To wear a mask, or not to wear a mask? I am so confused.

[Vismund]

So, with surgical or medical masks, they are pretty certain that it has some impact. But they don't know how much.

That all seems reasonable. I agree with the idea that good masks, worn (and disposed of) properly, can have some positive effect.

My problem is the idea that we want everyone to wear masks, to reduce "asymptomatic" spread, while not mandating quality, or cleanliness, or even that it is kept on at all times (we will make exceptions for eating, drinking, etc.).

To me, it all seems very arbitrary, and that people are more focused on seeing the "symbol" of the mask, than they are in being certain that the safety precautions are being carried out the right way.

The industries you listed above have been at risk regardless of mask usage and as a direct result of the virus as a whole. Until we can get it under control, it only stands to whit that those industries will continue to suffer. Conflicting information from our government (not the scientists) has been the issue.

I think your last statement is why both "sides" seem to view mask wearing as something other than an additional layer of protection. Some people see it as a restriction of rights and some are viewing it as an opportunity to shame others for not wearing masks. I would argue that having a discussion about why masks are important is helpful.

 

[UKUGA]

All of these are faaaaaaar more impacted by the shut down and social distancing rather than masks.

Going forward. The masks play a strong role.

People are canceling their amusement park vacations and frequently citing "masks" as a reason.

I wish I could share you more specifics, but I'm not at liberty to. Sorry.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

So, with surgical or medical masks, they are pretty certain that it has some impact. But they don't know how much.

That all seems reasonable. I agree with the idea that good masks, worn (and disposed of) properly, can have some positive effect.

My problem is the idea that we want everyone to wear masks, to reduce "asymptomatic" spread, while not mandating quality, or cleanliness, or even that it is kept on at all times (we will make exceptions for eating, drinking, etc.).

To me, it all seems very arbitrary, and that people are more focused on seeing the "symbol" of the mask, than they are in being certain that the safety precautions are being carried out the right way.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Obviously, it's impossible to eat or drink through a mask so we say wear it 95% of the time and you can slip it off to take in food and liquid. It's impossible to mandate "cleanliness" or whatever else, so we give recommendations but say "but put the dang mask on in public." The goal is to reduce the spread, not to have perfect effectiveness. If the reproduction rate is say 1.2 right now but everyone wearing masks even in an imperfect way reduces transmission by 25%, growth is now negative and the virus is shrinking away.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

This is issue has become more about the ability to try and control others than it is about safety.

Pretty simple, if you feel safer wearing a mask then by all means do so. What other people do will have zero effect on you and your safety because you're wearing a mask.

This is completely false, in every possible sense. I'll start with reminding you that it's completely accepted and without controversy that a mask does a better job of preventing you from spreading it than it does of preventing you from catching it. So what other people do has a GREATER effect on you than what you do.

 

[UKUGA]

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Obviously, it's impossible to eat or drink through a mask so we say wear it 95% of the time and you can slip it off to take in food and liquid. It's impossible to mandate "cleanliness" or whatever else, so we give recommendations but say "but put the dang mask on in public." The goal is to reduce the spread, not to have perfect effectiveness. If the reproduction rate is say 1.2 right now but everyone wearing masks even in an imperfect way reduces transmission by 25%, growth is now negative and the virus is shrinking away.

No.


I'm saying that "sloppy" = bad.

A dirty mask is not good.

Dirty hands are not good.

Masks that have gaps are not good.

The list goes on.

People love the symbol of the masks.

 

[UKUGA]

This is issue has become more about the ability to try and control others than it is about safety.

Pretty simple, if you feel safer wearing a mask then by all means do so. What other people do will have zero effect on you and your safety because you're wearing a mask.

Excellent post.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

No.


I'm saying that "sloppy" = bad.

A dirty mask is not good.

Dirty hands are not good.

Masks that have gaps are not good.

The list goes on.

People love the symbol of the masks.

And how would you propose solving those? Should we have mask police and hand police making sure everyone is wearing them properly, cleaning them properly, and washing their hands? I know your answer to that is no. You're just seeking more excuses not to be told what to do.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Excellent post.

It's an ignorant post - that's not an insult, that's a description meaning it's a post based on lack of knowledge or incorrect knowledge

 

[UKUGA]

It's an ignorant post - that's not an insult, that's a description meaning it's a post based on lack of knowledge or incorrect knowledge

And what topics do you have "perfect knowledge" of, oh omniscient one?

