Was there any real reason not to choose Vicksburg as the capital of Mississippi?

[OG Goat Holder]

I went down a rabbit hole reading about this last night, and now I'm thinking about the missed opportunities, as usual. This, to me, sounds like our most fatal flaw, rather than many of the other things we blame.

Seems that pre-1820, Natchez was the center of operations, and that the formation of MS was going to be what it was, separation from Georgia/Louisiana then Alabama. So you lose out on the major ports, by New Orleans already being out, then you separate yourself from Mobile. That was dumb, but hey, at least you've got some coastline. Then, understandably, they wanted a more centralized location for the capital of the newly-formed state. So they start in the central MS swamps and head down the Pearl River and eventually settle on the first bluff they find. But here's the thing - river travel along the Mississippi was what was pushing growth at the time.......so why did we choose the Jackson area? Why not just make it easy on ourselves and choose Vicksburg, which had already been developed on high ground? I get that there may have been some pushback from Natchez, but come on, you're not really talking about that big of a geographical difference, but a HUGE difference in potential of development.

Civil War would have decimated it, but that happened anyway. So nothing really changed there. And there still would have been racial strife, as there was everywhere. And yeah, we would have continued to make dumb decisions. Ole Miss was located in Oxford because it was rural, whatever. Then of course, the split from the rich and poor, Ole Miss and MSU. And would we have had the forethought at that time to locate MSU in or around Vicksburg? Maybe, maybe not, but there would have been some pressure I would think, being right there by the Delta.

Then....I'm betting the interstate would have come through Vicksburg, down through Port Gibson, Natchez, and probably to Baton Rouge. Cheaper than crossing Pontchartrain.

I know River commerce dried up, but I think with those bones - a capital, a major university, etc., with the River tourism that could have opened up.....geez, what a mistake. Jackson gonna Jackson.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Well, it was in Enterprise/Stonewall at one time, why not Hot Coffee? SoSo?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

And then I find this, where we ALMOST corrected that mistake, after the fact: https://vicksburgnews.com/how-vicksburg-almost-became-the-capitol-of-mississippi/#google_vignette

But, our legislators were too vain to see the advantages, because they didn't get wined and dined in the actual courthouse, due to yellow fever.

Sounds familiar.

 

[dawgstudent]

Vicksburg also missed the boat where there as an opportunity for the international airport to be built between Jackson and Vicksburg. From what I heard as rumor, the city wanted to remain smaller in the late 1950's so they didn't push for it.

 

[L4Dawg]

Why not put it up around Carthage? That would have been closer to the center of the state. It's a long way from NE MS to Jackson, even today.

 

[maroontide06]

Columbia was also a temporary state capital from 1821-1822. What if that had become a permanent thing?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Vicksburg also missed the boat where there as an opportunity for the international airport to be built between Jackson and Vicksburg. From what I heard as rumor, the city wanted to remain smaller in the late 1950's so they didn't push for it.

Pretty much every decision the state made for about 150 years after the Civil War was a bad one.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Why not put it up around Carthage? That would have been closer to the center of the state. It's a long way from NE MS to Jackson, even today.

Swamp. Kosciusko is the dead center of the state, and same issue.

I am not exactly sure where you'd have to go to get completely out of the swampy river area, maybe up around Carroll County? That's if you're trying to be central.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Noxapater?

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Vicksburg also missed the boat where there as an opportunity for the international airport to be built between Jackson and Vicksburg. From what I heard as rumor, the city wanted to remain smaller in the late 1950's so they didn't push for it.

My understanding was they got greedy and wanted it closer to Vicksburg than the plan showed. So Jackson went the other direction.

however that would have been good had it ended up around Edwards. Big black could have been made more navigable and became air/waterway port and would have Likely grown Vicksburg and Clinton closer together expanding those cities closer to each other. Bolton likely grows as well.

too many towns in Mississippi thought like that though. I remember small town I'm from being told the council and mayor decided not to bring a Walmart distribution center because they wanted to keep the town small and no extra traffic etc. screw the jobs and all that for small town folks and added revenue for the town

And they wonder why so many of us moved away. Granted a lot of people moved out that way looking to buy a piece of land from Jackson metro area, but lot of people left just because there was nothing there for them.

