Trib's Mike Helfgot.....

[pjjp]

with some interesting editorial comments on the ESCC / CCL.

No. 19 Marist (2-1) vs. Marian Central (2-1): So here's my favorite example of pigheadedness, the East Suburban Catholic Conference. Not the whole league, mind you. The coaches of these two teams, Marist's Pat Dunne and Marian's Mike Maloney, are really bright guys and very good football coaches. Some of the old guard in this league … you get the point. Before the Catholic League expanded to four divisions, forcing smaller schools into crossover games against the big bad Catholic Blue, I've been told that the CCL would have been open to merging with the ESCC. I've also been told by multiple excellent sources that some bad blood over old grudges prevented that from happening. Enrollment among ESCC schools varies from 1,039 to 2,689, and while most of the teams are competitive, not all nine can keep up. I just don't see the downside to merging and getting those who can't match up in divisions with similar programs. From a private school perspective, there is a bigger fish to fry — the public schools that may try to force the IHSA to hold separate public and private playoffs. If the enemy of your enemy is your friend, it's time to let go of old grudges and band together. Marist 31, Marian Central 14.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ep-fb-helfgot-week-4-blog-20160916-story.html

 

[Cross Bones]

lol he neglected to preview the games... Mike's funny. Hate his rankings though (right now)

 

[MC63]

with some interesting editorial comments on the ESCC / CCL.

No. 19 Marist (2-1) vs. Marian Central (2-1): So here's my favorite example of pigheadedness, the East Suburban Catholic Conference. Not the whole league, mind you. The coaches of these two teams, Marist's Pat Dunne and Marian's Mike Maloney, are really bright guys and very good football coaches. Some of the old guard in this league … you get the point. Before the Catholic League expanded to four divisions, forcing smaller schools into crossover games against the big bad Catholic Blue, I've been told that the CCL would have been open to merging with the ESCC. I've also been told by multiple excellent sources that some bad blood over old grudges prevented that from happening. Enrollment among ESCC schools varies from 1,039 to 2,689, and while most of the teams are competitive, not all nine can keep up. I just don't see the downside to merging and getting those who can't match up in divisions with similar programs. From a private school perspective, there is a bigger fish to fry — the public schools that may try to force the IHSA to hold separate public and private playoffs. If the enemy of your enemy is your friend, it's time to let go of old grudges and band together. Marist 31, Marian Central 14.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ep-fb-helfgot-week-4-blog-20160916-story.html

Helfgot makes a lot of sense regarding a merger . However, as I understand it, the ESCC coaches didn't like going into "urban" neighborhoods. What I think they really didn't like was getting their butts whipped so frequently.

 

[NNFAN]

Helfgot makes a lot of sense regarding a merger . However, as I understand it, the ESCC coaches didn't like going into "urban" neighborhoods. What I think they really didn't like was getting their butts whipped so frequently.

Yeah... Chicago St. Pats was afraid to travel into Chicago and get whipped by St. Rita, Chicago Marist was afraid to travel into urban Chicago to play Brother Rice and Simeon, Marian (from majority black Chicago Heights) was afraid to play Chicago Urban Prep/Englewood, JCA from the affluent city of Joliet has never scheduled any games with Mt. Carmel at Gately stadium, and Niles ND wanted to avoid urban areas so they traveled to Harvey to play Thornton. Didn't Marist play at Mt.Carmel last year (losing by 7)? Didn't JCA (ESCC) blow out Providence (CCL Blue) last year? Hmm

 

[MC63]

Yeah... Chicago St. Pats was afraid to travel into Chicago and get whipped by St. Rita, Chicago Marist was afraid to travel into urban Chicago to play Brother Rice and Simeon, Marian (from majority black Chicago Heights) was afraid to play Chicago Urban Prep/Englewood, JCA from the affluent city of Joliet has never scheduled any games with Mt. Carmel at Gately stadium, and Niles ND wanted to avoid urban areas so they traveled to Harvey to play Thornton. Didn't Marist play at Mt.Carmel last year (losing by 7)? Didn't JCA (ESCC) blow out Providence (CCL Blue) last year? Hmm

Boy, a couple parts of you really got stuck in a wringer.

Since the brief union of the two leagues, JCA has not played at Gately. Providence and BR are hardly "urban." I don't know for sure, but I would bet large sums that the Urban Prep, Simeon and Thornton games you mentioned were playoffs. MC hosted Marist at Soldier Field.

