Wainwright done for season
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There are so many reasons to bring the DH over to the NL; this is one of them. To lose an ace while he is doing something nobody wants to pay to watch him do in the first place is stupid.
Sorry, I loathe the DH. It should be abolished in both leagues. A pitcher is like any other position. If they play on the field they should bat. There's no reason that a pitcher cannot be effective at the plate. Many do have the skill to be an effective batter. Instead of taking away from that part of the game, maybe pitchers should work on batting practice like any other position. I think it takes away from the strategy of the game for the pitcher not to bat. Not to mention that if the pitcher throws high and inside he has to take his turn at the plate eventually, setting himself up for retaliation. That's part of the excitement of the National League. The DH only extends the career of fat, overweight players that can no longer play effectively on the field, taking roster space from younger more deserving individuals. I've talked with former major league players about just this topic and we agreed on that.
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Beat me to it, and put it better than I could have. I think the DH waters down the game.
It is rare that a pitcher will throw at another pitcher in retaliation (I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of a time off the top of my head). Pitchers hit hitters to instigate or retaliate, not pitchers. So, the argument that they will be more reluctant to hit guys for fear of getting hit themselves is a failed one, IMO. The rule is you hit the equivalent guy on their side.
To say that a pitcher is like any other position is ridiculous, in the same way that kickers aren't like any other position on the football field. Each skill (pitchers vs hittesr) is so highly specialized at the MLB level that there is virtually no overlap skill-wise, or athletically. Pitchers generally look like idiots at the plate and running the bases, and hitters look like idiots on the mound when they get a chance (long extra inning games, blowouts, etc.), and both often even get hurt. Pitchers don't even hit in college nor in the minors below AA, and only then when both teams agree to it (in the PCL). No, pitchers are not like any other position. MLB doesn't even pretend that is the case.
Yes, brilliant double-moves by NL managers and some late inning decisions are no longer part of the game. That's OK by me if it means my ace pitcher won't be lost for the season trying to run out a 14 hopper to end an inning in a meaningless game in April. Further, most fans don't even understand those moves as they are occurring anyway.
The makeup of the roster does change, no doubt about it. I don't agree that DH's are non-deserving, fat and overweight. Fans of hitting and MLB gain greatly by having a true professional, highly skilled hitters like Edgar Martinez be able to show his craft for so many years. I don't hear many people calling for the death of the 3rd-down running back or to outlaw the left-handed pitcher that throws to a single batter (or even the 8th inning guy or closer, for that matter). I guess I don't have a problem with guys doing their job and doing it well, even if it is a sub-set of the entire game. If anything, highly specialized skills and talents open up more opportunity for young guys.
To say that a pitcher is like any other position is ridiculous, in the same way that kickers aren't like any other position on the football field. Each skill (pitchers vs hittesr) is so highly specialized at the MLB level that there is virtually no overlap skill-wise, or athletically. Pitchers generally look like idiots at the plate and running the bases, and hitters look like idiots on the mound when they get a chance (long extra inning games, blowouts, etc.), and both often even get hurt. Pitchers don't even hit in college nor in the minors below AA, and only then when both teams agree to it (in the PCL). No, pitchers are not like any other position. MLB doesn't even pretend that is the case.
Yes, brilliant double-moves by NL managers and some late inning decisions are no longer part of the game. That's OK by me if it means my ace pitcher won't be lost for the season trying to run out a 14 hopper to end an inning in a meaningless game in April. Further, most fans don't even understand those moves as they are occurring anyway.
The makeup of the roster does change, no doubt about it. I don't agree that DH's are non-deserving, fat and overweight. Fans of hitting and MLB gain greatly by having a true professional, highly skilled hitters like Edgar Martinez be able to show his craft for so many years. I don't hear many people calling for the death of the 3rd-down running back or to outlaw the left-handed pitcher that throws to a single batter (or even the 8th inning guy or closer, for that matter). I guess I don't have a problem with guys doing their job and doing it well, even if it is a sub-set of the entire game. If anything, highly specialized skills and talents open up more opportunity for young guys.
Your argument that pitchers look ridiculous batting/running the bases is baseless. They don't have to perform poorly and teams don't have to draft/sign them. If they abolished the DH that would stop that crap right there. Colleges would then have their pitchers bat, which is what they should do since they are out on the field. Every team would have the same advantage/disadvantage.
In the past most shortstops didn't have very high batting averages. Most teams didn't weigh that part of their games as much as other positions because of their "highly specialized skills and talents". It's time we did away with this fallacy that pitchers can't bat or run. Good god, they've got two arms, two legs and are supposed to be athletes. If they can't then maybe they need to draft/sign someone who can. I see examples every year of pitchers that successfully lay down a bunt, hit the sacrifice fly, make the shallow single or steal the base. Baseball should evolve like you say it has. It's a blight on the game and should be remedied by abolishing it in the AL.