 

[Maroon13]

The decision was made to place the capital in Jackson because of the Natchez trace and Pearl River. However it looks to me that the Pearl river isn't navigable. As we all know the Natchez trace became a state park instead of thoroughfare.

With that said, I think the choice for Jackson was the correct choice as it is centrally located. Considering we had two lane highways all over the state until the 90s.

 

[L4Dawg]

My understanding was they got greedy and wanted it closer to Vicksburg than the plan showed. So Jackson went the other direction.

however that would have been good had it ended up around Edwards. Big black could have been made more navigable and became air/waterway port and would have Likely grown Vicksburg and Clinton closer together expanding those cities closer to each other. Bolton likely grows as well.

too many towns in Mississippi thought like that though. I remember small town I'm from being told the council and mayor decided not to bring a Walmart distribution center because they wanted to keep the town small and no extra traffic etc. screw the jobs and all that for small town folks and added revenue for the town

And they wonder why so many of us moved away. Granted a lot of people moved out that way looking to buy a piece of land from Jackson metro area, but lot of people left just because there was nothing there for them.

The biggest reason for Mississippi being the way it is is geography and history. Our soil is great in spots, but only in spots. The powers that were in Mississippi at the time that the current American cities were developing were married to cotton agriculture. To be honest that is what the good soil here is best for, cotton. Our only other really abundant natural resource was and is timber. Neither of those two by themselves lead to the development large amounts of industry. We had no industrial scale water power at the time, no fall line here. We also had no real supply of coal in state. That meant that the power needed during the early industrialization of America just wasn't readily and cheaply available in Mississippi. We also back then had no deep water port at all. We still don't really. Even if we had had great leadership back then I don't think that kind of thing would have been easily overcome.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The decision was made to place the capital in Jackson because of the Natchez trace and Pearl River. However it looks to me that the Pearl river isn't navigable. As we all know the Natchez trace became a state park instead of thoroughfare.

With that said, I think the choice for Jackson was the correct choice as it is centrally located. Considering we had two lane highways all over the state until the 90s.

It wasn't the Pearl, but yes the Trace definitely played into it. But again, using man-made infrastructure as rationale is dumb because you can just connect at any point, plus Vicksburg isn't far from Jackson and on far better land with a better location. Vicksburg was a river city too so they could made a spur from there to the Trace and transported things. Wasn't anything but a wagon trail anyway.

Nothing about Jackson makes sense, from any logical standpoint. Vicksburg gives you the best of all worlds.

The biggest reason for Mississippi being the way it is is geography and history. Our soil is great in spots, but only in spots. The powers that were in Mississippi at the time that the current American cities were developing were married to cotton agriculture. To be honest that is what the good soil here is best for, cotton. Our only other really abundant natural resource was and is timber. Neither of those two by themselves lead to the development large amounts of industry. We had no industrial scale water power at the time, no fall line here. We also had no real supply of coal in state. That meant that the power needed during the early industrialization of America just wasn't readily and cheaply available in Mississippi. We also back then had no deep water port at all. We still don't really. Even if we had had great leadership back then I don't think that kind of thing would have been easily overcome.

This is correct, but that river location, plus the combination of the capital and a university, likely would have given us the best change to have a thriving urban area, thus attract jobs/people/etc. right now and not be losing the majority of our young people to the brain drain.

MS is rural, always has been, and always has been based in agriculture. That's fine and likely won't ever change. But you have to have that central urban area, or you get left behind. Kind of like college sports - you can have all the planning and coaching and you want, but you at least have to have a LITTLE money to survive.

 

[thatsbaseball]

The biggest reason for Mississippi being the way it is is geography and history. Our soil is great in spots, but only in spots. The powers that were in Mississippi at the time that the current American cities were developing were married to cotton agriculture. To be honest that is what the good soil here is best for, cotton. Our only other really abundant natural resource was and is timber. Neither of those two by themselves lead to the development large amounts of industry. We had no industrial scale water power at the time, no fall line here. We also had no real supply of coal in state. That meant that the power needed during the early industrialization of America just wasn't readily and cheaply available in Mississippi. We also back then had no deep water port at all. We still don't really. Even if we had had great leadership back then I don't think that kind of thing would have been easily overcome.

