To wear a mask, or not to wear a mask? I am so confused.

[BlueRaider22]

On a very micro level, what I say to that is "fair enough."

I'm concerned on a more macro level and how the mask mandates and fear of asymptomatic spread may be damaging people's livelihoods.

The fear is going to be there if they wear masks or not. So far there are >128,000 deaths in the US......with isolation, with social distancing, with masks, with cleaning precautions, etc.....in 3 months. People want to "do" something. Is there going to be more panic and impact if you tell the population that they "need to do X, Y, Z to minimize the impact"..........of if you say, "hey guys this is going to wipe out >500,000 people this yr and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."??





And here's the thing......we've been lucky so far. Covid spreads quickly, but isn't uber deadly. Eventually we will understand better how to treat and prevent it.......the death rate will reduce down substantially and it will significantly reduce the fright.

The likelihood of something very deadly going around in the future is unfortunately quite high. It could be tomorrow.......it could be 300 yrs from now......but..... If/when this occurs, the population probably won't react like "there's no need to wear masks......we overreacted and did too much......I wish we waited to get more hard data before we reacted....."

 

[chroix]

Wow.....no. It's a mild inconvenience at best. Imagine being at Disney with a serious case of diarrhea in the 95 deg heat and having to wait over an hour just to get on the tram get back to the car.....all while your kids are screaming/crying. All the sudden a little mask wearing isn't too much of an issue.



Here's the thing with the science reports. For every "study" that determines that masks don't help there is one (or more) that say that it does help. But the fact remains that the virus is here right now. It is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far safer to be overly cautious and after you know more about what you are dealing with say "oooops, I'm sorry, we over prepared." Than it is the other way around.

Not sure if you’re advocating for wearing a mask or condoms or both but either way no thank you.

 

[Aike]

Once again, are those employees at home furloughed or laid off because of masks? People will be at Disney when it re-opens. They will be wearing masks or face coverings. They will be altering their plans (and Disney has done the same with cleaning policies and healthcare stations). The numbers will be lower because we are in a pandemic, not because of a face covering requirement.

If you peruse social media, you will find that lots of people cancelled Disney vacations because of mask policy. Disney will not release those details publicly.

People are still furloughed because of the hit to revenue. Mask policy is a part of that.

 

[jwheat]

People are already being fined in parts of the country for not wearing masks. Is that ok with you?

Not exactly a leap to go from fines to misdemeanor arrests.

But where are you personally drawing the line? Are you ok with government fines for not wearing masks? If people start getting arrested, will you call that out as wrong?

I’m honestly curious. I feel like most people have a line somewhere. Maybe it shocks you that you can actually get fined in the US currently for walking down the street without a mask. I don’t know.

It will shock you how many people are okay with things like this. It’s not just the liberals either which is frightening honestly.

 

[Vismund]

Let me ask another question, are you for businesses having the right to decide whether or not to enforce a policy? As far as I know, Florida doesn't have a mask policy and you see the results there. Disney is doing this at their discretion.

Maybe we should ask why they think that a mask policy is appropriate.

 

[Vismund]

Where are people being fined for not wearing a mask? I'm not saying it isn't true, just haven't heard or seen it reported anywhere.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

I remember when the below news broke. I think it was a departure from the WHO's previous position - and I think, since then, they've done another about face. If the supposed experts can't make up their minds, how is the average person supposed to know what to do? I mean, I know we've all retreated to Red Team and Blue Team corners, so the answer is obvious. But still.....

Healthy people should wear masks only if caring for coronavirus patients, WHO says

By Louis Casiano
May 28, 2020 | 11:22pm | Updated

The World Health Organization is recommending healthy people, including those who don’t exhibit COVID-19 symptoms, only wear masks when taking care of someone infected with the contagion, a sharp contrast from the advice given by American public health officials who recommend everyone wear a mask in public.

 

[Aike]

Where are people being fined for not wearing a mask? I'm not saying it isn't true, just haven't heard or seen it reported anywhere.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n...h-beach-under-new-covid-crackdown/ar-BB167MTT

 

[Vismund]

Once again, show me where anyone has been fined. I don't agree with this approach currently but that article says zilch aboht actual fines being levied.

Also appears to no longer be in place unless extended by town council.

 

[BlueRaider22]

People are already being fined in parts of the country for not wearing masks. Is that ok with you?

Not exactly a leap to go from fines to misdemeanor arrests.

But where are you personally drawing the line? Are you ok with government fines for not wearing masks? If people start getting arrested, will you call that out as wrong?

I’m honestly curious. I feel like most people have a line somewhere. Maybe it shocks you that you can actually get fined in the US currently for walking down the street without a mask. I don’t know.

