Trump’s lies are not the problem. It’s the millions who swallow them

WVMade

Redshirt
Aug 23, 2016
1,221
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0
Compulsive liars shouldn’t frighten you. They can harm no one, if no one listens to them. Compulsive believers, on the other hand: they should terrify you. Believers are the liars’ enablers. Their votes give the demagogue his power. Their trust turns the charlatan into the president. Their credulity ensures that the propaganda of half-calculating and half-mad fanatics has the power to change the world.


Mainstream journalists are almost as credulous. After decades of imitating Jeremy Paxman and seizing on the trivial gaffes and small lies of largely harmless politicians, they are unable to cope with the fantastic lies of the new authoritarian movements. When confronted with men who lie so instinctively they believe their lies as they tell them, they can only insist on a fair hearing for the sake of “balance”. Their acceptance signals to the audience the unbelievable is worthy of belief.


“Rednecks” are also embarrassingly evident among Britain’s expensively educated conservative commentators, who cannot see how the world has changed. They say that of course they don’t support everything Trump does. Their throats cleared and backs covered, they insist that the real enemy is his “foaming” and “hysterical” critics whose opposition to the alt-right is not a legitimate protest by democratic citizens but an “elitist” denial of democracy itself.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/05/donald-trump-lies-belief-totalitarianism
 

moe

Sophomore
May 29, 2001
32,530
150
63
Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying

MILWAUKEE — If President Trump’s first tumultuous weeks have done nothing else, at least they have again made us a nation of readers.

As Americans grapple with the unreality of the new administration, George Orwell’s “1984” has enjoyed a resurgence of interest, becoming a surprise best seller and an invaluable guide to our post-factual world.

On his first full day in office Mr. Trump insisted that his inaugural crowd was the largest ever, a baseless boast that will likely set a pattern for his relationship both to the media and to the truth.

At an event marking Black History Month last week, the president took a detour from a discussion of Frederick Douglass — he described the abolitionist as “an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more” — to talk about the press. “A lot of the media is actually the opposition party — they’re so biased,” he said. “So much of the media is the opposition party and knowingly saying incorrect things.”

Mr. Trump understands that attacking the media is the reddest of meat for his base, which has been conditioned to reject reporting from news sites outside of the conservative media ecosystem.

For years, as a conservative radio talk show host, I played a role in that conditioning by hammering the mainstream media for its bias and double standards. But the price turned out to be far higher than I imagined. The cumulative effect of the attacks was to delegitimize those outlets and essentially destroy much of the right’s immunity to false information. We thought we were creating a savvier, more skeptical audience. Instead, we opened the door for President Trump, who found an audience that could be easily misled.

The news media’s spectacular failure to get the election right has made it only easier for many conservatives to ignore anything that happens outside the right’s bubble and for the Trump White House to fabricate facts with little fear of alienating its base.

Unfortunately, that also means that the more the fact-based media tries to debunk the president’s falsehoods, the further it will entrench the battle lines.

During his first week in office, Mr. Trump reiterated the unfounded charge that millions of people had voted illegally. When challenged on the evident falsehood, Sean Spicer, the White House press secretary, seemed to argue that Mr. Trump’s belief that something was true qualified as evidence. The press secretary also declined to answer a straightforward question about the unemployment rate, suggesting that the number will henceforth be whatever the Trump administration wants it to be.

He can do this because members of the Trump administration feel confident that the alternative-reality media will provide air cover, even if they are caught fabricating facts or twisting words (like claiming that the “ban” on Muslim immigrants wasn’t really a “ban”). Indeed, they believe they have shifted the paradigm of media coverage, replacing the traditional media with their own.

In a stunning demonstration of the power and resiliency of our new post-factual political culture, Mr. Trump and his allies in the right media have already turned the term “fake news” against its critics, essentially draining it of any meaning. During the campaign, actual “fake news” — deliberate hoaxes — polluted political discourse and clogged social media timelines.

Some outlets opened the door, by helping spread conspiracy theories and indulging the paranoia of the fever swamps. For years, the widely read Drudge Report has linked to the bizarre conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, who believes that both the attacks of Sept. 11 and the Sandy Hook shootings were government-inspired “false flag” operations.

For conservatives, this should have made it clear that something was badly amiss in their media ecosystem. But now any news deemed to be biased, annoying or negative can be labeled “fake news.” Erroneous reports that the bust of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had been removed from the Oval Office or misleading reports that sanctions against Russia had been lifted will be seized on by Mr. Trump’s White House to reinforce his indictment.