Everything you said is correct but as the decades slip by I sometimes wonder if one day Mississippi's abundance of space, lack of population centers and industrial development won't make it one of the most desirable places in the country to live. I was fortunate enough to experience the country when we had 100,000,000 fewer people just 40 years ago. Things are getting uncomfortably over crowded fast in many places for many people.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Things might have been different for places like Jackson and Memphis if it wasn’t for the yellow fever epidemics.

And yes I do agree Jackson as the capital at the time didn’t really make much sense but it might have worked out fine without other circumstances like yellow fever.

It completely changed the trajectory of Memphis for sure. Memphis without that devastating outbreak may look like Atlanta now.

 

[mstateglfr]

I went down a rabbit hole reading about this last night, and now I'm thinking about the missed opportunities, as usual. This, to me, sounds like our most fatal flaw, rather than many of the other things we blame.

Out of all the flaws the state of Mississippi has had over the last 200 years, you think this is the most fatal of them?
Well that is certainly a unique take on things.

Seems that pre-1820, Natchez was the center of operations, and that the formation of MS was going to be what it was, separation from Georgia/Louisiana then Alabama. So you lose out on the major ports, by New Orleans already being out, then you separate yourself from Mobile. That was dumb, but hey, at least you've got some coastline. Then, understandably, they wanted a more centralized location for the capital of the newly-formed state. So they start in the central MS swamps and head down the Pearl River and eventually settle on the first bluff they find. But here's the thing - river travel along the Mississippi was what was pushing growth at the time.......so why did we choose the Jackson area? Why not just make it easy on ourselves and choose Vicksburg, which had already been developed on high ground? I get that there may have been some pushback from Natchez, but come on, you're not really talking about that big of a geographical difference, but a HUGE difference in potential of development.

Its 40mi from Jackson to Vicksburg. What 'huge' difference in potential would there have been?
Missouri's Capital isnt close to being its largest metro or economic hub. Illinois' Capital isnt close to being its largest metro or economic hub. California's Capital isnt close to being its largest metro or economic hub. Alabama's Capital isnt close to being its largest metro or economic hub.
I am not sure why you think Mississippi's Capital needed to be placed in the city that had high economic activity(river shipping) 200 years ago, or why not doing so is the state's most fatal flaw.

Civil War would have decimated it, but that happened anyway. So nothing really changed there. And there still would have been racial strife, as there was everywhere. And yeah, we would have continued to make dumb decisions.

'Strife' is phrasing it mildly. At least you recognize more dumb decisions would have happened.

Ole Miss was located in Oxford because it was rural, whatever. Then of course, the split from the rich and poor, Ole Miss and MSU. And would we have had the forethought at that time to locate MSU in or around Vicksburg? Maybe, maybe not, but there would have been some pressure I would think, being right there by the Delta.

Why would there have been pressure to put MSU in/around Vicksburg or in the Delta? Jackson is only 40mi from Vicksburg and MSU wasnt put anywhere near Jackson, even though there was Ag land all around Jackson when MSU was established. And if anywhere in the state was up for consideration when deciding where to place MSU, then the Delta was considered back then. So why would there have been pressure to put it in/around Vicksburg and the Delta, had Vicksburg been the Capital?
Hopefully you can see the disconnect here.

Then....I'm betting the interstate would have come through Vicksburg, down through Port Gibson, Natchez, and probably to Baton Rouge. Cheaper than crossing Pontchartrain.

Are you talking about I55? If so, it doesnt cross the lake, it runs along the west side of the lake. Also, thats down in another state, so whats it have to do with Mississippi?
If you arent talking about I55, what are you talking about and why would routing it thru the MS towns you mention be 'better' than what we have now?

I know River commerce dried up, but I think with those bones - a capital, a major university, etc., with the River tourism that could have opened up.....geez, what a mistake. Jackson gonna Jackson.

Helluva a conclusion to confidently draw, when so many assumptions are made to get to that conclusion.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Everything you said is correct but as the decades slip by I sometimes wonder if one day Mississippi's abundance of space, lack of population centers and industrial development won't make it one of the most desirable places in the country to live. I was fortunate enough to experience the country when we had 100,000,000 fewer people just 40 years ago. Things are getting uncomfortably over crowded fast in many places for many people.

