Tony LaRussa vs Johnny Cueto - What does SPS think?

[missouridawg]

For those not in the know, there's a pretty big stink around who TLR added to his all-star game roster. Dusty Baker and most of the Cincy team has made public comments that they feel TLR intentionally left Cueto off the roster over bad blood.

http://m.stltoday.com/STL/db_259737/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=zw16nw6n

What do yall think?</p>

 

[missouridawg]

For those not in the know, there's a pretty big stink around who TLR added to his all-star game roster. Dusty Baker and most of the Cincy team has made public comments that they feel TLR intentionally left Cueto off the roster over bad blood.

http://m.stltoday.com/STL/db_259737/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=zw16nw6n

What do yall think?</p>

 

[Todd4State]

shouldn't have kicked Jason LaRue in the head and ended his career. I'm not saying he shoudn't be forgiven, but there are consequences for your actions. But, an apology would have been nice. I don't remember him giving one, and google doesn't show him giving one.

I absolutely think LaRussa left him off the roster out of spite. LaRussa did stuff like that throughout his career.

Left Brandon Phillips off the team too.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

i think there are a half dozen or so comparable NL SPs left off the roster. hard for me to buy into a bias when he wasn't the only guys "snubbed" and his numbers are overwhelmingly better than SPs that made the roster or the other "snubs". lynn is the biggets question mark and he was a player vote, so la russa couldn't do anything about that. bumgarner, vogelsong, grienke, capuano, edwin jackson, zimmermann, and santana have about as good an argument as cueto, so no there's no bias there, just the nature of the beast.

and because the fans are idiots and voted uggla onto the team, that really makes it hard to take phillips. houston HAS to have a rep, and altuve is really the only moderately deserving one on the team, so he's the backup 2B. aaron hill is also having a better season than phillips, and he's only in the last man in vote.

so yeah, basically, look around the damn league and compare numbers to those on the team and those other "snubs", then factor in dumb fan voting + mandatory all-star reps and the managers really don't have a lot of room to add guys.

 

[missouridawg]

Cueto said something alonf "I guess I dated one of his girlfriends or something" this week after the snub ("his" is in reference to TLR).

I think Cueto has an argument to be on the team, but so does about 10 other pitchers.

Cry me a river.

 

[Robot-Chicken]

I think Cueto should be on the team. He's the best pitcher on the division leader. LaRussa left him off as Todd said out of spite. The rule he used as the reason why he left him off the team was clearly not used by him correctly.

I understand BP being left off due to fan votes, that's just the way it happens sometimes. I think that's why he really didnt' comment on it when asked.

I don't feel particuarly bad forCueto after what he did to LaRue. I've not been a big fan of his since then.</p>

 

[DAWG61]

Tony LaRussa won the 17ing World Series last year. He can pick whoever the 17 he likes. I wish he had picked Mark McWire, Will Clark and Deion Sanders.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

This is the guy that ran Scott Rolen along with many other players out of town. He holds a grudge like no other coach I can think of.<div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div><div>
</div><div>My other thoughts include good I'm happy. Cueto can go %*%@ himself for what he did to LaRue. </div>

 

[PBRME]

17 those little crying bitches. Win the World Series and pick who you want. If he was having such a good year then why was he subbed by the fans too?

 

[missouridawg]

ran Rolen out of town.

From what I remember, in the NLCS against the Mets that year, Rolen showed up to the park and was on the bench. Rolen didn't like it and let LaRussa know if a very vocal manner. Rolen was playing ****** because he had a nagging injuryand Scott Spiezio was hot and got the start.

Rolen signed elsewhere in the offseason.

This is all from memory, so I could be wrong... but I think Rolen was butt-hurt moreso than LaRussa holding a grudge.