Even as he continues to attack the “dishonest media,” Mr. Trump and his allies are empowering this alt-reality media, providing White House access to Breitbart and other post-factual outlets that are already morphing into fierce defenders of the administration.

The relationship appears to be symbiotic, as Mr. Trump often seems to pick up on talking points from Fox News and has tweeted out links from websites notorious for their casual relationship to the truth, including sites like Gateway Pundit, a hoax-peddling site that announced, shortly after the inauguration, that it would have a White House correspondent.

By now, it ought to be evident that enemies are important to this administration, whether they are foreigners, refugees, international bankers or the press.

But discrediting independent sources of information also has two major advantages for Mr. Trump: It helps insulate him from criticism and it allows him to create his own narratives, metrics and “alternative facts.”

All administrations lie, but what we are seeing here is an attack on credibility itself.

The Russian dissident and chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov drew upon long familiarity with that process when he tweeted: “The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.”

Mr. Kasparov grasps that the real threat is not merely that a large number of Americans have become accustomed to rejecting factual information, or even that they have become habituated to believing hoaxes. The real danger is that, inundated with “alternative facts,” many voters will simply shrug, asking, “What is truth?” — and not wait for an answer.

In that world, the leader becomes the only reliable source of truth; a familiar phenomenon in an authoritarian state, but a radical departure from the norms of a democratic society. The battle over truth is now central to our politics.

This may explain one of the more revealing moments from after the election, when one of Mr. Trump’s campaign surrogates, Scottie Nell Hughes, was asked to defend the clearly false statement by Mr. Trump that millions of votes had been cast illegally. She answered by explaining that everybody now had their own way of interpreting whether a fact was true or not.

There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts,” she declared. Among “a large part of the population” what Mr. Trump said was the truth.

“When he says that millions of people illegally voted,” she said, his supporters believe him — and “people believe they have facts to back that up.

Or as George Orwell said: “The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.” But Ms. Hughes’s comment was perhaps unintentionally insightful. Mr. Trump and company seem to be betting that much of the electorate will not care if the president tells demonstrable lies, and will pick and choose whatever “alternative facts” confirm their views.

The next few years will be a test of that thesis.

In the meantime, we must recognize the magnitude of the challenge. If we want to restore respect for facts and break through the intellectual ghettos on both the right and left, the mainstream media will have to be aggressive without being hysterical and adversarial without being unduly oppositional.

Perhaps just as important, it will be incumbent on conservative media outlets to push back as well. Conservatism should be a reality-based philosophy, and the movement will be better off if it recognizes that facts really do matter. There may be short-term advantages to running headlines about millions of illegal immigrants voting or secret United Nations plots to steal your guns, but the longer the right enables such fabrications, the weaker it will be in the long run. As uncomfortable as it may be, it will fall to the conservative media to police its worst actors.

The conservative media ecosystem — like the rest of us — has to recognize how critical, but also how fragile, credibility is in the Orwellian age of Donald Trump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/...ight-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
I wonder how many people believed they could keep their health care plan? I wonder how many people believed they could keep their doctor? I wonder how many people believed they would save $2500 per year? I wonder how many people believed ISIS was the JV team? I wonder how many people believed that Benghazi was caused by a video? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said he would have the most transparent administration in history? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said the IRS had not a smidgen of corruption? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said we have shovel ready projects ready all over the country? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said unemployment would never exceed 8% if his stimulus was passed?

I could go on and on.
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
Compulsive liars shouldn’t frighten you. They can harm no one, if no one listens to them. Compulsive believers, on the other hand: they should terrify you. Believers are the liars’ enablers. Their votes give the demagogue his power. Their trust turns the charlatan into the president. Their credulity ensures that the propaganda of half-calculating and half-mad fanatics has the power to change the world.


Mainstream journalists are almost as credulous. After decades of imitating Jeremy Paxman and seizing on the trivial gaffes and small lies of largely harmless politicians, they are unable to cope with the fantastic lies of the new authoritarian movements. When confronted with men who lie so instinctively they believe their lies as they tell them, they can only insist on a fair hearing for the sake of “balance”. Their acceptance signals to the audience the unbelievable is worthy of belief.


