Somebody meaner than me please go to Arkansas next weekend and pound that midget Wes Johnson into the turf.
What a turd of a pitching coach he was.
What a turd of a pitching coach he was.
We really really don't have any pitching depth
- Thread starter bruiser.sixpack
- Start date
Only coaches who want to develop the pitching depth to manage the ridiculous regional format.
Another thing these 4 game series does... is allows us to schedule only four games a week during SEC play. We used to routinely play 5 games those weeks.
Yeah. I just think we put ourselves in a spot we dont have to be in against teams we should beat.
There doesnt appear to be a lot of coaches putting value in four game series other than cohen. Be interesting to see if cann keeps them once he has control of the sched.
There doesnt appear to be a lot of coaches putting value in four game series other than cohen. Be interesting to see if cann keeps them once he has control of the sched.
Cannizzaro commented to Jim that he did not like the 4 game weekend format, and would be glad when they get to 3 game weekends.
I thought Cohen scheduled these to eliminate the Tuesday/Wednesday midweek games that several teams, including Arkansas, still play. But I seem to remember him says It was also similar to the 4 team Regional format, with regards to playing up to 4 games in 3 days.
I thought Cohen scheduled these to eliminate the Tuesday/Wednesday midweek games that several teams, including Arkansas, still play. But I seem to remember him says It was also similar to the 4 team Regional format, with regards to playing up to 4 games in 3 days.
I know it is popular here to blame Wes Johnson
but do yall really think that these injuries were caused in the short time he was here. The most common factor to UCL tears is too much competitive pitching each year (average of 8 months per year) over an extended period of time. Do yall know what he teaches? A lot of his methods are the same as what Ron Wolforth teaches at his Ranch in Texas. Coach Johnson was an instructor at his ranch. I can tell you that the first thing they do at the ranch is identify where each pitcher has pain and look at his mechanics to determine what is causing the pain. Increased velocity is not the priority but it is a result of improved mechanics and better training. Correct mechanics and the training are to protect a pitcher from injury not to cause it. Yes a lot of what they teach is different than what traditionally taught but epidemic of UCL injuries is happening through out the country where the traditional methods are taught.
But hey its much cooler to blame him for all of our problems. And I realize that I am wasting my time.
but do yall really think that these injuries were caused in the short time he was here. The most common factor to UCL tears is too much competitive pitching each year (average of 8 months per year) over an extended period of time. Do yall know what he teaches? A lot of his methods are the same as what Ron Wolforth teaches at his Ranch in Texas. Coach Johnson was an instructor at his ranch. I can tell you that the first thing they do at the ranch is identify where each pitcher has pain and look at his mechanics to determine what is causing the pain. Increased velocity is not the priority but it is a result of improved mechanics and better training. Correct mechanics and the training are to protect a pitcher from injury not to cause it. Yes a lot of what they teach is different than what traditionally taught but epidemic of UCL injuries is happening through out the country where the traditional methods are taught.
But hey its much cooler to blame him for all of our problems. And I realize that I am wasting my time.
Probably not, but I believe Ark has had a couple guys go down this year too. It wasn't much of an issue with him at Dallas Baptist.
Between us and arkansas,We are now up to 8 pitchers in 15 months who spent signifcant time under him that had/will have TJ
Research also shows trevor
conn had tommy john after pitching under johnson at dallas baptist
Maybe its the greatest anomoly of our time
Research also shows trevor
conn had tommy john after pitching under johnson at dallas baptist
Maybe its the greatest anomoly of our time
Last edited by a moderator:
From ASMI, the institute founded by Dr James Andrews
During the past few years there has been an “epidemic” rise in the number of professional pitchers requiring ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction ("Tommy John surgery").[SUP]1[/SUP] This is like déjà vu, as a similar sharp rise was seen in adolescent pitchers near the turn of the century.[SUP]2,3[/SUP] These two rises are indeed connected; that is, today's pro pitcher in his 20’s was an adolescent pitcher a dozen years ago. Thus in many cases, the injury leading to Tommy John surgery in today's young pro pitchers actually began while they were adolescent amateurs.
During the past few years there has been an “epidemic” rise in the number of professional pitchers requiring ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction ("Tommy John surgery").[SUP]1[/SUP] This is like déjà vu, as a similar sharp rise was seen in adolescent pitchers near the turn of the century.[SUP]2,3[/SUP] These two rises are indeed connected; that is, today's pro pitcher in his 20’s was an adolescent pitcher a dozen years ago. Thus in many cases, the injury leading to Tommy John surgery in today's young pro pitchers actually began while they were adolescent amateurs.
I understand all that. But at the end of the day we are grossly disproportionate to
the rest of the country and to our recent past, both of which recruited these same
type adolescent arms.