 

[jakldawg]

then Phillips would be in over Altuve from the Astros.<div>And regardless of who's on the team, LaRussa is a gigantic *******, so none of this is surprising.</div>

 

[Bob Loblaw]

the Cards definitely traded Rolen for Glaus. Rolen was in TLR's permanent doghouse, and there was no way he was getting out. More recently the Cardinals shipped out Colby Rasmus because TLR hated him. The guy has a history of this. But like I said this grudge is more than valid. Cueto fights like a woman and ended a guy's career. I'd be fine if he had a 0.00 ERA, and TLR didn't pick him.<div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div>

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

altuve is having a damn good year. his avg, slugging, obp, and ops are all higher than phillips. i was pretty surprised he led phillips in slugging and ops. either way, aaron hill is having a better year than both of them.

 

[Fresno Bob]

Do they now?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

It started well before the NLCS. That just made it worse.

 

[lowcountrydawg.sixpack]

Mark muhquire was amazing

 

[Todd4State]

that Colby's Dad was telling him to do things differently than what McGwire and Aldrete were telling him to do. Rasmus's Dad was a pain in the *** to say the least. Unbelievable that something like that would even go on in the Major Leagues.

I still can't believe the Blue Jays gave up what they did to get him.

But yeah- piss off Tony and he sends you to Canada.

What I have heard is that most players like playing for him. However, if he doesn't like you, you are going to be miserable and it can get ugly.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

that Colby's Dad was telling him to do things differently than what McGwire and Aldrete were telling him to do. Rasmus's Dad was a pain in the *** to say the least. Unbelievable that something like that would even go on in the Major Leagues.

I still can't believe the Blue Jays gave up what they did to get him.

But yeah- piss off Tony and he sends you to Canada.

What I have heard is that most players like playing for him. However, if he doesn't like you, you are going to be miserable and it can get ugly.

What is it that you can't believe about what the Blue Jays "gave up". Was it the three journeyman middle relievers, the best of which they got back? Or was it the 37 year old set up man that was a free agent to be? Or was it the 30's something CF who couldn't throw it up and hit it?

Leave it to you to have a hard time understanding why a team that was considered a seller at the time would shed a bunch of unneeded capacity for a CF who is on pace to put up 30-100 numbers this season.

While Rasmus was never going to be a fit in St Louis and it was wise for them to move him, if the Braves had not folded like a cheap suit, the Blue Jays would have been the clear winners in this deal.

Because if the Cards hadn't slipped through the backdoor into the playoffs, they would have nothing to show for that deal other than a LH BP thrower, a .260 hitting college 3B, and a HS catcher.

The WS title provides Cardinal fans with a valid argument that the deal was a worth it. But it was dangerously close to being one sided.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

Do they now?

Didn't see any pitchers on the ballot I filled out at the Cardinal game a few weeks back.

 

[Todd4State]

to conveniently leave out the first round draft picks that the Cardinals got by letting Dotel and Jackson go. So, basically, the Cardinals traded Colby Rasmus and a bunch of crap for a quality starter in Edwin Jackson who pitched well for them fill the void for Adam Wainwright down the stretch, Dotel and Scrabble who again pitched well for them in the playoffs. They end up with a World Series championship and two first round picks out of the top 60 in the draft.

Basically for a guy that is putting up decent stats and striking out almost three times more than he walks and is hitting .259.

It's silly to say "if the Cardinals don't backdoor into the playoffs"- because the fact of the matter is they did, and without the guys that they picked up in that trade- they don't go to the playoffs. And because of the trade, they did. They keep Rasmus, and they don't. The Cardinals played better than their opponents down the stretch.


What what you have done? Trade for John Smoltz and hope for the best? Fire Mark McGwire because he used steroids?

Probably so because you are a dumbass. My worst trade scenarios are better than your best trade scenarios.

Hell, using your logic- I could say that the Cubs would have won the Lou Brock trade if he didn't become a Hall of Famer. Or that the Red Sox were smart to let Babe Ruth go IF he flopped with the Yankees.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Basically for a guy that is putting up decent stats and striking out almost three times more than he walks and is hitting .259.

A 4-5 WAR CFer with three years of team control is more valuable than two decent rentals, two supplemental picks, and a reliever. <div>
</div><div>I understand trading Rasmus, or Jay, but I don't think that was the best package we could've gotten for a player with loads of talent. Our bargaining strength was weakened by the very public information about TLR and Rasmus's relationship. On top of that it is a manager's job to try and get it to work even with difficult situations. TLR did the opposite of that. And he had a pattern of doing the same thing. Rolen was just the most visible example of TLR's bs.</div>

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

to conveniently leave out the first round draft picks that the Cardinals got by letting Dotel and Jackson go.