 

[Aike]

Yup. Life is one big actuarial table. It's up to the individual to judge what they are comfortable with. Me......a mask is nothing.......just a tiny inconvenience that can help a lot. Everyone knows where the bad parts of town are......where you're more likely to be a victim of a crime........and people don't mind avoiding these areas. It's a small inconvenience to someone's day.



Also, it's a matter of respect. When I pass someone at Walmart, I have no idea about their life. For all I know they could be living off one kidney, one lung, have heart issues, etc. Maybe she doesn't have many health issues, but just has a lot of anxiety about the virus. Maybe they're fairly healthy and level headed, but can expose someone in their life that is high risk. It's just a matter of respect. It's a matter of humanity. It's a matter of compassion.

Honest question: You say you have compassion for someone you pass at the store who might have anxiety about the virus. What are your thoughts about the people who have anxiety about wearing masks (for any number of reasons)?

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

And what topics do you have "perfect knowledge" of, oh omniscient one?

You're again making perfect the enemy of good. "You don't know literally every thing so my completely uninformed opinion is equally valid."

 

[Vismund]

No.


I'm saying that "sloppy" = bad.

A dirty mask is not good.

Dirty hands are not good.

Masks that have gaps are not good.

The list goes on.

People love the symbol of the masks.

Or people hear scientists and doctors say that wearing a mask helps prevent the spread of the only disease that I have ever seen shut down our existence for an extended term. You have an image of a mask in your mind that is completely contradictory to what it's actual use is. I don't like making assumptions but I can only assume this is the result of some confirmation bias on your part (hence the article you listed earlier in the thread).

Ask any doctor who's working with coronavirus patients if they would work a shift without "any" kind of face covering, that should be the conclusion to this topic.

 

[UKUGA]

And how would you propose solving those? Should we have mask police and hand police making sure everyone is wearing them properly, cleaning them properly, and washing their hands? I know your answer to that is no. You're just seeking more excuses not to be told what to do.

We have standards for all sorts of things that are deemed necessary.

It wouldn't be new or unfounded to dictate the type of masks people wear and develop one that actually serves the purpose of achieving the stated benefit.

Instead, we let people cover their face with and old t-shirt and say, "cool". "Thanks for protecting grandma".

There was a time when we required people to cover their backside when in public, but not anymore. You can be mooned while walking down the street, and no one enforces anything. Nonetheless, there are requirements for what people are supposed to be wearing in public. If you don't you can be cited for indecency (or something related).

 

[JumperJack]

To date, the coronavirus has been a more deadly disease. If we play this smart this year, it's possible it's potency can be reduced (and possibly even eradicated with a proper vaccine) whereas the flu has various strains that affect us cyclically each year. I say that to say this, "Live's aren't more important now, they are just at more risk."

Exactly. We’ve always had and always will have the flu. Why wouldn’t we just make masks permanent.

Again, if society REALLY cared about lives, mask wearing wouldn’t even be in the top 20 things that should be mandated to reduce risk to life. That’s undeniable and yet the focus is on masks. A reasonable person would question that mindset.

 

[UKUGA]

Or people hear scientists and doctors say that wearing a mask helps prevent the spread of the only disease that I have ever seen shut down our existence for an extended term. You have an image of a mask in your mind that is completely contradictory to what it's actual use is. I don't like making assumptions but I can only assume this is the result of some confirmation bias on your part (hence the article you listed earlier in the thread).

Ask any doctor who's working with coronavirus patients if they would work a shift without "any" kind of face covering, that should be the conclusion to this topic.

If we were all in a hospital setting, then you might be right.

But you are talking about functioning in everyday society.

They aren't the same. And the standards (grocery store v. hospital) have never been the same.

 

[UKUGA]

You're again making perfect the enemy of good. "You don't know literally every thing so my completely uninformed opinion is equally valid."

You called his post ignorant.

All of your posts are ignorant.

Why not make that your signature, or have a disclaimer on your posts?

"I am ignorant".

Maybe even have it stitched on your mask: "I am wearing a mask because I lack perfect knowledge."

 

[Glenn's Take]

And all of those have preventive measures that could be taken to help reduce the risk of dying as a result of interacton. Also, aside from cardiac arrest, which one of those has killed 126k people in 3 months?