Sounds like its just the greatest statistical anomoly of all time
the rest of the country and to our recent past, both of which recruited these same
type adolescent arms.
Sounds like its just the greatest statistical anomoly of all time
It's well past the point of incidental anomaly. One TJ per staff per year is about the average across the SEC -- and we are all signing kids with the same amount of wear and tear coming in. Wes Johnson has been directly tied to NINE blown out arms in the last 18 months, with a 10th having Woodruff surgery. Feel free to show me any other comparable pitching situation in all of college baseball history.
Cohen is quoted saying he does the 4 game formats for the fans. You get to see 4 games and a double header per weekend. I don't see a problem with it. If it weren't for the injuries it wouldn't matter.
And yes, it is possible to have to play 5 games in a 4 day span if you get put in the losers bracket.
I think we will be ok in a 3 game setting. I still think we will win our share of SEC games. Maybe we slide in a regional and get lucky like we did in 2007. After that we can survive with like 3 pitchers.
My understanding is that Wes does a lot of drills specifically focused on increasing a guy's velocity. Some of the weighted ball drills and other things he does to accomplish that would appear to put additional stress on the arm. You take guys that have had too much wear and tear on the arm already coming into college and then have them push their arm to increase velocity, well, that's just a really bad combination for a guy to keep his arm structurally in tact.
You realize that 4 months rest is what dr. Andrews require for rest each year? y
So your average 8 months out of 12 a year pitching actually defeats your argument on pitching too much. It's not the length of competitive ball that hurts arms. There's a ton of factors. Like Keegan James arm injury is being related to him getting hurt in football in high school. And wes Johnson is not the only velocity pitching coach killing arms. I've heard of several in the high school ranks that are teaching the same thing Johnson does and killing high school arms. Your arm is intended to throw as fast as your body was made for. You add stress to your arm tryin to throw faster then you are suppose to and you are going to have arm injuries
So your average 8 months out of 12 a year pitching actually defeats your argument on pitching too much. It's not the length of competitive ball that hurts arms. There's a ton of factors. Like Keegan James arm injury is being related to him getting hurt in football in high school. And wes Johnson is not the only velocity pitching coach killing arms. I've heard of several in the high school ranks that are teaching the same thing Johnson does and killing high school arms. Your arm is intended to throw as fast as your body was made for. You add stress to your arm tryin to throw faster then you are suppose to and you are going to have arm injuries
I guess me and Cohen are the only ones that like the four game format. To each his own I guess, but I like the fact that we get to see multiple teams on a weekend and it does force us to use our entire staff- it helps during regional time I guess, but maybe more importantly it allows guys like Trysten Barlow a chance to show what they can do. I can see where it's more difficult to manage especially with a staff that is short handed.
The other thing it does that I like is it allows us to play fewer OOC games midweek or games on Weds. What that does is it allows us to rest our guys some during the SEC portion of the schedule and allows us to work on things with the players. Having games on Weds. to me almost taxes your staff just as much because you have to go to a fifth starter for the Weds game so we're still going to start a guy like a Denver McQuary. Also, SEC double headers used to be a tradition at MSU, and we don't do those very often anymore but at least with the four game series we at least get those as double headers.
Maybe the issue is we just don't need to do three in the OOC portion before SEC play. Maybe just one or two would suffice. We've always played three games the last series every year under Cohen with this year being the only exception I can recall.
I keep hearing that eventually they are going to approve exhibition games for baseball like they do for other sports like basketball. I'm not sure what the limit would be if they do, but having a 4 game series with someone like Delta State or two D-2 schools on a weekend like we do with the current four game format would do essentially the same thing that we're doing now with less risk of a bad loss. I still wouldn't mind doing a 4 game series with two schools at least once a year. At the same time I am all for giving up a four game weekend or two to play a game in Biloxi and one in Pearl against an out of state team like Louisiana Tech.
The other thing it does that I like is it allows us to play fewer OOC games midweek or games on Weds. What that does is it allows us to rest our guys some during the SEC portion of the schedule and allows us to work on things with the players. Having games on Weds. to me almost taxes your staff just as much because you have to go to a fifth starter for the Weds game so we're still going to start a guy like a Denver McQuary. Also, SEC double headers used to be a tradition at MSU, and we don't do those very often anymore but at least with the four game series we at least get those as double headers.
Maybe the issue is we just don't need to do three in the OOC portion before SEC play. Maybe just one or two would suffice. We've always played three games the last series every year under Cohen with this year being the only exception I can recall.
I keep hearing that eventually they are going to approve exhibition games for baseball like they do for other sports like basketball. I'm not sure what the limit would be if they do, but having a 4 game series with someone like Delta State or two D-2 schools on a weekend like we do with the current four game format would do essentially the same thing that we're doing now with less risk of a bad loss. I still wouldn't mind doing a 4 game series with two schools at least once a year. At the same time I am all for giving up a four game weekend or two to play a game in Biloxi and one in Pearl against an out of state team like Louisiana Tech.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's probably some of being overworked in travel ball and maybe some of Wes.