Actually, I didn't leave that out. <div>
</div><div>Hence the comment about the .260 hitting college 3B they got with the Dotel pick and the HS catcher they got with the Jackson pick.</div><div>
</div><div>You may have the worst reading comprehension of anyone on this board. And that's saying something.</div><div>
</div><div>Stick to college baseball. It's pretty clear you are clueless when it comes to the Big Leagues.</div>

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

Basically for a guy that is putting up decent stats and striking out almost three times more than he walks and is hitting .259.

A 4-5 WAR CFer with three years of team control is more valuable than two decent rentals, two supplemental picks, and a reliever. <div>
</div><div>I understand trading Rasmus, or Jay, but I don't think that was the best package we could've gotten for a player with loads of talent. Our bargaining strength was weakened by the very public information about TLR and Rasmus's relationship. On top of that it is a manager's job to try and get it to work even with difficult situations. TLR did the opposite of that. And he had a pattern of doing the same thing. Rolen was just the most visible example of TLR's bs.</div>

Excellant post. Rasmus had value and LaRussa diminished it by backing his GM into the corner. It worked out, because they slipped into the playoffs and had a great run. But if they don't have that run and you have to look at that trade from a long term POV, then the Blue Jays were the clear winners.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

that Colby's Dad was telling him to do things differently than what McGwire and Aldrete were telling him to do. Rasmus's Dad was a pain in the *** to say the least. Unbelievable that something like that would even go on in the Major Leagues.

I still can't believe the Blue Jays gave up what they did to get him.

the cards and rasmus might have been an unsalvageable relationship, but the blue jays got him for a quarter on the dollar. a former top 5 MLB prospect with 1 good season under his belt in 2010, and at the time of the deal he was only 24? that's a great gamble to take for the blue jays considering they gave up next to nothing for him. and this year, he is having an breakout.
<div>
</div><div>like loblaw said, tlr screwed the cards by making a bad situation worse, thus putting the cards in a weak position when negotiating a deal.</div>

 

[Todd4State]

that doesn't know the difference between the shoulder and elbow. Yeah- OK.

I'll put my baseball knowledge up against yours any and everyday, any league. Especially since I've blown your *** apart too more times to count on baseball knowledge. But yet- you keep coming back for more.

 

[Todd4State]

And no, I would rather have the deal that got the Cardinals the World Series championship over a guy with 4-5 WAR over three years that probably would have not done much other than strike out a lot.

Colby Rasmus's WAR using baseball-reference.com is only 2.4 Not 4-5. Hell, Josh Hamilton's WAR is 3.1 using the same website.

I mention using the same site because WAR doesn't have one formula that is used all the time every single time.

So, by trading Rasmus, the Cardinals got a better player on the field more, In both Jon Jay and Allen Craig, and they strengthened their bullpen, and they got draft picks. Oh, yeah- and they got rid of a team cancer and his Dad. By the way, Jay's WAR was 2.6 and was one full game better than Rasmus's at the time, and Craig's WAR is almost as good as Rasmus even though he has a ton of injuries this year (2.2 for Craig and 2.4 for Rasmus).

I don't see how you can say that the Cardinals could have gotten a better package unless someone wanted to dump Matt Kemp or Josh Hamilton or something else crazy. Who else could have given up what the Blue Jays did?

About LaRussa- if you manage that long, there are going to be problems with players from time to time. Most of the players liked him.

So, my question is, would you rather have control of Colby Rasmus for three years, or would you rather have Jon Jay and a World Series Championship and a couple of prospects?

 

[Todd4State]

The only way the Blue Jays win the deal is if Rasmus becomes a super star. Now, it could happen- but he is going to have to cut down on his strikeouts significantly. And I don't think he will. I also don't think he will take Toronto to a World Championship either.

He's JD Drew 2.0

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

The only way the Blue Jays win the deal is if Rasmus becomes a super star. Now, it could happen- but he is going to have to cut down on his strikeouts significantly. And I don't think he will. I also don't think he will take Toronto to a World Championship either.