“Rednecks” are also embarrassingly evident among Britain’s expensively educated conservative commentators, who cannot see how the world has changed. They say that of course they don’t support everything Trump does. Their throats cleared and backs covered, they insist that the real enemy is his “foaming” and “hysterical” critics whose opposition to the alt-right is not a legitimate protest by democratic citizens but an “elitist” denial of democracy itself.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/05/donald-trump-lies-belief-totalitarianism
do you REALLY believe this hogwash?.....remember...."you've got to pass it to find out what's in it?"......or "elections have consequences"?.......Mr Trump has not done anything near to the hoodwinking that obama put this country thru, and if you are too blinded to see that then maybe, like whoopi, you should move to someplace where you can be taken advantage of like the rest of us were the last 8 years.....get a life
 

moe

Sophomore
May 29, 2001
32,530
150
63
I wonder how many people believed they could keep their health care plan? I wonder how many people believed they could keep their doctor? I wonder how many people believed they would save $2500 per year? I wonder how many people believed ISIS was the JV team? I wonder how many people believed that Benghazi was caused by a video? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said he would have the most transparent administration in history? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said the IRS had not a smidgen of corruption? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said we have shovel ready projects ready all over the country? I wonder how many people believed Obama when he said unemployment would never exceed 8% if his stimulus was passed?

I could go on and on.
I love it when Trump bootlickers have zero defense for something, they select from two choices 1) they say hey look at what the last guy did...2) or they just troll by saying we won, both very weak and a total dodge of whatever is being discussed. Did BO say that the media couldn't be believed? No that was you and Trump. Good luck to Trump and his loyal followers in creating Pravda in the U.S. I'll just pick one big lie, he's got 4 years to find the millions of illegal ballots cast (against him). My prediction is that they'll totally ignore actual ballots cast but will go find the worst county that they can that has some deceased voters and/or other roster irregularities then say that if you extrapolated that over the whole country it would yield some large number which would still lack the linkage of having votes cast by those "voters'. Keep on defending Trump and believing his lies (ex. bringing significant numbers of well paying jobs back to the rust belt). He's the only person that you can believe anyways, right?
 

WVMade

Redshirt
Aug 23, 2016
1,221
0
0
do you REALLY believe this hogwash?.....remember...."you've got to pass it to find out what's in it?"......or "elections have consequences"?.......Mr Trump has not done anything near to the hoodwinking that obama put this country thru, and if you are too blinded to see that then maybe, like whoopi, you should move to someplace where you can be taken advantage of like the rest of us were the last 8 years.....get a life
Just curious how Obama took advantage of you for 8 years. Also, why do you care about "whoopi" so much? She's a has been actress.She's not in any position to affect your life and never was.
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
s
I love it when Trump bootlickers have zero defense for something, they select from two choices 1) they say hey look at what the last guy did...2) or they just troll by saying we won, both very weak and a total dodge of whatever is being discussed. Did BO say that the media couldn't be believed? No that was you and Trump. Good luck to Trump and his loyal followers in creating Pravda in the U.S. I'll just pick one big lie, he's got 4 years to find the millions of illegal ballots cast (against him). My prediction is that they'll totally ignore actual ballots cast but will go find the worst county that they can that has some deceased voters and/or other roster irregularities then say that if you extrapolated that over the whole country it would yield some large number which would still lack the linkage of having votes cast by those "voters'. Keep on defending Trump and believing his lies (ex. bringing significant numbers of well paying jobs back to the rust belt). He's the only person that you can believe anyways, right?[/QUOTO]
sounds like sour grapes to me......to quote from The Outlaw Josey Wales........"our side won...your side lost...to the victor goes the spoils
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
Just curious how Obama took advantage of you for 8 years. Also, why do you care about "whoopi" so much? She's a has been actress.She's not in any position to affect your life and never was.
my wife's insurance premiums more than doubled after "you've got to pass it before you find out what's in it."...that was enough for me...and whoopi is a rich politically uneducated ***** who NEVER feels the problems of every day americans...just like all the other hollywood "stars"...if they want to help have them give some of their millions to the poor...but wait...that's unamerican
 

moe

Sophomore
May 29, 2001
32,530
150
63
You've been on this board how long? and you still don't know how to reply to a post? sweet. I see that you've chosen #2, good choice. Your quote is about half right which is probably pretty good for you...you've had a big day already, take the rest of the day off.
 

