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Trump has lots of work to do

atlkvb

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,968
1,891
113
If he's going to convince Conservatives this "repeal and replace" AHCA is really not ACA 'lite'.

The details get complicated but the essential question is how much of a role should the Federal Government have in the individual marketplace called "health Insurance"?

Conservatives argue very little if any, and of course the Left wants total Government control over it.

Speaker Ryan's bill (and the one Trump currently backs) tries to "thread the needle" so to speak to split the difference between total Leviathan style authoritarianism and true free market Consumer driven choice. Neither of which is in this bill.

Trump's skill may come from his ability to convince voters this is the best we can hope to pass for now with recalcitrant Leftists willing to block true market freedoms, and terrified establishment Republicans who don't want to trust that a free market based solution giving health care consumers power to make their own choices is all we need to fix health insurance costs in the system.

So because of those disputes, there are subsidies in this bill disguised as 'tax credits' and mandates on insurers instead of individuals...all of which drive up costs and ultimately do nothing to assure affordability of Health insurance policies or affordable health care services.

The battle will come over this struggle of doing nothing, doing this, or doing it right and totally removing Government from the equation. The Left is ready to block anything that removes any Government controls, the Right wants to see it (Government) removed totally. So the scrum is going to be over how Trump convinces Legislators to settle their differences between those two extremes.

Stay tuned.
 
Last edited:
Airport

Airport

All-Conference
Dec 12, 2001
81,884
2,032
113
atlkvb said:
If he's going to convince Conservatives this "repeal and replace" AHCA is really not ACA 'lite'.

The details get complicated but the essential question is how much of a role should the Federal Government have in the individual marketplace called "health Insurance"?

Conservatives argue very little if any, and of course the Left wants total Government control over it.

Speaker Ryan's bill (and the one Trump currently backs) tries to "thread the needle" so to speak to split the difference between total Leviathan style authoritarianism and true free market Consumer driven choice. Neither of which is in this bill.

Trumps's skill may come from his ability to convince voters this is the best we can hope to pass for now with recalcitrant Leftists willing to block true market freedoms, and terrified establishment Republicans who don't want to trust that a free market based solution giving health care consumers power to make their own choices is all we need to fix health insurance costs in the system.

So because of those disputes, there are subsidies in this bill disguised as 'tax credits' and mandates on insurers instead of individuals...all of which drive up costs and ultimately do nothing to assure affordability of Health insurance policies or affordable health care services.

The battle will come over this struggle of doing nothing, doing this, or doing it right and totally removing Government from the equation. The Left is ready to block anything that removes any Government controls, the Right wants to see it (Government) removed totally. So the scrum is going to be over how Trump convinces Legislators to settle their differences between those two extremes.

Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
Wrong board
 
S

SacreBleu

Freshman
Jun 12, 2009
1,625
75
0
atlkvb said:
If he's going to convince Conservatives this "repeal and replace" AHCA is really not ACA 'lite'.

The details get complicated but the essential question is how much of a role should the Federal Government have in the individual marketplace called "health Insurance"?

Conservatives argue very little if any, and of course the Left wants total Government control over it.

Speaker Ryan's bill (and the one Trump currently backs) tries to "thread the needle" so to speak to split the difference between total Leviathan style authoritarianism and true free market Consumer driven choice. Neither of which is in this bill.

Trumps's skill may come from his ability to convince voters this is the best we can hope to pass for now with recalcitrant Leftists willing to block true market freedoms, and terrified establishment Republicans who don't want to trust that a free market based solution giving health care consumers power to make their own choices is all we need to fix health insurance costs in the system.

So because of those disputes, there are subsidies in this bill disguised as 'tax credits' and mandates on insurers instead of individuals...all of which drive up costs and ultimately do nothing to assure affordability of Health insurance policies or affordable health care services.