Automobiles

 

[Vismund]

Exactly. We’ve always had and always will have the flu. Why wouldn’t we just make masks permanent.

Again, if society REALLY cared about lives, mask wearing wouldn’t even be in the top 20 things that should be mandated to reduce risk to life. That’s undeniable and yet the focus is on masks. A reasonable person would question that mindset.

You completely ignored what I posted about stemming COVID. You can't compare something that has been around for 100's of years and is mutating through strains compared to a completely new virus that we are just trying to slow at this point. Also, the measures that were initially put in place were deemed to overbearing, now masks are.

The slippery slope isn't from those requesting that people wear masks, its from people who think anything asked of them to be selfless is an inconvenience and not worth their time. I guarantee you that if the CDC and WHO came out and said that taking a baby aspriin rather than using face masks daily was more advantageous, then people would argue "BIG ASPIRIN IS TRYING TO INNOCULATE US ALL". You can't win against an argument like that.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

You called his post ignorant.

All of your posts are ignorant.

Why not make that your signature, or have a disclaimer on your posts?

"I am ignorant".

Maybe even have it stitched on your mask: "I am wearing a mask because I lack perfect knowledge."

It was ignorant. It relied on the 100% false idea that you don't need to worry about other people wearing masks if you wear one. That's false information.

 

[Vismund]

Automobiles

False. Maybe a third of that number in a year.

 

[mashburned]

Kansas of all places is attempting to mandate masks in public. I don't know the fine details, but KANSAS? Why?

I've gone to one place that required masks for a couple weeks, and I wore my mask and stfu because I wanted to go there and enjoy myself. They no longer require masks, and I haven't even seen another place that does require masks in my day to day life. The very thought of government making people wear masks is laughable or scary, I don't know which.

We won't even get into the validity of wearing masks....

If you're concerned about catching the flu, there are alllll sorts of things you can do to prevent yourself from catching the flu. Go do them all and reduce your chances substantially, but don't you dare tell anybody else how to proceed. That's their choice, it's their body, it's their risk. F off.

 

[UKUGA]

It was ignorant. It relied on the 100% false idea that you don't need to worry about other people wearing masks if you wear one. That's false information.

I think his point was more that he doesn't believe the masks make much difference at all.

But I will let him defend/explain his own post.

 

[BlueRaider22]

So, with surgical or medical masks, they are pretty certain that it has some impact. But they don't know how much.

That all seems reasonable. I agree with the idea that good masks, worn (and disposed of) properly, can have some positive effect.

My problem is the idea that we want everyone to wear masks, to reduce "asymptomatic" spread, while not mandating quality, or cleanliness, or even that it is kept on at all times (we will make exceptions for eating, drinking, etc.).

To me, it all seems very arbitrary, and that people are more focused on seeing the "symbol" of the mask, than they are in being certain that the safety precautions are being carried out the right way.

Honest question: You say you have compassion for someone you pass at the store who might have anxiety about the virus. What are your thoughts about the people who have anxiety about wearing masks (for any number of reasons)?

I'm in healthcare. Among those who are anxious, for every one anxious patient who doesn't want to wear a mask there are 1,000 anxious patients who are compulsive about wearing one. Bottom line is that usually the more anxious someone is the more they want to wear one.

However, we do encounter patients who are anxious about wearing them. We try to go out of our way to accommodate and understand. We usually put them in a private room where they can take it off at times. We make sure to knock and give them time to put their mask back on before we enter. And we make sure to give them some breaks as needed.

 

[Aike]

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Obviously, it's impossible to eat or drink through a mask so we say wear it 95% of the time and you can slip it off to take in food and liquid. It's impossible to mandate "cleanliness" or whatever else, so we give recommendations but say "but put the dang mask on in public." The goal is to reduce the spread, not to have perfect effectiveness. If the reproduction rate is say 1.2 right now but everyone wearing masks even in an imperfect way reduces transmission by 25%, growth is now negative and the virus is shrinking away.

Do you have some evidence that “wearing masks even in an imperfect way” in public would reduce the transmission by 25%?

As far as I’ve been able to find, the transmission rate in public from brief interaction is extremely low, and spread by non-symptomatic people is virtually non-existent.