That's a really good question. I AM NOT in favor of the gub-ment hitting people with punishments like this.

 

[UKUGA]

And here's the thing......we've been lucky so far. Covid spreads quickly, but isn't uber deadly. Eventually we will understand better how to treat and prevent it.......the death rate will reduce down substantially and it will significantly reduce the fright.

I don't know.

The death rate is already pretty low, and the fright is still pretty high.

There's something "special" about this virus.

 

[Vismund]

The death rate as a whole is low, thank goodness, but it's very lethal to certain sectors of our population. 126k people dying in a quarter is pretty jarring.

 

[UKUGA]

Let me ask another question, are you for businesses having the right to decide whether or not to enforce a policy? As far as I know, Florida doesn't have a mask policy and you see the results there. Disney is doing this at their discretion.

Maybe we should ask why they think that a mask policy is appropriate.

Disney may be doing this at their own discretion.

But, in order to re-open, they had to have their re-opening plan approved by the county mayor, who is very much pro-mask. (In fact, the county he oversees, where Disney resides, has a mask mandate). If the mayor denied their re-opening plan, then they stay shut.

Now, is it possible Disney didn't have to? Maybe. But if so, why would that be?

Is it because they think it's necessary, or is it because they feel compelled to because they believe they must take every precaution (even ones that may not be helpful) so they won't be sued if someone comes down with COVID-19?

I am not denying that there are medical experts promoting the wearing of masks. I would have to be oblivious.

But also, not being oblivious, I am aware that there are medical experts who give an array of advice including: i) they aren't necessary; ii) they may be harmful to the wearer; iii) they don't help, etc.

This is not "solved" science. It is still being debated.

The great Fauci himself, referred to masks as being a "symbol", of what we should be doing.

 

[UKUGA]

About 120,000 people die around the world every day.

 

[Aike]

Let me ask another question, are you for businesses having the right to decide whether or not to enforce a policy? As far as I know, Florida doesn't have a mask policy and you see the results there. Disney is doing this at their discretion.

Maybe we should ask why they think that a mask policy is appropriate.

I’m ok with businesses implementing mask policies. I happen to think it’s bad business. I’m not ok with government mandates.

I believe that mask policies are primarily being instituted for the sake of appearance. There might be some legal foundation as well. Companies want to demonstrate that they did everything in their power to keep customers and employees safe. It’s foreseeable that the legal question might spin the other way.

Disney’s story was originally spun as requiring masks per union demands over employee safety. Privately, the union has been telling members that they made no such demands. Who to believe?

As far as the results in Florida, the majority of recent cases seem to be of young people getting out and living their lives with some restrictions loosened. Hanging out in nightclubs and bars, and at parties. Places no one was going to wear a mask anyway. Deaths haven’t spiked, and hopefully that remains true.

 

[chroix]

Let me ask another question, are you for businesses having the right to decide whether or not to enforce a policy? As far as I know, Florida doesn't have a mask policy and you see the results there. Disney is doing this at their discretion.

Maybe we should ask why they think that a mask policy is appropriate.

Lawsuits

 

[Aike]

Once again, show me where anyone has been fined. I don't agree with this approach currently but that article says zilch aboht actual fines being levied.

Also appears to no longer be in place unless extended by town council.

I mean, they announced that they will fine people. I guess it’s possible they are bluffing?

And the extension appears to be an extension of emergency powers. It isn’t specifically an extension of this rule.

 

[UKUGA]

I’m ok with businesses implementing mask policies. I happen to think it’s bad business.

Which is why I wish it was left up to the businesses.

I will walk with my dollar.

Most of the businesses in my county have signs reading, "masks required by state mandate", or something to that effect.

Some, on the other hand, make sure to include that while the mandate exists, there are medical exceptions.

I appreciate the ones who are decent enough to point this out. It makes the atmosphere feel more welcoming.

 

[mashburned]

There are a lot of voices calling for a Federal mask mandate. People like Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi.

Wyoming, with its 14 covid deaths. Montana with its 22. On what level does a policy like this make sense?

It only makes sense if you're looking to scare the populace and the economy to death.

 

[jwheat]

Guy that mows my yard had it. He is 62 has COPD emphysema diabetes high blood pressure and has zero teeth in his head.

He Was scheduled to get a procedure done in bowling green and they require a negative coronavirus test to even allow you in the hospital. If not for that he would have never known he had it.

 

[Vismund]

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

 

[cole854]

The numbers will be lower because we are in a pandemic, not because of a face covering requirement.

You keep missing the point.

Yes...#'s will be lower because of the CV19, but there will also be a significant % who "now" choose not to go because of the mask requirements >>>> resulting in lower attendance.