The battle will come over this struggle of doing nothing, doing this, or doing it right and totally removing Government from the equation. The Left is ready to block anything that removes any Government controls, the Right wants to see it (Government) removed totally. So the scrum is going to be over how Trump convinces Legislators to settle their differences between those two extremes.

Stay tuned.
Click to expand...

You seem confused. This is the rocket launch board.
 
O

older gold

Junior
Jun 19, 2001
14,483
290
0
Democrats gave us a terrible health care law.

Republicans bitched and moaned for 8 years. Now, the GOP has a chance to fix the problem. And they have no clue. They are caught with their pants down.

The two biggest problems in our country are the Democratic and Republican parties, in no particular order.
 
G

Goldmember

Freshman
Feb 15, 2002
7,109
54
0
We will be having discussions of this sort IN THE POLITICAL REALM for the next 8 years won't we??!! Now, on to WVU sports...
 
R

Raven Shaddock

Redshirt
Oct 15, 2016
17,326
0
0
Damn straight he does. In the meantime, he needs to use some of the bricks we're throwing up to build his wall.
 
atlkvb

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,968
1,891
113
older gold said:
Democrats gave us a terrible health care law.

Republicans bitched and moaned for 8 years. Now, the GOP has a chance to fix the problem. And they have no clue. They are caught with their pants down.

The two biggest problems in our country are the Democratic and Republican parties, in no particular order.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you it's a mess right now because the politicos don't and never have trusted the people. I'm not sure what the ultimate solution is, but I'm at least willing to try letting folks decide how much Insurance they want to pay for (if any) on their own.

I'm convinced that Government running Health care in any way is not our answer.
 
G

gardeneer

Redshirt
Jun 19, 2002
2,708
16
0
older gold said:
Democrats gave us a terrible health care law.

Republicans bitched and moaned for 8 years. Now, the GOP has a chance to fix the problem. And they have no clue. They are caught with their pants down.

The two biggest problems in our country are the Democratic and Republican parties, in no particular order.
Click to expand...

For anyone that can put down the partisan goggles for a moment (it gets hard for me at times), this is a really good read on politics today and what little is left of the democracy the founders intended:

http://fortune.com/2017/03/09/why-politics-is-failing-america/
 
G

gardeneer

Redshirt
Jun 19, 2002
2,708
16
0
atlkvb said:
I'd agree with you it's a mess right now because the politicos don't and never have trusted the people. I'm not sure what the ultimate solution is, but I'm at least willing to try letting folks decide how much Insurance they want to pay for (if any) on their own.

I'm convinced that Government running Health care in any way is not our answer.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking - what happens to those that decide they don't want to pay for insurance, and those that cannot afford insurance? When they get sick and need expensive care do we let them die, do we deny the best coverage, do we allocate them to second level clinics? Just curious what the conservative point of view is for healthcare as an independent capitalist business - which it seems is what most conservatives want. Should healthcare be a business that has profit assigned to it? Just looking for an honest answer since I am on the complete opposite end of the spectrum (supporting single payer universal coverage system).
 
atlkvb

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,968
1,891
113
gardeneer said:
Just curious what the conservative point of view is for healthcare as an independent capitalist business
Click to expand...

gardeneer what happens if you don't eat?

If you drive a car what happens if you don't put gas in it or Insure it?

If you buy a home or live in an apartment what happens if you don't pay your Mortgage or rent?

No one "wants" people to not have at least access to Health care or Health Insurance. But where is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for what you can and should pay for yourself?

If you want Government to pay for everyone's health care, why not your food, or your car, or your housing?

Why stop at health care, or cede Government control of it over your own choices for it?

I don't blame you being honest about your beliefs, but explain them to me because I'm on the exact opposite end of you.

I don't want or need the Government running ANY part of my Life choices, least of all health care!

So explain to me why you see that role for Government differently?
 
G

gardeneer

Redshirt
Jun 19, 2002
2,708
16
0
atlkvb said:
gardeneer what happens if you don't eat?