WVMade

Redshirt
Aug 23, 2016
1,221
0
0
my wife's insurance premiums more than doubled after "you've got to pass it before you find out what's in it."...that was enough for me...and whoopi is a rich politically uneducated ***** who NEVER feels the problems of every day americans...just like all the other hollywood "stars"...if they want to help have them give some of their millions to the poor...but wait...that's unamerican
I'm guessing the gap between your wife's premium vs. coverage is enormous. "Nothing is free".
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
I'm guessing the gap between your wife's premium vs. coverage is enormous. "Nothing is free".
actually when she retired her insurance coverage was promised to her as part of her retirement......then a year and a half later she got a letter stating that because of the costs affiliated with the affordable care act the deal was off......how else are you going to spin that one Bud?
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
You've been on this board how long? and you still don't know how to reply to a post? sweet. I see that you've chosen #2, good choice. Your quote is about half right which is probably pretty good for you...you've had a big day already, take the rest of the day off.
some of us poor conservatives aren't as internet intellectual as you libs...exCUUUUUUUSE me:scream:
 

WhiteTailEER

Sophomore
Jun 17, 2005
11,534
170
0
actually when she retired her insurance coverage was promised to her as part of her retirement......then a year and a half later she got a letter stating that because of the costs affiliated with the affordable care act the deal was off......how else are you going to spin that one Bud?

You know ... I'm gonna have to call ******** on that.
I have no doubt that those things happened and that's what the company said ... but it doesn't balance with reality. When you start looking at retirements benefits, companies will look to any excuse they can muster to cut them. Happens all the time. Has been happening for decades, well before "Obamacare" ever passed anybody's lips.

My company had insurance that was compliant with ACA, and my rates didn't change at all, in fact they went down slightly, when the ACA is enacted.

I think your wife's company just saw a convenient scapegoat to get out of paying all of those retirement benefits.
 

WhiteTailEER

Sophomore
Jun 17, 2005
11,534
170
0
For instance ... they could have said:

"insurance premiums are going up, we will still cover the portion of the premium equivalent to what we were paying before ... if you want to keep your insurance with us, you will have to pay the difference"

But they didn't do that ... they cut it altogether ... again, they found a scapegoat and took advantage to get out of paying the benefits
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
You know ... I'm gonna have to call ******** on that.
I have no doubt that those things happened and that's what the company said ... but it doesn't balance with reality. When you start looking at retirements benefits, companies will look to any excuse they can muster to cut them. Happens all the time. Has been happening for decades, well before "Obamacare" ever passed anybody's lips.

My company had insurance that was compliant with ACA, and my rates didn't change at all, in fact they went down slightly, when the ACA is enacted.

I think your wife's company just saw a convenient scapegoat to get out of paying all of those retirement benefits.
it was a county government....call ******** all you want...we've still got the letter...her premium went from 250 to 675 a month
 

Snow Sled Baby

Sophomore
Jan 4, 2003
44,525
111
53
You know ... I'm gonna have to call ******** on that.
I have no doubt that those things happened and that's what the company said ... but it doesn't balance with reality. When you start looking at retirements benefits, companies will look to any excuse they can muster to cut them. Happens all the time. Has been happening for decades, well before "Obamacare" ever passed anybody's lips.

My company had insurance that was compliant with ACA, and my rates didn't change at all, in fact they went down slightly, when the ACA is enacted.

I think your wife's company just saw a convenient scapegoat to get out of paying all of those retirement benefits.
they told her her rate was 250 per month and they would cover the rest....wrong
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
I love it when Trump bootlickers have zero defense for something, they select from two choices 1) they say hey look at what the last guy did...2) or they just troll by saying we won, both very weak and a total dodge of whatever is being discussed. Did BO say that the media couldn't be believed? No that was you and Trump. Good luck to Trump and his loyal followers in creating Pravda in the U.S. I'll just pick one big lie, he's got 4 years to find the millions of illegal ballots cast (against him). My prediction is that they'll totally ignore actual ballots cast but will go find the worst county that they can that has some deceased voters and/or other roster irregularities then say that if you extrapolated that over the whole country it would yield some large number which would still lack the linkage of having votes cast by those "voters'. Keep on defending Trump and believing his lies (ex. bringing significant numbers of well paying jobs back to the rust belt). He's the only person that you can believe anyways, right?
Nice post. I could ask why Biff keeps bringing up the fake 3-5 million voters story, and Hillary and Obama will be mentioned on the first page of threads.