I thought a lot about this during COVID, I wondered if that combined with internet access would make what you said a reality.

It may one day, like you said, but I think in our lifetimes, it's the towns on the 1-2 hour periphery of the major population centers that will benefit. People want space, but I don't know if they want land in the middle of nowhere, unless they have the necessary money to maintain it. And they still want amenities. Basically, commutes are now longer because people aren't going into offices as much.

 

[thatsbaseball]

"But you have to have that central urban area, or you get left behind"

Based on what we currently see happening in the large "central urban areas" , "getting left behind" is going to be something many (not all or even a majority) will be looking for going forward.

 

[Dawgg]

I mean... it's easy to dunk on Jackson, but I don't know that Vicksburg would handle being the state's capitol any better than Jackson has. If Vicksburg had a similar growth and became the state's quasi-metro area, they could see the same levels of crime, poverty, and violence that Jackson has seen. What's the difference between the two besides casinos? I dunno.

 

[CoastTrash]

Slight thread high jack but really interesting to me that Vicksburg was not really considered as a location for MSU.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Swamp. Kosciusko is the dead center of the state, and same issue.

I am not exactly sure where you'd have to go to get completely out of the swampy river area, maybe up around Carroll County? That's if you're trying to be central.

We put the capital of the whole US of 17ing A in the middle of a swamp. Mississippi is too good to do the same?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I mean... it's easy to dunk on Jackson, but I don't know that Vicksburg would handle being the state's capitol any better than Jackson has. If Vicksburg had a similar growth and became the state's quasi-metro area, they could see the same levels of crime, poverty, and violence that Jackson has seen. What's the difference between the two besides casinos? I dunno.

To me it's about the consolidation of resources, and each decision building on the next. Like I said earlier, development probably comes quicker in a city with an amenity like the major river. Add the capital to that - which, in MS, due to lack of other urban areas, is not only the governmental center of the state, but the business center as well. Then add a university to that? We'd probably have a decent urban city there by now.

That's really where my mind goes with this......what would have been best for MSU, and what would have allowed Mississippi to possibly not be the worst of everything.

We put the capital of the whole US of 17ing A in the middle of a swamp. Mississippi is too good to do the same?

There are dynamics in play in the nation's capital, that don't really apply to the poorest state in said nation. But I mean obviously we tried it and it's not working out too well. And DC is on the water. Jackson is not. The more I think about this, that was a dumb post Perd.

 

[mstateglfr]

To me it's about the consolidation of resources, and each decision building on the next. Like I said earlier, development probably comes quicker in a city with an amenity like the major river. Add the capital to that - which, in MS, due to lack of other urban areas, is not only the governmental center of the state, but the business center as well. Then add a university to that? We'd probably have a decent urban city there by now.

That's really where my mind goes with this......what would have been best for MSU, and what would have allowed Mississippi to possibly not be the worst of everything.

Going 200 years back in time and having Vicskburg be the Capital, or not having Jackson be the Capital, is not the answer to Mississippi not being the worst of everything.
These towns are 40mi away, its not like we are talking about the coast vs Memphis metro here- only 40mi separates reality from what you claim would have changed everything. And your reasoning for why everything would have changes is based on a lot of reaching.

You think the Capital not being in Vicksburg is the fatal flaw here, even though...
- the state took a losing position in the war and was decimated as a result.
- citizens in the state actively and proudly terrorized, abused, and killed other citizens for simply existing as they are.
- the state refused to equally/fully fund education for many of its own children.
- the state has continually refused to invest in the health of its citizens through countless opportunities and ways.
- cities continually pushed away economic opportunities for many reasons.
- the state as well as cities largely refused to hold accountable those who terrorized, abused, and killed its own citizens for simply existing as they are.
- citizens with means created their own schools when they were finally forced to send their children to school with children that had a different color skin.



Over the last 200 years the state has had countless opportunities to change the popular national narrative and almost always has only further cemented the narrative.
Mississippi still doesnt want to fully invest in the health of its citizens thru complete and convenient healthcare for those that can as well as those that cant afford it.
Mississippi is still very proud to be known as a state where not everyone can feel comfortable simply existing as they are.
Even though the state has a high rate of single-parent households, Mississippi still wont help its citizens more easily or fully participate in the workforce or climb the socioeconomic ladder by providing statewide universal education, free/reduced daycare costs, or increased daycare locations.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but that was a really low bar to clear.