A lot of the training stuff for pitchers is fairly new and because of that I think a lot of people are sort of learning what to do and also what not to do. Look at how far football training has come over the past 20 years and compare that to baseball in general.
The velocity thing isn't going to go away because there's too much money involved- guys that throw 100 MPH get paid more than guys that throw 92. And a lot of people are fine risking a surgery especially with a high success rate like Tommy John. So, I think it's really a matter of figuring out how to get people to that point physically where they can safely throw whatever their maximum potential velocity is. That probably means a LOT more core work and focus on mechanics early as opposed to arm work and as a result a more gradual process rather than "I showed up last month throwing 88 and now a month later I'm at 95." Everyone wants to get it quick too for obvious reasons.
Correct me if mistaken, but thought that Wes Johnson was at State for only the '16 season and left right after it was over. Seven arms in one year is unusual BUT it is truly an 'anomaly' unless more TJ surgeries show up for the hogs within the same one year amount of time.
Sorry to bust your bubble but one at a school, followed by seven, followed by one makes MSU the absolute definition of an 'anomaly.'
I am also a fan of the 4 game weekends. It gives essentially the entire pitching staff a chance to perform in real games. Some guys will do better than expected and some guys will do worse. Either way, the coaches have all season to address any individual issues they see. That's better than waiting until April to throw a guy out there in a midweek to see what he can do.
Look at Denver McQuary. He's a guy who probably would not have pitched much for us yet without the 4 game series. As it is, he gets a start and looks pretty solid. With Cyr struggling, the Sunday slot is wide open. Who knows, he may end up there or playing a major bullpen role, once SEC season starts.
Also, if you look at the entire schedule, we play 4 THU,FRI,SAT SEC series. That makes it tougher to try to schedule multiple midweek games. How would it be be better to put off playing games wedged between a FRI, SAT, SUN series and a THU,FRI, SAT series?
Look at Denver McQuary. He's a guy who probably would not have pitched much for us yet without the 4 game series. As it is, he gets a start and looks pretty solid. With Cyr struggling, the Sunday slot is wide open. Who knows, he may end up there or playing a major bullpen role, once SEC season starts.
Also, if you look at the entire schedule, we play 4 THU,FRI,SAT SEC series. That makes it tougher to try to schedule multiple midweek games. How would it be be better to put off playing games wedged between a FRI, SAT, SUN series and a THU,FRI, SAT series?
Seriously?
If he has one, maybe two, more arms let go -- he will never coach anywhere in college baseball again including at Arkansas. He's to the point now where he can afford to suck, but he can't afford to keep going down the path he has been on.
Too much too fast is what is blowing out these arms. His idea in theory is a good one -- but it's not something that should be implemented overnight as he attempted at MSU and appears to be again attempting at Arkansas. It's a multi-year cultural shift in how you approach pitching.
As an aside... I have heard of pitchers having TJ surgery.... who really did not need it..... because they will throw faster after.
Which is totally stupid. I can't imagine it's the case, even the most idiotic of blowhard dads wouldn't do that. Not to mention the doctors would tell them differently.
Really .. That's NOT going to happen. Just another in the long line of pure BS statements. 25% of MLB 'active pitchers' have had TJ. LINK
Tommy John surgeries are ripping through baseball at a faster pace than ever before. Twenty-five percent of active MLB pitchers have had the procedure, which reconstructs a pitcher’s torn ulnar collateral ligament, as have 15 percent of current minor league pitchers. Last season was particularly distressing: More pitchers had the surgery in 2014 than in the entirety of the 1990s.
The trend shows no signs of slowing down. The latest pitcher to suffer major UCL damage is Yu Darvish. The Texas Rangers ace meets today with Dr. David Altchek, the Mets’ team physician and an expert in TJ surgery. Although no decision had been made at the time this post was published, the chatter leading up to today suggests that Darvish might soon become the next ace to go under the knife.
The reason guys throw harder after Tommy John is their UCL has been repaired and they aren't hurt anymore plus they have to do a lot of training to get back to where they were plus focus on things that they should have been before to prevent another Tommy John surgery.
I think what you are referring to is urban legend though. If that were true every single pitcher in whatever league you can think of would have had it by now.
Well yeah. He's inheriting already weak arms and his training is the final straw.
There's plenty of evidence that shows that torn/frayed UCLs can heal with proper rest. He made them throw weighted balls.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/10608...ryan-express-kept-rolling-after-elbow-injury/
I would be more willing to point the finger at Wes Johnson if MSU saw injuries up and down the roster last year.
Hughes, Small and Padgett all had their injuries during the season and immediately after in summer ball.
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