I don't recall any ESCC teams electing to play "urban' games on the road during the season other than the St Patrick game you mentioned. I do know that St Patrick beat St Rita at Soldier Field this year. Perhaps they had to travel to 77th Street in order to get the Soldier Field assignment. I don't know. Perhaps St Rita will travel up to St Patrick next season. Again, I don't know. But consider that St Patrick is a Chicago school and their home field (Hanson Stadium) is not exactly the Gold Coast.

I do know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick.

 

[NNFAN]

Check this years and last year's regular season schedule. The 'urban' argument doesn't hold much water. I'll let the ESCC people take it from here. Just don't like the chest thumping, that is all.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I do know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick.

Where did Carmel and Phillips play in 2014?

 

[ignazio]

Boy, a couple parts of you really got stuck in a wringer.

Since the brief union of the two leagues, JCA has not played at Gately. Providence and BR are hardly "urban." I don't know for sure, but I would bet large sums that the Urban Prep, Simeon and Thornton games you mentioned were playoffs. MC hosted Marist at Soldier Field.

I don't recall any ESCC teams electing to play "urban' games on the road during the season other than the St Patrick game you mentioned. I do know that St Patrick beat St Rita at Soldier Field this year. Perhaps they had to travel to 77th Street in order to get the Soldier Field assignment. I don't know. Perhaps St Rita will travel up to St Patrick next season. Again, I don't know. But consider that St Patrick is a Chicago school and their home field (Hanson Stadium) is not exactly the Gold Coast.

I do know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick.

FIRST!

Can I take that bet?

Also, CoM played a home-and-home with Phillips in 2014 and 2015.

 

[MC63]

FIRST!

Can I take that bet?

Also, CoM played a home-and-home with Phillips in 2014 and 2015.

Ignazio -

OK - I stand corrected. Carmel/ Mundelein did travel to Phillips a few years back. That's one game in about 12 years or so where an ESCC school played a regular season road game in a Chicago urban neighborhood.

BTW, Ignazio, which school do you support? Is it St. Ignatius, Loyola Academy, or somebody else.

 

[eireog]

I love the idea of the two leagues reuniting. I liked it when they tried it the last time. I'd really like to know the reason why it broke up. I'm not sure I believe the theory of traveling into urban areas. I've heard there were Catholic leaguers that didn't like the newcomers. I've heard the newcomers didn't like the feeling of being second class citizens in the league. I'm not sure I believe those scenarios either. It makes sense in so many ways . I hope it happens.

 

[MC63]

I love the idea of the two leagues reuniting. I liked it when they tried it the last time. I'd really like to know the reason why it broke up. I'm not sure I believe the theory of traveling into urban areas. I've heard their were Catholic leaguers that didn't like the newcomers. I've heard the newcomers didn't like the feeling of being second class citizens in the league. I'm not sure I believe those scenarios either. It makes sense in so many ways . I hope it happens.

Eidreog - same question to you: which school do you support?

 

[eireog]

NDCP

 

[CCHS-Fan]

FIRST!

Can I take that bet?

"Also, CoM played a home-and-home with Phillips in 2014 and 2015.

"I know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick."

Wrong...

You're forgetting CCHS had a home-and-home with Morgan Park HS in '06/'07. We opened on the road at Gately in 2007.
Split the series when MP was on an upswing.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Yeah... Chicago St. Pats was afraid to travel into Chicago and get whipped by St. Rita, Chicago Marist was afraid to travel into urban Chicago to play Brother Rice and Simeon, Marian (from majority black Chicago Heights) was afraid to play Chicago Urban Prep/Englewood, JCA from the affluent city of Joliet has never scheduled any games with Mt. Carmel at Gately stadium, and Niles ND wanted to avoid urban areas so they traveled to Harvey to play Thornton. Didn't Marist play at Mt.Carmel last year (losing by 7)? Didn't JCA (ESCC) blow out Providence (CCL Blue) last year? Hmm

boy those kids from sesame st joliet were scared as hell to travel to the mean streets surrounding loyola academy.

 

[mc140]

All about wins and losses. Marist in particular was getting railroaded in the CMC.

 

[pjjp]

All about wins and losses. Marist in particular was getting railroaded in the CMC.