He's JD Drew 2.0

I don't know what's worse, your reading comprehension or your knowledge of Big League baseball.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

that doesn't know the difference between the shoulder and elbow. Yeah- OK.

I'll put my baseball knowledge up against yours any and everyday, any league. Especially since I've blown your *** apart too more times to count on baseball knowledge. But yet- you keep coming back for more.

<div>You are Peachbowl 2.0.</div><div>
</div><div>Not smart enough to give up while you are behind.</div>

 

[Bob Loblaw]

The question has to be would you rather have control of Ramus for 3 years or would you rather have the package we received from the Blue Jays? On top of that you're setting up a false dilemma.<div></div><div>Rasmus's b-ref WAR is 2.4 halfway through the season him. Double that for 162 games. I was trying to account for regression when saying 4-5. WAR is just a collection of offense, defense, baserunning, and positional adjustments, i.e. a .800 OPS player in CF is more valuable than a .800 OPS at 1B. A 4-5 WAR CF with 3 years of team control is worth more than the package we got back from the Blue Jays.</div><div>
</div><div>This all distracts from, what in my mind, is the main question. Which is always what happens when this trade gets brought up amongst Cardinals fans. Could TLR have handled the situation better? Could TLR have handled the Rolen situation better? I think TLR has a major flaw when it comes to dealing with players he doesn't like. A manager's job is making the parts work.</div>

 

[Todd4State]

Your knowledge on baseball.

 

[Todd4State]

I'm also smarter than you and know more about sports than you, and constantly embarrass you.


That's your best post yet. Keep it up.

 

[Todd4State]

See the John Smoltz trade between the Braves and Tigers, Jeff Bagwell trade between the Red Sox and Astros, and etc.

What false dilemma am I setting up? Did the Cardinals not win the World Series in large part because they improved their bullpen with players that they got from Toronto?

World Series aside-who would you rather have control of for three years- Colby Rasmus or Allen Craig? Colby Rasmus or Jon Jay? Personally, I would rather have what the Cardinals got especially knowing that they are going to have to move Rasmus at some point soon to make room for Oscar Taveras. Personally, I like Craig and Jay better than I like Rasmus because they don't strike out as much and Craig almost has as many home runs as Rasmus at this point despite being hurt- with a much higher average and more versatility.

WAR doesn't work like that- where it doubles over the course of a season. Because it compares you to everyone across the board as well as the other factors you listed. If he is a 2.4 WAR player now, he will probably be a 2.4 WAR player at the end of the year.

As far as Tony LaRussa- I think we all have flaws handling people we don't like. You are right- it is the manager's job to make sure the parts work, but it's also NOT his job to make sure that everyone is happy. If Rasmus and his Dad were causing problems in the clubhouse- and I personally think a player going against the hitting coach is disrespectful, and can cause problems within- I think it's best to get rid of that problem. I think the reason LaRussa and the Cardinals went public with it was so that the fans would understand why he was being moved.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Bernie is usually pretty spot on with his observations.


Matt Holliday came out of his "slump" on April 19. Since then he ranks 6th among all NL players in batting average (.343), third in onbase percentage (.432), eighth in slugging (.567), 6th in OPS (.998), sixth in RBIs (49). He's also eighth in go-ahead RBIs over that time. Holliday should probably be on the NL All-Star team, but if you listen to the kooky stuff coming out of Cincinnati, Holliday was snubbed by Don Tony as part of La Russa's vast, sinister anti-Reds conspiracy.

Yes, that makes sense. Let's see: La Russa supposedly hates the Reds, so obviously the best way to show how much he hates the Reds is pick Cincinnati outfielder Jay Bruce over Holliday. And Holliday is one of La Russa's former, and favorite, players. Absolutely. Hate the Reds, so choose a Red over a Cardinal. Choose a Red over one of your guys Perfectly logical. Yes. The sharp minds in Cincinnati, as well as the lunatic fringe here in STL .... gotta give them credit. They have finally exposed La Russa for the scoundrel that he is.