There is no reason to think all this would be different if the Capital were 40mi west of where it is now.

 

[Anon1704414204]

I went down a rabbit hole reading about this last night, and now I'm thinking about the missed opportunities, as usual. This, to me, sounds like our most fatal flaw, rather than many of the other things we blame.

Seems that pre-1820, Natchez was the center of operations, and that the formation of MS was going to be what it was, separation from Georgia/Louisiana then Alabama. So you lose out on the major ports, by New Orleans already being out, then you separate yourself from Mobile. That was dumb, but hey, at least you've got some coastline. Then, understandably, they wanted a more centralized location for the capital of the newly-formed state. So they start in the central MS swamps and head down the Pearl River and eventually settle on the first bluff they find. But here's the thing - river travel along the Mississippi was what was pushing growth at the time.......so why did we choose the Jackson area? Why not just make it easy on ourselves and choose Vicksburg, which had already been developed on high ground? I get that there may have been some pushback from Natchez, but come on, you're not really talking about that big of a geographical difference, but a HUGE difference in potential of development.

Civil War would have decimated it, but that happened anyway. So nothing really changed there. And there still would have been racial strife, as there was everywhere. And yeah, we would have continued to make dumb decisions. Ole Miss was located in Oxford because it was rural, whatever. Then of course, the split from the rich and poor, Ole Miss and MSU. And would we have had the forethought at that time to locate MSU in or around Vicksburg? Maybe, maybe not, but there would have been some pressure I would think, being right there by the Delta.

Then....I'm betting the interstate would have come through Vicksburg, down through Port Gibson, Natchez, and probably to Baton Rouge. Cheaper than crossing Pontchartrain.

I know River commerce dried up, but I think with those bones - a capital, a major university, etc., with the River tourism that could have opened up.....geez, what a mistake. Jackson gonna Jackson.

I'm not knowledgeable enough on things like this to argue one way or the other but I honestly enjoyed your post as I don't typically read the long ones in their entirety. Interesting subject.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Put the Capital in Tupelo.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Going 200 years back in time and having Vicskburg be the Capital, or not having Jackson be the Capital, is not the answer to Mississippi not being the worst of everything.
These towns are 40mi away, its not like we are talking about the coast vs Memphis metro here- only 40mi separates reality from what you claim would have changed everything. And your reasoning for why everything would have changes is based on a lot of reaching.

You think the Capital not being in Vicksburg is the fatal flaw here, even though...
- the state took a losing position in the war and was decimated as a result.
- citizens in the state actively and proudly terrorized, abused, and killed other citizens for simply existing as they are.
- the state refused to equally/fully fund education for many of its own children.
- the state has continually refused to invest in the health of its citizens through countless opportunities and ways.
- cities continually pushed away economic opportunities for many reasons.
- the state as well as cities largely refused to hold accountable those who terrorized, abused, and killed its own citizens for simply existing as they are.
- citizens with means created their own schools when they were finally forced to send their children to school with children that had a different color skin.



Over the last 200 years the state has had countless opportunities to change the popular national narrative and almost always has only further cemented the narrative.
Mississippi still doesnt want to fully invest in the health of its citizens thru complete and convenient healthcare for those that can as well as those that cant afford it.
Mississippi is still very proud to be known as a state where not everyone can feel comfortable simply existing as they are.
Even though the state has a high rate of single-parent households, Mississippi still wont help its citizens more easily or fully participate in the workforce or climb the socioeconomic ladder by providing statewide universal education, free/reduced daycare costs, or increased daycare locations.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but that was a really low bar to clear.


There is no reason to think all this would be different if the Capital were 40mi west of where it is now.

Shut up. I am not talking about fixing the state's (or anyone else's) racial issues. I am talking about single, realistic decisions that could have significantly changed things, in the world as we know it.

 

[3407Dewey]

I went down a rabbit hole reading about this last night, and now I'm thinking about the missed opportunities, as usual. This, to me, sounds like our most fatal flaw, rather than many of the other things we blame.