Now this seems like a more realistic possibility. The assertion that ESCC schools did not like going into "urban" areas sounds like an urban myth to me. Not sure why the ESCC would refuse to work with the CCL to come up with a mutually beneficial arrangement, if for no other reason to minimize the ridiculous travel involved in the ESCC. Helfgot suggests some of the decision makers fall into the "dinosaur" category. I suspect this may be true. Some the coaches/AD's have been around a long time and are probably set in their ways.....to the detriment of the conference.

 

[Penlight]

This comes up every few years.
It always appears to be the CCL approaching the ESCC.
Maybe the CCL should petition to join the ESCC, but their old guard would never go that route.
;-)

 

[MC63]

"I know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick."

Wrong...

You're forgetting CCHS had a home-and-home with Morgan Park HS in '06/'07. We opened on the road at Gately in 2007.
Split the series when MP was on an upswing.

OOOPS!

 

[biglatte]

Boy, a couple parts of you really got stuck in a wringer.

Since the brief union of the two leagues, JCA has not played at Gately. Providence and BR are hardly "urban." I don't know for sure, but I would bet large sums that the Urban Prep, Simeon and Thornton games you mentioned were playoffs. MC hosted Marist at Soldier Field.

I don't recall any ESCC teams electing to play "urban' games on the road during the season other than the St Patrick game you mentioned. I do know that St Patrick beat St Rita at Soldier Field this year. Perhaps they had to travel to 77th Street in order to get the Soldier Field assignment. I don't know. Perhaps St Rita will travel up to St Patrick next season. Again, I don't know. But consider that St Patrick is a Chicago school and their home field (Hanson Stadium) is not exactly the Gold Coast.

I do know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick.

Carmel has been to the city

FIRST!

Can I take that bet?

Also, CoM played a home-and-home with Phillips in 2014 and 2015.

They also played Hubbard at Gately I want to say 5 years ago

 

[CCHS-Fan]

CCHS has never played Hubbard.

 

[USD24]

Boy, a couple parts of you really got stuck in a wringer.

Since the brief union of the two leagues, JCA has not played at Gately. Providence and BR are hardly "urban." I don't know for sure, but I would bet large sums that the Urban Prep, Simeon and Thornton games you mentioned were playoffs. MC hosted Marist at Soldier Field.

I don't recall any ESCC teams electing to play "urban' games on the road during the season other than the St Patrick game you mentioned. I do know that St Patrick beat St Rita at Soldier Field this year. Perhaps they had to travel to 77th Street in order to get the Soldier Field assignment. I don't know. Perhaps St Rita will travel up to St Patrick next season. Again, I don't know. But consider that St Patrick is a Chicago school and their home field (Hanson Stadium) is not exactly the Gold Coast.

I do know that Carmel of Mundelein hasn't been in the city during the season other than Marist or St Patrick.

Notre Dame played AT Thornton week one this year.

 

[NazDad]

It seems that the premise of Mr. Helfgot's statement is solving the CCL's "smaller schools into crossover games against the big bad Catholic Blue" problem. The ESCC isn't broken and has produced very competitive teams in most sports throughout the years including several state champions. I realize that this is a football board, however conference affiliations are done with all students in mind not just the football team.

Good Luck CCL, IMO the ESCC is doing just fine as we are.

 

[Topiarydan1]

The CMC is only natural to occur again - out of necessity vs IHSA BS and dwindling private school enrollments. Unless vouchers are in the near future, then I can only assume the following will be the new CMC Blue
Loyola
Notre Dame
Brother Rice
Marist
Mt Carmel

CMC White
Providence
DeLaSalle
Benet
St Rita
Joliet Catholic

CMC Green
St Laurence
Fenwick
Nazareth
St Patrick
Montini

CMC Gold
Bishop Mac
St Ignatius
Marian Catholic
DePaul
St Joseph

CMC Red
St Viator
Carmel of Mundelein
St Francis
Marmion
Marian Central Catholic

CMC Interdominational
Aurora Christian
Aurora Central Catholic
Wheaton Academy
Leo
Lake Forest Academy

 

[mc140]

I realize that this is a football board, however conference affiliations are done with all students in mind not just the football team.

While I am sure there is one somewhere, in the last five years what conference was changed due to a sport other than football?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

OOOPS!

Another oops for you:

Viator played Dunbar at Lane Tech in week 2 of 2010.