 

[cole854]

Guy that mows my yard had it. He is 62 has COPD emphysema diabetes high blood pressure and has zero teeth in his head.

So when he keels over in your yard one day.....

 

[Aike]

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

Not sure who you’re talking too, but covid deaths per million of population are higher in the U.K., Spain, Italy, and France than they are in the US.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

I mean, they announced that they will fine people. I guess it’s possible they are bluffing?

And the extension appears to be an extension of emergency powers. It isn’t specifically an extension of this rule.

We fine people for not wearing seatbelts and for riding around on motorcycles without helmets. The gov't arrests people for smoking on airplanes.

Please stop acting like this hasn't happened before.

 

[BlueRaider22]

I don't know.

The death rate is already pretty low, and the fright is still pretty high.

There's something "special" about this virus.

Yes, the death rate is fairly low to begin with but since it has the ability to affect a large portion of the population it has the potential to kill a lot of people.......right now it's on track to kill over >500,000 in a calendar year. While it doesn't have a crazy high death rate, it's nothing to scoff at.

What I think is "special" about this pandemic is the timeframe. Never has the media become more about entertainment than in it's current form. And we now have social media which bombards the world with information either good or bad. With the history of the human race being thousands of years old, social media is like giving a toddler a permanent marker......you know they won't use it properly and it's going to leave a mess. It is going to take a long time before society in general learns how to use it.

 

[WildcatofNati]

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

Some European nations are requiring masks. Others, most notably in Scandinavia, are not, and cases are generally going down there.

 

[WildcatofNati]

We fine people for not wearing seatbelts and for riding around on motorcycles without helmets. The gov't arrests people for smoking on airplanes.

Please stop acting like this hasn't happened before.

None of these other things should have happened, with the exception of non-smoking on planes, but only if airlines adopt it as their own choice. You statist slavers will stop at nothing to micro-manage the lives of others. Given an inch, you'll take a mile every single time.

 

[Tannerdad]

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

Easy.

1. We like to work. We need to work.
2. Young people always think they’re invincible.
3. We encouraged 100s of thousands to gather and protest. Attend mass funerals. Still happening. But we ignore that segment because you are not allowed to criticize it.
4. Americans are social animals.

 

[UKUGA]

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

I'm not sure that we are really "struggling" with it now. It's spreading, yes. But to whom? And how sick are they getting? We keep reading of outbreaks at sporting complexes, with little or no reports of players being very sick, and almost none (if any) being hospitalized.

Why did we struggle? A few things:

* We let this thing get into nursing homes/assisted living facilities. In my home county, ~ 80% of the deaths have been in senior care facilities.

IIRC, there was an issue in New York with the governor demanding that nursing homes accept covid patients, and it led to deaths there. In Seattle, the initial outbreak was in a nursing home, as well.

In America, we have a healthcare system that is actually good for keeping the elderly alive, just not in very good shape. This COVID-19 ended up being the death knell for 126,000 this year. How many were over 80? 70% or more? How many of those would have lived another year? Another 2 years?

* It was likely here earlier than we knew about it. The early, very specific reports of this thing having a birth date, etc., continue to be refuted with reports from around the world of it existing in wastewater from over a year ago, etc. This means it was already spreading, before anyone had told us to even be looking for it.

* We are testing at a high rate. There is a lot of evidence of a "weaker" virus strand, but unlike most years, when a bad outbreak of the flu might still be lingering at the end of June, we are testing for this specific virus, and then when someone tests positive, we add it to the denominator.

A year ago, if I got a weakened strand of the flu in June, no one would know or care. Now, it's "COVID 19" and I am a statistic.

None of this discusses politics, but I will share with you a message I received today from a friend of mine, who is a well-known doctor who had respect for Dr. Fauci due to his work with AIDS in the 1980's (my friend primarily works on AIDS research in foreign countries):

"I hope people will realize that with the COVID-19 issue, politicians are implementing their own agenda. People need to wake up. You see how they can manipulate an educated population like the US one . . . Now think about how they (politicians) have been always doing it in less educated populations like in most developing countries . . ."


Over the last 3 months, I have seen his stance change dramatically. He went from being very "freaked out" by COVID-19, as it was entering America, to believing that we have over-compensated, and we need to be getting back to normal.

 

[chroix]

None of these other things should have happened, with the exception of non-smoking on planes, but only if airlines adopt it as their own choice. You statist slavers will stop at nothing to micro-manage the lives of others. Given an inch, you'll take a mile every single time.

What about speed limits? Guns on planes? Is there a limit to your philosophy or is it just every man for himself all of the time?

 

[sefus12]

The death rate as a whole is low, thank goodness, but it's very

Since I'm not reaching you through what I consider conventional means, let me posit this question, why are we struggling with this thing like no other first world country?