Seems that pre-1820, Natchez was the center of operations, and that the formation of MS was going to be what it was, separation from Georgia/Louisiana then Alabama. So you lose out on the major ports, by New Orleans already being out, then you separate yourself from Mobile. That was dumb, but hey, at least you've got some coastline. Then, understandably, they wanted a more centralized location for the capital of the newly-formed state. So they start in the central MS swamps and head down the Pearl River and eventually settle on the first bluff they find. But here's the thing - river travel along the Mississippi was what was pushing growth at the time.......so why did we choose the Jackson area? Why not just make it easy on ourselves and choose Vicksburg, which had already been developed on high ground? I get that there may have been some pushback from Natchez, but come on, you're not really talking about that big of a geographical difference, but a HUGE difference in potential of development.

Civil War would have decimated it, but that happened anyway. So nothing really changed there. And there still would have been racial strife, as there was everywhere. And yeah, we would have continued to make dumb decisions. Ole Miss was located in Oxford because it was rural, whatever. Then of course, the split from the rich and poor, Ole Miss and MSU. And would we have had the forethought at that time to locate MSU in or around Vicksburg? Maybe, maybe not, but there would have been some pressure I would think, being right there by the Delta.

Then....I'm betting the interstate would have come through Vicksburg, down through Port Gibson, Natchez, and probably to Baton Rouge. Cheaper than crossing Pontchartrain.

I know River commerce dried up, but I think with those bones - a capital, a major university, etc., with the River tourism that could have opened up.....geez, what a mistake. Jackson gonna Jackson.

In 1995, I did my senior historiography paper at State on the question: Why didn't Vicksburg become the metropolitan area that Memphis did? Even after the Civil War, Vicksburg had more going for it economically than Memphis. All the recently cleared land in the Delta was about to produce more cotton than anywhere else and it would have been easier for it to go through markets in Vicksburg than going upriver to Memphis. My answer, as best as I could deduce from the records, was that it was simply lack of vision on the part of the political class in Mississippi. Basically, the "good ol' boy" system has been around for generations. No one wanted to take the necessary risks to invest in capitalizing on the opportunities.

 

[Anon1704414204]

Put the Capital in Tupelo.

Dat you Bosephus?

 

[The Cooterpoot]

The old capital building was built next to the coliseum, which was built to plug the volcano that will sink MS into the gulf if it blows. It's like the tub drain of MS.*

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Shut up. I am not talking about fixing the state's (or anyone else's) racial issues. I am talking about single, realistic decisions that could have significantly changed things, in the world as we know it.

Here’s a problem about that idea:

The History of Mississippi is by and large a story of Failure.

Bad decisions are a constant throughout Mississippi’s history.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Going 200 years back in time and having Vicskburg be the Capital, or not having Jackson be the Capital, is not the answer to Mississippi not being the worst of everything.
These towns are 40mi away, its not like we are talking about the coast vs Memphis metro here- only 40mi separates reality from what you claim would have changed everything. And your reasoning for why everything would have changes is based on a lot of reaching.

You think the Capital not being in Vicksburg is the fatal flaw here, even though...
- the state took a losing position in the war and was decimated as a result.
- citizens in the state actively and proudly terrorized, abused, and killed other citizens for simply existing as they are.
- the state refused to equally/fully fund education for many of its own children.
- the state has continually refused to invest in the health of its citizens through countless opportunities and ways.
- cities continually pushed away economic opportunities for many reasons.
- the state as well as cities largely refused to hold accountable those who terrorized, abused, and killed its own citizens for simply existing as they are.
- citizens with means created their own schools when they were finally forced to send their children to school with children that had a different color skin.



Over the last 200 years the state has had countless opportunities to change the popular national narrative and almost always has only further cemented the narrative.
Mississippi still doesnt want to fully invest in the health of its citizens thru complete and convenient healthcare for those that can as well as those that cant afford it.
Mississippi is still very proud to be known as a state where not everyone can feel comfortable simply existing as they are.
Even though the state has a high rate of single-parent households, Mississippi still wont help its citizens more easily or fully participate in the workforce or climb the socioeconomic ladder by providing statewide universal education, free/reduced daycare costs, or increased daycare locations.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but that was a really low bar to clear.