* Bonus Byte: Milwaukee pitcher Zack Greinke, who certainly was worthy of a spot on the NL All-Star team, took the high road when quizzed about his exclusion. Unlike some of the clowns that put on a show over alleged All-Star snubs/conspiracies/plots, Greinke showed class and maturity. He understood the surplus of excellent NL starting pitchers for the few remaining roster spots and expressed empathy for La Russa's difficult assignment.

"I thought depending on how many relievers made it, I would have a chance," Greinke told reporters. "There's so many good starters this year -- there's half a dozen that have done just as well as the guys that made it, so I can't really complain. The starters this year, it's got to be the best in the last 20 years, I don't know. Maybe the last 30 years. It's pretty amazing. You can't please everyone."

As for La Russa, Greinke said: "I wanted to make the team, but it's not an easy job picking. Cueto has pitched great. There's other guys who have pitched great, too. You can't make everybody happy. No matter who (La Russa) picks, there's going to be good arguments."

Respect to Greinke.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

You can say 10 times out of 10 times that Rasmus/Jackson/Dotel are the player that that they are. They are the parts of the equation that are going to stay the same no matter what. I would venture a guess that the if you run the permutations on last season the Cards don't win the World Series 10 out of 10 times. The Cardinals got a bit lucky last year. Going forward you can't continue to make uneven trades just to push for the postseason. If Cruz had caught that Freese triple, does the trade suddenly become a bad trade? I don't think the package we got back in return for Rasmus was enough, but I guess you do. We're at an impass I guess.<div>
</div><div>I said false dilemma because the options aren't World Series or Rasmus. If the club (TLR) had handled the situation better, we might have gotten a better package in return for Rasmus. We might have gotten unlucky somewhere along the amazing run last year and not won the WS.</div><div>
</div><div>I'm pretty sure you're wrong about WAR. WAR is the value stats, wOBA for offense or FIP for pitching, UZR for defense, and whatever the baserunning stat is, times the number of appearances. A 3.00 ERA pitcher that pitches 250 innings is going to be worth more in WAR than a 2.00 ERA pitcher that pitches 100 innings. Same would go for whatever offense stats that you want to put in.</div><div>
</div><div>wrt to your last paragraph I think it is the manager's job to make the players happy, but I also think you're right that Colby's dad is/was a cancer.</div><div>
</div><div>edit: I'm not sure what that other guy has against you, but I have no doubt you know your baseball. We're just rehashing an argument that has been argued 1 million times in STL since the trade.</div><div>
</div><div>And Bernie is 100% otm with his article. Greinke has way more class than Dusty or Cueto. I have no respect for either of the latter two.</div><div>
</div>

 

[Todd4State]

is really I value not having a guy and his Dad being a cancer and a problem over control of a guy with talent for three years. Having guys that are problems can absolutely destroy teams. And a lot of fans in general may not know or understand the extent of problems caused by players sometimes. I don't think Rasmus will get much better because I have seen players with his talent and his attitude and that's typically what happens- they don't get much better. He is still striking out at a horrible rate, and it's killing his average.

I think a lot of times if fans (me included) were really in the know as far as what's going on in the clubhouse, moves like this would make more sense a lot of times.

The purpose of the trade from the Cardinals standpoint was to get to the postseason. Winning the World Series was a very nice side benefit. But if the Cardinals had not- I would honestly say it was a bad trade because they didn't accomplish what they wanted from the trade. Hindsight certainly works both ways- you could say that the Tigers and Red Sox had no clue that Smoltz and Bagwell would become great players, but it's what happened. And fair or not, that's how history judges these things.

Point taken on WAR.

I still honestly don't think they could have gotten a better deal. Believe me- every GM in baseball knew about Rasmus and his Dad and everyone knew that the Cardinals were trying to trade him. And they didn't have to read the Post-Dispatch to find that out. I think the draft picks were a big thing as far as this deal and how they turn out down the road. Usually when a team is trying to dump a player, they get very little back. See Carlos Lee trade. The Cardinals got a quality starter and two good relief pitchers and then parlayed that into two draft picks. Pretty much for Colby Rasmus.