In the past most shortstops didn't have very high batting averages. Most teams didn't weigh that part of their games as much as other positions because of their "highly specialized skills and talents". It's time we did away with this fallacy that pitchers can't bat or run. Good god, they've got two arms, two legs and are supposed to be athletes. If they can't then maybe they need to draft/sign someone who can. I see examples every year of pitchers that successfully lay down a bunt, hit the sacrifice fly, make the shallow single or steal the base. Baseball should evolve like you say it has. It's a blight on the game and should be remedied by abolishing it in the AL.
If it weren't for the DH, I think you'd have alot of better hitting pitchers. Heck, we even still do on occasion. Carlos Zambrano and Dontrell Willis come to mind off hand. Heck, look at Rick Ankiel. Given he was never a great hitter, but he did serviceably after converting from pitcher to outfielder. It's a "use it or lose it" ability, and if they had to bat more often and more throughout their career, they'd be better at it.
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It needs to be the same in both leagues. And I like having the DH. But it needs to be the same. Also, I don't see it going away ever. College uses it, and that is a clear message things will not be changing.
Yep...completely baseless.
That, my friend, is what I call a "blight on the game".By your logic, you'd require kickers to play WR or RB. They are football players, they have two arms and two legs, and are supposed to be athletes. No...nothing would suffer at all. Great WR's would simply learn to be great kickers in their spare time. Sure, DPE might pull a hammy and be out for the year while kicking a meaningless extra point in a blowout victory, but apparently that's perfectly OK for you.
Colon has no business being in the batters box or on the base paths. Why do you even want to pay to see that? Why do you want to see good pitchers lost for the year doing stuff their bodies weren't trained (or even designed) to do? Just because some good things happen every now and then with pitchers at the plate doesn't mean that is (or even can be) the norm. It isn't, and won't ever be.
You seem to be under the impression that guys that throw 95 and hit .280 (or even .200) at the MLB level are just out there waiting at home for the call from a club. Neither one of those things is that easy by themselves, let alone being able to do both. Each one is kind of a full time job that involves very different mechanics, body make-up, and skills.
The simple fact that Colon is out there on an NL team completely tears apart your "they don't have to sign them" stance. They don't have to sign him, yet they did anyway (for 20 mil over two years). Teams will always sign the best pitchers they can (even in the NL) regardless of his hitting and base running acumen. In other words, they voluntarily gave up 3 outs every 5 days just to get him on the mound. Clubs (obviously) don't give a crap about whether they can bunt or hit a sac fly. They need outs.
Colon is perhaps the worst hitter in the game today. They had every opportunity to sign a guy that was a better athlete and hitter, but they didn't. They chose him instead because he's a good pitcher, which is the job he was born and trained to do.
All that being said, I'd still go for abolishing the DH if it meant that both the NL and AL would be on the same page. The fact that half of the teams in the same league play by different rules is literally unheard of in any sport that I know of. That is a bigger embarrassment than having to watch Colon at the plate.
Bartolo Colon looks ridiculous no matter what he does. Bad example there.
Yep...completely baseless.
By your logic, you'd require kickers to play WR or RB. They are football players, they have two arms and two legs, and are supposed to be athletes. No...nothing would suffer at all. Great WR's would simply learn to be great kickers in their spare time. Sure, DPE might pull a hammy and be out for the year while kicking a meaningless extra point in a blowout victory, but apparently that's perfectly OK for you.
Your analogy really isn't accurate. What you're saying would be like requiring a pitcher to also play first base and catch. Requiring a pitcher to hit would be like requiring kickers and punters to be able to tackle. Which, to an extent, they are required to do. Most of them suck at it, but on a break away kick return or punt return how often do you see a kicker or punter be the last guy with a chance to tackle the returner? And, how much of a disgrace is it to get tackled by the punter? Would be kind of like getting homered on by a pitcher.
Really, my analogy is about as close as you can get. A specialized position is expected to have at least a bsic ability to do what the other positions do. They don't do it well, but they are expected to do it or at least try to in a pinch.
The fact is that every NL team has the opportunity to draft/sign pitchers that can hit. Every team has the same advantage/disadvantage. It's just another position on the field. And no, baseball is not football. Apples to oranges. The ballboy wears a hat, but he's not playing on the field so he doesn't bat. The pitcher should and it leads to all kinds of strategy. And just reading the recap of my Reds game last light...
Pitchers hitting was part of the game for years and years, it was not until the offense started to dip that the DH came into being and has now become where the aging formerly good player goes or the guy who is one dimensional, like a kicker in football, sits on the bench until the 4 or 5 times he gets to go swing the bat.