 

[pjjp]

It seems that the premise of Mr. Helfgot's statement is solving the CCL's "smaller schools into crossover games against the big bad Catholic Blue" problem. The ESCC isn't broken and has produced very competitive teams in most sports throughout the years including several state champions. I realize that this is a football board, however conference affiliations are done with all students in mind not just the football team.

Good Luck CCL, IMO the ESCC is doing just fine as we are.

What about the travel in the ESCC? Don't you think the travel demands could be improved with a combination of the ESCC and CCL?

And as you state, conference affiliation is determined by all sports. Think about the travel during the week for sports like volleyball or basketball. Wouldn't the extracurricular experience for those student athletes be improved if the travel time and demands were lessened?

 

[USD24]

What about the travel in the ESCC? Don't you think the travel demands could be improved with a combination of the ESCC and CCL?

And as you state, conference affiliation is determined by all sports. Think about the travel during the week for sports like volleyball or basketball. Wouldn't the extracurricular experience for those student athletes be improved if the travel time and demands were lessened?

What do you mean? I love driving up to Woodstock from Joliet during the week to watch my daughter play volleyball

 

[NazDad]

What about the travel in the ESCC? Don't you think the travel demands could be improved with a combination of the ESCC and CCL?

And as you state, conference affiliation is determined by all sports. Think about the travel during the week for sports like volleyball or basketball. Wouldn't the extracurricular experience for those student athletes be improved if the travel time and demands were lessened?

Whereas your travel concerns are legitimate and I'm sure there are other positive factors, there are also issues that aren't helpful to the CCL, Girls sports in a different albeit affiliated conference for one.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I've been advocating a mega private conference for a very long time. Now, I am beginning to have second thoughts in favor of the district concept.

Why? We already see now where certain CCL schools refuse to play in the Blue. How many ESCC and CCL schools would volunteer to play in the most competitive seven school division of a combined new conference? How many would refuse if such a placement were suggested? Now, work your way down to the second and third most competitive divisions. There will be less competitive schools in those divisions that are unhappy with their placements.

If divisions were formed more on geography, would MCC, Carmel, Viator, ND, and Pat's want to be in the same division with Loyola? Tough to be in a geographically based division that stretches from Woodstock on the NW to Mundelein on the NE and to Portage Park on the south. Throw Fenwick into that mix to make it a seven school division, and the geography gets worse. What about DePaul Prep? Would they want out if they were put in that division?

A central division of Fenwick, Pat's, Ignatius, DLS, Naz and Laurence would work from a geographic standpoint, but would Ignatius want to be in that division? Who else would want to be in that division to make it seven or eight schools? St. Joe? Leo? Doubtful.

Where do Bishop Mac and Marian Catholic go?

Too wide a variety of geographic, competitive, and enrollment outliers with too few schools at at either end of those spectrums to keep those outliers company and find a natural division for them.

I think you either go all in with the NIPL that takes in ALL the Chicago metro area private schools (in order to provide the most flexibility), or nothing at all. Just combining the ESCC and CCL wouldn't be big enough.

 

[Goomlah]

Let me ask an honest question for everyone involved.

Is the system that broke that we need fundamental changes to everything in football? I know it's not perfect but it isn't bad either.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Let me ask an honest question for everyone involved.

Is the system that broke that we need fundamental changes to everything in football? I know it's not perfect but it isn't bad either.

Reorganizing and better alignment is fundamental change to everything? The kind of change being talked about in this thread pales in comparison to the change that the IHSA has foisted upon private schools.

Tell me, gooms, how do you like the multiplier and success factor? Year in and year out, does NDCP really belong in 8A with schools like LWE, HF, MS, LA, Palatine, etc.? Do you like the fact that schools like Glenbard West get moved down to 7A because 6A sized schools like NDCP get bumped up to 8A?

Change is already here. Private schools are changing right now, especially with respect to enrollment. Banding together and finding strength, stability, and consensus in numbers is something that private schools need to do.

Waiting for something to break before fixing it often results in the fix happening from a position of weakness...or the amount of damage is so great that it isn't fixable at all. Do you wait until the engine seizes up to finally change the oil in your car? Sometimes, it's better to be ahead of the curve than to react to it.

 

[mullin17]

I am not saying this is the answer, but would the Private school conference dilemma be resolved if every school made the playoffs? Then there would be no reason to "refuse" a conference. I understand why DLS and Fenwick don't want the Blue because wins=playoffs.