The supporting evidence for non-symptomatic people wearing masks in public is flimsy at best. Flimsy might even be too kind. I don’t believe the evidence exists to support government mask mandates.

And yes, this is a civil liberties issues. Treating every citizen as if we are diseased biological weapons. Perpetuating a false narrative about non-symptomatic spread. Today it’s, “wear a mask! Don’t be such a baby!”

What’s next? Fines are here already. Jail time? Welfare checks if your kid is seen in public without a mask?

Some of you might be all for this. I don’t know. For those who aren’t, I hope you will at least consider the unintended consequences of ever accelerating government mandates.

The drumbeat to ask everyone to accept this much debated topic as settled science would be alarming, if it weren’t par for the course in our current climate.

 

[mashburned]

I'm in healthcare. Among those who are anxious, for every one anxious patient who doesn't want to wear a mask there are 1,000 anxious patients who are compulsive about wearing one. Bottom line is that usually the more anxious someone is the more they want to wear one.

However, we do encounter patients who are anxious about wearing them. We try to go out of our way to accommodate and understand. We usually put them in a private room where they can take it off at times. We make sure to knock and give them time to put their mask back on before we enter. And we make sure to give them some breaks as needed.

That's just weird.

 

[BlueRaider22]

You called his post ignorant.

All of your posts are ignorant.

Why not make that your signature, or have a disclaimer on your posts?

"I am ignorant".

Maybe even have it stitched on your mask: "I am wearing a mask because I lack perfect knowledge."

I claim logical ignorance for myself. There's a lot about Covid that we don't know. Studies are very widely mixed. However, what we do know is that it's highly contagious (Spread across the globe in a matter of months) and fairly deadly (killed >126,000 in the US in 3-4 months).......and this was with social distancing, wearing masks, and shutting down the economy.

Does the mask do something? I guess time will tell. But if wearing a mask for 9-12 months saves a few thousand across the US then so be it. If it doesn't save a single person all I've done is wear a mask for a yr.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

This is issue has become more about the ability to try and control others than it is about safety.

Pretty simple, if you feel safer wearing a mask then by all means do so. What other people do will have zero effect on you and your safety because you're wearing a mask.

Not true! The idea behind the mask is to reduce the risk that the wearer will transmit it to someone else. It’s far less effective in keeping the wearer safe from germs.

Ever wonder why a surgeon wears a mask? It’s to keep his germs away from the patient.

 

[Glenn's Take]

False. Maybe a third of that number in a year.

Ok.I was wrong.

 

[Aike]

Kansas of all places is attempting to mandate masks in public. I don't know the fine details, but KANSAS? Why?

I've gone to one place that required masks for a couple weeks, and I wore my mask and stfu because I wanted to go there and enjoy myself. They no longer require masks, and I haven't even seen another place that does require masks in my day to day life. The very thought of government making people wear masks is laughable or scary, I don't know which.

We won't even get into the validity of wearing masks....

If you're concerned about catching the flu, there are alllll sorts of things you can do to prevent yourself from catching the flu. Go do them all and reduce your chances substantially, but don't you dare tell anybody else how to proceed. That's their choice, it's their body, it's their risk. F off.

There are a lot of voices calling for a Federal mask mandate. People like Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi.

Wyoming, with its 14 covid deaths. Montana with its 22. On what level does a policy like this make sense?

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Do you have some evidence that “wearing masks even in an imperfect way” in public would reduce the transmission by 25%?

As far as I’ve been able to find, the transmission rate in public from brief interaction is extremely low, and spread by non-symptomatic people is virtually non-existent.

The supporting evidence for non-symptomatic people wearing masks in public is flimsy at best. Flimsy might even be too kind. I don’t believe the evidence exists to support government mask mandates.

And yes, this is a civil liberties issues. Treating every citizen as if we are diseased biological weapons. Perpetuating a false narrative about non-symptomatic spread. Today it’s, “wear a mask! Don’t be such a baby!”

What’s next? Fines are here already. Jail time? Welfare checks if your kid is seen in public without a mask?

Some of you might be all for this. I don’t know. For those who aren’t, I hope you will at least consider the unintended consequences of ever accelerating government mandates.

The drumbeat to ask everyone to accept this much debated topic as settled science would be alarming, if it weren’t par for the course in our current climate.