What do you consider struggling?

 

[UKUGA]

What I think is "special" about this pandemic is the timeframe. Never has the media become more about entertainment than in it's current form. And we now have social media which bombards the world with information either good or bad. With the history of the human race being thousands of years old, social media is like giving a toddler a permanent marker......you know they won't use it properly and it's going to leave a mess. It is going to take a long time before society in general learns how to use it.

Yep.

 

[Aike]

We fine people for not wearing seatbelts and for riding around on motorcycles without helmets. The gov't arrests people for smoking on airplanes.

Please stop acting like this hasn't happened before.

Never said I was in favor of government fines for not wearing a seatbelt or not wearing a helmet. In fact, government being enabled to pull you over because they think you aren’t wearing a seatbelt is a great example of overreach, imo. Being forced to cover your nose and mouth to walk the streets of your city is just the latest and most extreme example.

Restricting smoking in public places makes sense to me, in that the dangers of secondhand smoke are widely studied and verified. If you want to show me some science to the contrary, I’d be happy to take a look.

On the other hand, I see no evidence that there is substantial or even minimal risk of a non-symptomatic individual spreading coronavirus by not wearing masks in public.

 

[WildcatofNati]

What about speed limits? Guns on planes? Is there a limit to your philosophy or is it just every man for himself all of the time?

There are reasonable limits to my philosophy. As a general rule, I err on the side of freedom over statism.

 

[cole854]

We fine people for not wearing seatbelts and for riding around on motorcycles without helmets. The gov't arrests people for smoking on airplanes.

Please stop acting like this hasn't happened before.

So you are directly comparing incidents that can be "proven" to harm others as well as yourself (physically, financially, etc) to something that we have no rock solid evidence that it works at all. You are going to fine someone for not putting a piece of microfiber over their face....ok.

 

[JumperJack]

Do you have some evidence that “wearing masks even in an imperfect way” in public would reduce the transmission by 25%?

As far as I’ve been able to find, the transmission rate in public from brief interaction is extremely low, and spread by non-symptomatic people is virtually non-existent.

The supporting evidence for non-symptomatic people wearing masks in public is flimsy at best. Flimsy might even be too kind. I don’t believe the evidence exists to support government mask mandates.

And yes, this is a civil liberties issues. Treating every citizen as if we are diseased biological weapons. Perpetuating a false narrative about non-symptomatic spread. Today it’s, “wear a mask! Don’t be such a baby!”

What’s next? Fines are here already. Jail time? Welfare checks if your kid is seen in public without a mask?

Some of you might be all for this. I don’t know. For those who aren’t, I hope you will at least consider the unintended consequences of ever accelerating government mandates.

The drumbeat to ask everyone to accept this much debated topic as settled science would be alarming, if it weren’t par for the course in our current climate.

Very well said.

 

[BlueRaider22]

On the other hand, I see no evidence that there is substantial or even minimal risk of a non-symptomatic individual spreading coronavirus by not wearing masks in public.

Just to keep the conversation going. Remember that I already said that I don't want the gub-ment to punish the population for not wearing masks.



However, the counter to your statement above. What if this was a crazy deadly virus that kills 10 million people before studies come out that say that masks do a great job at slowing down and sometimes preventing the virus? Would you not wear a mask simply because the data didn't come out yet?

Also, keep in mind that masks exist for a reason. While masks might not be proven without a shadow of doubt for Covid, they have been proven over and over and over again for other airborne and mucus transmitted illnesses.

 

[Aike]

Just to keep the conversation going. Remember that I already said that I don't want the gub-ment to punish the population for not wearing masks.



However, the counter to your statement above. What if this was a crazy deadly virus that kills 10 million people before studies come out that say that masks do a great job at slowing down and sometimes preventing the virus? Would you not wear a mask simply because the data didn't come out yet?

Also, keep in mind that masks exist for a reason. While masks might not be proven without a shadow of doubt for Covid, they have been proven over and over and over again for other airborne and mucus transmitted illnesses.

While I was in forced quarantine along with most everyone else, I read every study I could get my hands on and came to the conclusion that mask wearing was largely pointless in this case. I’ve continued to read, and haven’t been dissuaded from that line of thought.

If I had a compelling reason to believe that throwing on a mask would make a significant impact for this or any disease, pollutant, etc., then I would do so.

 

[cole854]

Also, keep in mind that masks exist for a reason. While masks might not be proven without a shadow of doubt for Covid, they have been proven over and over and over again for other airborne and mucus transmitted illnesses.

Show me where a "cloth covering" has been proven to reduce the airborne and mucus transmitted disease spread. Not a medical mask...a cloth covering.