There is no reason to think all this would be different if the Capital were 40mi west of where it is now.

https://247wallst.com/special-report/2022/02/15/the-worst-states-for-black-americans-2/

 

[Howiefeltersnstch]

The decision was made to place the capital in Jackson because of the Natchez trace and Pearl River. However it looks to me that the Pearl river isn't navigable. As we all know the Natchez trace became a state park instead of thoroughfare.

With that said, I think the choice for Jackson was the correct choice as it is centrally located. Considering we had two lane highways all over the state until the 90s.

Years ago it was navigable. A steam paddleship use to come past Carthage delivering goods. Obviously that has changed and with the Rez damn could never return.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

https://247wallst.com/special-report/2022/02/15/the-worst-states-for-black-americans-2/

Glfr ain’t gonna like that #3

 

[mstateglfr]

Shut up. I am not talking about fixing the state's (or anyone else's) racial issues. I am talking about single, realistic decisions that could have significantly changed things, in the world as we know it.

Haha, well here is one single decision the state could have done- dont be racist. But yeah, that wouldnt have been realistic.

Other single decisions that could have happened which would have significantly changed things more than what you are claiming-
- Dont secede.
- Protect citizens.
- Prosecute those who terrorized, abused, or killed others for simply existing and living.
- Consistently invest in healthcare in ways that werent done.
- Consistently invest in education in equal and equitable ways.


Any of those single issues would have changed things way more than what you suggest.
Are any of my suggestions realistic? Well, I can say that are no less realistic than your hypothetical. I mean come on now- you are saying my comments arent realistic, but the thread is about what might have happened if a state's 17ing Capital and major university were located elsewhere.
What is realistic is not part of this discussion.

 

[johnson86-1]

Going 200 years back in time and having Vicskburg be the Capital, or not having Jackson be the Capital, is not the answer to Mississippi not being the worst of everything.
These towns are 40mi away, its not like we are talking about the coast vs Memphis metro here- only 40mi separates reality from what you claim would have changed everything. And your reasoning for why everything would have changes is based on a lot of reaching.

You think the Capital not being in Vicksburg is the fatal flaw here, even though...
- the state took a losing position in the war and was decimated as a result.
- citizens in the state actively and proudly terrorized, abused, and killed other citizens for simply existing as they are.
- the state refused to equally/fully fund education for many of its own children.
- the state has continually refused to invest in the health of its citizens through countless opportunities and ways.
- cities continually pushed away economic opportunities for many reasons.
- the state as well as cities largely refused to hold accountable those who terrorized, abused, and killed its own citizens for simply existing as they are.
- citizens with means created their own schools when they were finally forced to send their children to school with children that had a different color skin.



Over the last 200 years the state has had countless opportunities to change the popular national narrative and almost always has only further cemented the narrative.
Mississippi still doesnt want to fully invest in the health of its citizens thru complete and convenient healthcare for those that can as well as those that cant afford it.
Mississippi is still very proud to be known as a state where not everyone can feel comfortable simply existing as they are.
Even though the state has a high rate of single-parent households, Mississippi still wont help its citizens more easily or fully participate in the workforce or climb the socioeconomic ladder by providing statewide universal education, free/reduced daycare costs, or increased daycare locations.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but that was a really low bar to clear.


There is no reason to think all this would be different if the Capital were 40mi west of where it is now.

All of those things are more or less true for other Southeastern states too though. And they've all basically done better than Mississippi, partly by being slightly less stupid, but mostly just by dumb luck of having good resources (ports, iron deposits, coal, oil & gas, coastline, etc.). Having one decent city would be a big help for Mississippi. Would the capitol, plus river trade, plus a major university give us a major city? I'm guessing it'd probably look something like Baton Rouge? Hopefully a little cleaner and safer but probably not. But yes, probably better than Jackson for what's that worth. IF MSU had been put there presumably they would have been able to keep a stronger presence in South Mississippi and not let LSU have such a strong presence. So an improvement but probably not going to do much other than better position MS compared to other southeastern states. But probably not likely to create an atlanta or Nashville in Mississippi.

 

[Howiefeltersnstch]

Swamp. Kosciusko is the dead center of the state, and same issue.