If you drive a car what happens if you don't put gas in it or Insure it?

If you buy a home or live in an apartment what happens if you don't pay your Mortgage or rent?

No one "wants" people to not have at least access to Health care or Health Insurance. But where is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for what you can and should pay for yourself?

If you want Government to pay for everyone's health care, why not your food, or your car, or your housing?

Why stop at health care, or cede Government control of it over your own choices for it?

I don't blame you being honest about your beliefs, but explain them to me because I'm on the exact opposite end of you.

I don't want or need the Government running ANY part of my Life choices, least of all health care!

So explain to me why you see that role for Government differently?
Click to expand...

Atlkvb - thanks for the reply. I guess it's not so much about comparing healthcare to other parts of our lives (food, your car, housing), but about taking the step to have government provide healthcare for all Americans as a right. I agree with Bernie and believe that Obamacare didn't go far enough. Now I know that view isn't popular to a lot on this board, but it's how I feel from my view on our journey as humans and higher thinking beings in this great big universe God created (and yes I do believe in God.)

I just don't accept that a country as rich and resourceful as ours should allow people to suffer or die from diseases and illnesses that we can control and eradicate. I would like to see single payer universal coverage and eliminate the "insurance" sector. This could provide for the common good of us as a country and a people. We have the ability to provide good medical care for all and I think this is an imperative step for our country to raise us as a species. Not to mention many other countries already offer good universal coverage.

Again, just my thoughts. I know it's not gonna get any love here but welcome the opportunity to just exchange different views.
 
atlkvb

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,968
1,891
113
gardeneer said:
Atlkvb - thanks for the reply. I guess it's not so much about comparing healthcare to other parts of our lives (food, your car, housing), but about taking the step to have government provide healthcare for all Americans as a right. I agree with Bernie and believe that Obamacare didn't go far enough. Now I know that view isn't popular to a lot on this board, but it's how I feel from my view on our journey as humans and higher thinking beings in this great big universe God created (and yes I do believe in God.)

I just don't accept that a country as rich and resourceful as ours should allow people to suffer or die from diseases and illnesses that we can control and eradicate. I would like to see single payer universal coverage and eliminate the "insurance" sector. This could provide for the common good of us as a country and a people. We have the ability to provide good medical care for all and I think this is an imperative step for our country to raise us as a species. Not to mention many other countries already offer good universal coverage.

Again, just my thoughts. I know it's not gonna get any love here but welcome the opportunity to just exchange different views.
Click to expand...

That's fine gardeneer. I'm not going to attack you because you sincerely believe this should be our obligation as a civil society. I share your concern honestly, but I simply disagree using the Government to meet it.

To me the proof is in looking to where single payer is working effectively where it is being utilized around the Globe. You are not going to find many models in a free society that answers that question "perfectly".

Why?

Because health care is not free. Someone pays for it, and when there are no individual controls on its costs or use, it tends to become very expensive & inefficient. Single payer also runs counter to human nature. You and I don't live the same way, or make the same Life choices, yet we should both get the same level of health care?

Suppose I'm more healthy than you, or suppose you take better care of yourself than me? There is no incentive under a single payer plan to contain costs, or improve care. Just as you can drive down any street in any neighborhood and see various styles of home in various stages of upkeep by the homeowners, you cannot design a one size fits all health care system that works exactly the same for everyone in need of it.

I think the best system (of anything really) is one where you are directly responsible for what you get out of it by what you are willing to put in it based on the choices you are free to make. It's the most efficient, cost effective method we've developed living responsibly under Freedom but it does require a measure of personal responsibility to make the right choices.

If there is one health issue in desperate need of immediate triage for our Free society in my opinion it is that...personal responsibility. We need a prescription to help us restore it, and in so doing I believe we'd begin to solve a lot of our issues depending on a big overbearing Government making choices for us instead of us responsibly making them for ourselves.

Appreciate your candor and respectful manner honestly addressing this issue.
 
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