Imagine being this hysterical about being told to take a minor precaution for the good of society during a pandemic

 

[Aike]

Imagine being this hysterical about being told to take a minor precaution for the good of society during a pandemic

Imagine being this hysterical over a virus that kills less than 0.1% of healthy people who contract it.

 

[Vismund]

Imagine being this hysterical over a virus that kills less than 0.1% of healthy people who contract it.

Good thing we're all healthy!

 

[UKUGA]

Does the mask do something? I guess time will tell. But if wearing a mask for 9-12 months saves a few thousand across the US then so be it. If it doesn't save a single person all I've done is wear a mask for a yr.

On a very micro level, what I say to that is "fair enough."

I'm concerned on a more macro level and how the mask mandates and fear of asymptomatic spread may be damaging people's livelihoods.

 

[Vismund]

On a very micro level, what I say to that is "fair enough."

I'm concerned on a more macro level and how the mask mandates and fear of asymptomatic spread may be damaging people's livelihoods.

You keep conflating masks and coronavirus. There isn't a single industry that is incapable of operating today because of a mask policy. If people aren't going to Disney because they don't want to wear a mask, that's a choice, they will spend their money elsewhere. Doubt Disney is going under as a result.

 

[Vismund]

Wait, do you guys think a mask mandate means 24/7 mask usage when not at home, because that isn't how it works at all. As a matter of fact, our mask mandate leaves it up to the business to enforce, not our law enforcement. There won't be anyone getting arrested for not wearing masks.

 

[jwheat]

There were 2,813,503 registered deaths in 2017 according to the cdc. 2,839,205 for 2018


I wonder what the death number is at June 30th 2020 for registered deaths? One would assume since we are in a pandemic it will be much higher.

 

[UKUGA]

You keep conflating masks and coronavirus. There isn't a single industry that is incapable of operating today because of a mask policy. If people aren't going to Disney because they don't want to wear a mask, that's a choice, they will spend their money elsewhere. Doubt Disney is going under as a result.

No conflation.

I'm looking forward. The mask mandates are causing people to cancel their vacations, even as Disney has a limited re-opening with all the new guidelines in place.

Spending 12 hours in the Florida sun wearing a mask is not the same as spending 30 minutes in the grocery store, or wearing a mask for literally 1-2 minutes while being seated in a restaurant

Meanwhile, thousands of Disney employees sit at home furloughed, and thousands of Universal employees have been laid off.

 

[Vismund]

No conflation.

I'm looking forward. The mask mandates are causing people to cancel their vacations, even as Disney has a limited re-opening with all the new guidelines in place.

Spending 12 hours in the Florida sun wearing a mask is not the same as spending 30 minutes in the grocery store, or wearing a mask for literally 1-2 minutes while being seated in a restaurant

Meanwhile, thousands of Disney employees sit at home furloughed, and thousands of Universal employees have been laid off.

Once again, are those employees at home furloughed or laid off because of masks? People will be at Disney when it re-opens. They will be wearing masks or face coverings. They will be altering their plans (and Disney has done the same with cleaning policies and healthcare stations). The numbers will be lower because we are in a pandemic, not because of a face covering requirement.

 

[Aike]

Wait, do you guys think a mask mandate means 24/7 mask usage when not at home, because that isn't how it works at all. As a matter of fact, our mask mandate leaves it up to the business to enforce, not our law enforcement. There won't be anyone getting arrested for not wearing masks.

People are already being fined in parts of the country for not wearing masks. Is that ok with you?

Not exactly a leap to go from fines to misdemeanor arrests.

But where are you personally drawing the line? Are you ok with government fines for not wearing masks? If people start getting arrested, will you call that out as wrong?

I’m honestly curious. I feel like most people have a line somewhere. Maybe it shocks you that you can actually get fined in the US currently for walking down the street without a mask. I don’t know.

 

[UKUGA]

Once again, are those employees at home furloughed or laid off because of masks? People will be at Disney when it re-opens. They will be wearing masks or face coverings. They will be altering their plans (and Disney has done the same with cleaning policies and healthcare stations). The numbers will be lower because we are in a pandemic, not because of a face covering requirement.

People are canceling their vacations because of the mask requirements. That impacts future revenue, which impacts Disney and Universal's ability to retain employees.

Yes, the pandemic shutdown impacted business.

The masks are having a further negative impact. These are facts.