I am not exactly sure where you'd have to go to get completely out of the swampy river area, maybe up around Carroll County? That's if you're trying to be central.

9 miles W/NW of Carthage is actually the geographical center of the state. Not Kosciusko.

 

[mstateglfr]

https://247wallst.com/special-report/2022/02/15/the-worst-states-for-black-americans-2/

Care to use your words and explain why you posted this in response to my post about things Mississippi could have done that would have been more impactful than moving the Capital 40mi west of where it is?

Glfr ain’t gonna like that #3

Statistics are fun. I dont like or dislike that opinion article based on its ranking.
Looks like the poverty rate for Black adults is basically the same in Iowa as Mississippi. And it looks like the median household income is 4.6% higher in Iowa. Unemployment rate is slightly better in Iowa, but pretty much a wash.

For what its worth, this says median household income for African Americans in Iowa is $41,436 in 2021. That is 29% higher than what the 247wallst link from '22 says.



Regardless though, there is definitely significant room for improvement when it comes to education and job opportunities. A rising tide lifts all boats, and whatnot.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

I went down a rabbit hole reading about this last night, and now I'm thinking about the missed opportunities, as usual. This, to me, sounds like our most fatal flaw, rather than many of the other things we blame.

Seems that pre-1820, Natchez was the center of operations, and that the formation of MS was going to be what it was, separation from Georgia/Louisiana then Alabama. So you lose out on the major ports, by New Orleans already being out, then you separate yourself from Mobile. That was dumb, but hey, at least you've got some coastline. Then, understandably, they wanted a more centralized location for the capital of the newly-formed state. So they start in the central MS swamps and head down the Pearl River and eventually settle on the first bluff they find. But here's the thing - river travel along the Mississippi was what was pushing growth at the time.......so why did we choose the Jackson area? Why not just make it easy on ourselves and choose Vicksburg, which had already been developed on high ground? I get that there may have been some pushback from Natchez, but come on, you're not really talking about that big of a geographical difference, but a HUGE difference in potential of development.

Civil War would have decimated it, but that happened anyway. So nothing really changed there. And there still would have been racial strife, as there was everywhere. And yeah, we would have continued to make dumb decisions. Ole Miss was located in Oxford because it was rural, whatever. Then of course, the split from the rich and poor, Ole Miss and MSU. And would we have had the forethought at that time to locate MSU in or around Vicksburg? Maybe, maybe not, but there would have been some pressure I would think, being right there by the Delta.

Then....I'm betting the interstate would have come through Vicksburg, down through Port Gibson, Natchez, and probably to Baton Rouge. Cheaper than crossing Pontchartrain.

I know River commerce dried up, but I think with those bones - a capital, a major university, etc., with the River tourism that could have opened up.....geez, what a mistake. Jackson gonna Jackson.

It is never too late to just give up on Jackson and just build a new Capital Complex overlooking the river.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

All of those things are more or less true for other Southeastern states too though. And they've all basically done better than Mississippi, partly by being slightly less stupid, but mostly just by dumb luck of having good resources (ports, iron deposits, coal, oil & gas, coastline, etc.). Having one decent city would be a big help for Mississippi. Would the capitol, plus river trade, plus a major university give us a major city? I'm guessing it'd probably look something like Baton Rouge? Hopefully a little cleaner and safer but probably not. But yes, probably better than Jackson for what's that worth. IF MSU had been put there presumably they would have been able to keep a stronger presence in South Mississippi and not let LSU have such a strong presence. So an improvement but probably not going to do much other than better position MS compared to other southeastern states. But probably not likely to create an atlanta or Nashville in Mississippi.

Exactly. @mstateglfr is being a douche. Racism was much bigger than Mississippi, he knows that. And we aren't talking about Atlanta, simply talking about survival. His take is just a totally idiotic one. His pathetic, desperate tone in his replies tells the whole story. I'm really trying to not to give it attention, though I've already failed.

Good point about the other states being less stupid with more dumb luck.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It is never too late to just give up on Jackson and just build a new Capital Complex overlooking the river.

Volcano, floods, constant storms, straight-line winds and tornadoes...........somebody is trying to tell us something.......not to mention the clay jacks up all the foundations.