Play the game and have the pitchers hit. The game will have reduced brawls because pitchers will have a bat in their hand after the plunk someone, think they'll throw as much at someone? Nope.
As well, actually thinking and having strategy will do the game good. Lower the mound if needed to keep the offenses up to the more ADD society we live in. But play the game.
Play the game and have the pitchers hit. The game will have reduced brawls because pitchers will have a bat in their hand after the plunk someone, think they'll throw as much at someone? Nope.
As well, actually thinking and having strategy will do the game good. Lower the mound if needed to keep the offenses up to the more ADD society we live in. But play the game.
If Abner Doubleday wanted a DH, he would have put it in the rules when he invented the game. (okay, he probably didn't invent the game but you get my point)
We cannot stay healthy. First Yadi, then Waino, then Heyward. We couldn't get out of Milwaukee quick enough last weekend.
It used to be a rule that if a fielder hit the runner with the ball, the runner was out (ala kickball). The batter was also out if the fielder caught the ball off of one hop. In the idea of the "never changing" game, should we bring those rules back also?
Are baseball brawls really that big of a problem? When they occur, they are generally headline stories, which means they don't occur very often. Further, they are usually much ado about nothing. More real fighting goes unnoticed in your average NFL game than takes place during your average baseball "brawl".
Here's a recent interesting article on the subject: http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2...tting-is-dumb-and-the-dh-should-be-universal/
And so no one will say I'm cherry picking articles, here's one from the other side of the argument: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-national-league-designated-hitter-debate-adam-wainwright/
And so no one will say I'm cherry picking articles, here's one from the other side of the argument: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-national-league-designated-hitter-debate-adam-wainwright/
National League ball is better to watch..let pitchers hit...STL will be just fine...they always are...solid organization
Yes, you are cherry picking your supporting docs. Nothing changes the truth. You like the DH. However, the game is much more interesting without the DH. A pitcher can get injured pitching. Should he no longer be allowed to pitch? A pitcher can get injured driving a car. Should he no longer be allowed to drive? A pitcher can get injured picking up his children. Should he no longer be allowed to pick up his children? Think about it.
You find pitchers hitting boring. I find the AL boring. Getting on base (hits, walks), moving the runners (hits, steals, sac flies, sac bunts), pinch hitting, pinch running... all of this is more exciting than waiting around for the big homer. The DH lessens the game of baseball.
Oh, and way to derail a thread. Just wanted to let Cardinals fans know that I'm sorry that he got injured. The Rangers had so many injuries last year that it just decimated their season. And there is no DH in the American League. Injuries happen, but is not a reason that pitchers shouldn't bat.
Get rid of the DH. IMO it just waters down the game. Takes so many things out of the coaches hands. Pitchers are players, just like the other 8 guys.
Holy crap, how can I be accused of cherry picking when I presented one article for each side? By suggesting pitchers shouldn't be allowed to pick up their children, you not only went down the slippery slope, but you went over the cliff. So yes, you nailed it, that's exactly what I think should happen.
You act as if the AL never steals, hits sac flies, pinch runs/hits, or moves runners over. The KC Royals nearly won it all last year doing exactly those same things. This isn't the 90's any longer. HR's don't come that easy. All teams are finding different ways to win, regardless of league, and many of them in the AL are doing exactly the things you say you enjoy about the game. They are just saving the fans from having to watch an unqualified hitter make a nearly guaranteed out. As I stated originally, pitchers getting injured at the plate is one of many reasons they shouldn't be up there.
It takes two to tango, buddy. You had every opportunity to stop replying at any time if you wanted to.
Love the DH, but I love offense. If I didn't, I'd become a soccer fan. Nothing more brutal than watching most pitchers try to hit, IMO.
Seriously. It was out of control. We are going to need Carlos Martinez to grow up fast, along with Marco Gonzalez. Wacha was scuffling last night against a weak Phils team, but I am not worried about him. I would love to see a Cole Hamels on this squad, but he is set to make 23 mil a year for the next few years, and that's not how the Redbirds roll.
The Cardinals print money and can easily afford Hamels. His contract is reasonable if you look at what the projections will be for the FA pitchers this coming winter. Cards will need an ace for the postseason, especially with the young pitchers on an innings count.
Hamels is the 6th highest paid pitcher in MLB, Waino the 13th. I would love nothing more than to have Hamels, but like I said, that's not generally how the Cardinals roll. I dont like that kind of money tied to 2 pitchers either......but they will need to make a move without question. Would you be willing to part with Marco Gonzalez and Piscotty for Hamels? Because thats what it will take. Likely more.