). LeBron leads Durant in assists (6.7 - 3.6), field goal percentage (.537 - .499), rebounds barely (8.2 - 8.1) and steals (2.0 - 1.5).</div><div>
</div><div>Even with all of those stats, the only one I'd really say LeBron just completely dominates Durant in is assists. People put too much emphasis on LeBron's field goal percentage. Hell, I would hope he'd have that high of a field goal percentage when you look at the quality of the shots he's taking. A majority of the points he gets are either dunks or off the fast break. When a majority of your shots are high percentage you better have a high fg percentage. Look at Tyson Chandler and tell me he's a better scorer than LeBron or Durant simply because he leads the league in field goal percentage.</div><div>
</div><div>Lastly, yea LeBron can play 4 offensive positions and defend 5... but damn.. Durant pretty much does the same. He's ran the point and played every other position to the 5 at one point during this season and has defended the 1 to the 4. LeBron isn't the only one that ismultifacetedas far as court versatility.</div>
 

Hump4Hoops

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Good players who are physically and mentally strong often keep their same high level of play throughout high pressure situations (Wade). Players that are whatever the opposite of "clutch" are, often get nervous and falter in high pressure situations (LeBron)

There aren't players that play at 80% of their total ability all the time just to show how great they are by playing at 100% in high pressure situations.

To sum it up: if you believe in clutch, you're saying that you believe someone can "Go out there and give 110%!" when it matters most. It's a sweet thought, and TV/movies love it. But it's silly.

Statistically, nobody suddenly plays above their level, unless you compare them to those that shrink in the spotlight.
 

saltslugs

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<span style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">To sum it up: if you believe in clutch, you're saying that you believe someone can "Go out there and give 110%!" when it matters most. It's a sweet thought, and TV/movies love it. But it's silly."</span><div>
</div><div>I'm totally convinced that players will go from 80% to 100% effort in the final minutes thus creating an illusion of clutch.</div><div>
</div><div><span style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">"Players that are whatever the opposite of "clutch" are, often get nervous and falter in high pressure situations (LeBron)"</span><br style="min-width: 0px; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "></div><div><span style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">
</span></div><div><span style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">I certainly agree with this (not sure of Lebron specifically), but again if enough lower their game the illusion of clutch could be created as these players maintain their level while others drop.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">
</span></div><div><font face="Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12px;">
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</span></font></div><div><font face="Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12px;">I think that clutch DOES exist and I think I have a pretty good explanation of why it could. In the waining minutes of a game, players' adrenaline increases. So, players are not simply getting worse or better, they are dealing with a new varaible--they are chemically different in tight situations. One who handles this change well would seem to be clutch. Those won don't handle it well will seem anti-clutch.</span></font></div>
 

Incognegro

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I was not expecting that kind of explanation. I don't know how feasible it is, but it's an interesting one to think about to say the least.
 

Hump4Hoops

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And it makes complete sense as reasoning <span style="font-style: italic;">why</span> the "clutch" phenomena could occur.

My biggest holdup still, is that no studies have shown that it <span style="font-style: italic;">does</span> exist.

If it's proven that "clutch" players stats actually go up in high stress situations as opposed to just not going down, then I can totally see adrenaline being behind it.
 

patdog

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The overall FG % was terrible and only a few players were above 40%. I was searching for Michael Jordan's FG % in those situations. I'm pretty sure I read years ago that it was about 50%, but I couldn't find it yesterday. That seems to bear out his theory that there is no such thing as a player being able to elevate his game in pressure situations, but that it can be common for players to tighten up and get worse. The players who don't get worse and simply maintain their usual level of play are the ones we consider "clutch" players.
 

Incognegro

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but let's say that in pressure situations... the average player does indeed get worse... if you have individual players that continue to play within their means and not fold under pressure.. couldn't you say that they are in fact clutch?<div>
</div><div>I may be taking a page out of shsdawg's dictionary... but the way I tend to look at what makes a player clutch are the ones that can perform when it matters most. I've never really been a proponent of the 110% ideology as it's not possible... a person will never be able to play better than what they're capable of. If they're able to do that which the average isn't capable of... is them being clutch really an illusion or are they showing why they are the ones you want to go to when things matters most?</div>
 

hulkbuster

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half because he was using too much energy on defense that he really looked flat offensively. KD3 might very well be one of the greatest scorers the NBA has ever seen. The guy is almost 6'11 and can shoot, drive, post up or work a fantastic screen game! If Lebron can't get up high enough to block his jumper I don't know many that could in leauge history. If he keeps that mean streak he had yesterday, WATCH OUT! He was going after Lebron! I've never seen him like that! That "edge" he played w/ yesterday made me a fan!
 

saltslugs

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1) The more likely a player is to take the last shot, the more closely he is defended. This tends to lower the scoring % for better players (err... clutch?). There's a reason why I was wide open in high school at the end of games. This effect occurs all game long, but at the end of games, the coach usually can draw up one specific defensive play and isolations are far more likely at the end of games.<div>2) The stats you posted only compared players with a high number of clutch shots who generally maintained their FG% when the defense increased its effort. We would need to give the ball to players like Boris Diaw and Mario Chalmers and see how they perform. The players listed may all be clutch, so comparing among them is not necessarily valuable. </div><div>3) Sample size is way too small. 50% shooting vs. 45% would be enough to indicate a clutch variable (or something happening) if given enough instances. </div><div>
</div><div>But I get your point and particularly buy-in to your last statement.</div>
 

saltslugs

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That's my opinion as well. If others around a clutch player are getting worse while the clutch player stays constant, it might actually improve the clutch players stats as his defenders may adrenaline-fueled lapses.<div>
</div><div>Not to get even more philosophical: I've always had a particular problem with the 110% argument you mentioned. If these players can step it up in the clutch, why don't these lazy effers play that way all game long! It's not clutch, it's failure to play hard the entire game. I really think this does explain a portion of what happens in the NBA regular season. With so many games, the stars will often take it a little easy during the first few quarters.</div>
 

Incognegro

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Also.. in 5 straight games... LeBron hasn't even covered his current scoring percentage at 26.8. To make this even more glaring, he's only scored 20+ points twice with tonight being the highest of the two at 24 (the other time was at 20). The other 3 nights were 14, 17 and 17 respectively.<div>
</div><div>Adding another dimension: in that same 5 game stretch, he's only had a game with less than 4 turnovers once and that was at 3 (tonight he had 6). It may be to some of you... but this isn't a good showing of a player that's supposed to be MVP caliber.</div>