 

[UlbKA91]

What do you mean? I love driving up to Woodstock from Joliet during the week to watch my daughter play volleyball

Damn, I thought going from St. Anastasia Waukegan to Transfiguration Wauconda was bad...

 

[UlbKA91]

I am not saying this is the answer, but would the Private school conference dilemma be resolved if every school made the playoffs? Then there would be no reason to "refuse" a conference. I understand why DLS and Fenwick don't want the Blue because wins=playoffs.

Since those 2 plus Iggy might not be able to avoid the "NIPL Largest" due to the enrollment #s, they might just crap about every year being a 1-and done in the playoff. That poses a question for teams that would straddle the cutoff between NIPL large and medium (Provy, Montini) or NIPL medium and small (B-Mac) - do you make overall school enrollment/admittance/aid decisions in order to remain within the smaller division's enrollment thresholds?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I am not saying this is the answer, but would the Private school conference dilemma be resolved if every school made the playoffs? Then there would be no reason to "refuse" a conference. I understand why DLS and Fenwick don't want the Blue because wins=playoffs.

To a certain extent, yes, the dilemma would be resolved if all schools made the playoffs. The extent to which it wouldn't be resolved would be those schools that would not want to always be sub-500 year in and year out. There is a certain amount of pride involved here.

Also, private schools don't have district boundaries like public schools do. Many of them compete with each other for the same kids. Private schools do not want to always lose to, or be blown out by, other private schools with whom they compete for students from the same area. Imagine if Marist and Rice (located two miles from each other) were in the same division and one school dominated the other year in and year out. Forget about pride, now we are talking about the potential for lost tuition revenue.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Since those 2 plus Iggy might not be able to avoid the "NIPL Largest" due to the enrollment #s, they might just crap about every year being a 1-and done in the playoff. That poses a question for teams that would straddle the cutoff between NIPL large and medium (Provy, Montini) or NIPL medium and small (B-Mac) - do you make overall school enrollment/admittance/aid decisions in order to remain within the smaller division's enrollment thresholds?

No. A school like Mac would love to have a couple hundred more students...even if it meant it had to play in a higher playoff classification.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Reorganizing and better alignment is fundamental change to everything? The kind of change being talked about in this thread pales in comparison to the change that the IHSA has foisted upon private schools.

Tell me, gooms, how do you like the multiplier and success factor? Year in and year out, does NDCP really belong in 8A with schools like LWE, HF, MS, LA, Palatine, etc.? Do you like the fact that schools like Glenbard West get moved down to 7A because 6A sized schools like NDCP get bumped up to 8A?

Change is already here. Private schools are changing right now, especially with respect to enrollment. Banding together and finding strength, stability, and consensus in numbers is something that private schools need to do.

Waiting for something to break before fixing it often results in the fix happening from a position of weakness...or the amount of damage is so great that it isn't fixable at all. Do you wait until the engine seizes up to finally change the oil in your car? Sometimes, it's better to be ahead of the curve than to react to it.

What I think is fair is LA,BR,MC, maybe SR and Marist should all be 8A all the time and rest of the CCL and ESCC split between 6A and 7A. I know there are flaws in the logic but I think 6A, 7A and 8A would be very competitive every year.

 

[MC63]

Another oops for you:

Viator played Dunbar at Lane Tech in week 2 of 2010.

Oops on you, little buddy. Lane Tech is located at Addison and California. Not exactly the inner city. Plus, one game a decade doesn't show much of a commitment.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Oops on you, little buddy. Lane Tech is in a good neighborhood.

First it was urban, as in "the ESCC coaches didn't like going into 'urban' neighborhoods" and as in "I don't recall any ESCC teams electing to play 'urban' games on the road during the season

Newsflash: Lane is urban with or without quotation marks.

You were disproven with CCHS at Phillips and also at Morgan Park. Now you are backpedaling to good vs. not so good neighborhoods when I uncovered a Viator game played at Lane.

You are really screwing the pooch in this thread.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

What I think is fair is LA,BR,MC, maybe SR and Marist should all be 8A all the time and rest of the CCL and ESCC split between 6A and 7A. I know there are flaws in the logic but I think 6A, 7A and 8A would be very competitive every year.

You think it's fair to have CCL schools like Leo, St. Joe and DePaul Prep in 6A? Yikes.