West>East: WHY?

[TreyScott_NC]

By the numbers all around with the exception of Tarboro, West have dominated in football compared to the East. Why? What’s the biggest difference?

I am from Snow Hill, (Greene Central) we have no football championship experience but plenty in other sports. Class of 03 I coached under the Great Jim Bob Bryant for 6 years, he exposed me to a lot. But why haven’t East caught up yet?

random stuff I see…
The turf fields are almost non-existent in the East, is that because of money? Or support in the program?

How many teams run an air raid out west, is it more of the norm? Do only East have the power run team with wing-t, tarboro T, etc

I don’t wanna sound naive I understand some teams in east have the turf, some in west have runs styles, but what else is it? Community? Coaching? Fill me in…

no trolling please let’s have healthy convos

 

[TreyScott_NC]

@Shelby Lion @Otis1144 @rams10 @BoltsUp @Chopper747_2.0 @swe98 @GrizzlyDevil @Deana_King @TGT2 @beamer24 @Crest Charger 02 @SHS LION

 

[HoeyMan79]

By the numbers all around with the exception of Tarboro, West have dominated in football compared to the East. Why? What’s the biggest difference?

I am from Snow Hill, (Greene Central) we have no football championship experience but plenty in other sports. Class of 03 I coached under the Great Jim Bob Bryant for 6 years, he exposed me to a lot. But why haven’t East caught up yet?

random stuff I see…
The turf fields are almost non-existent in the East, is that because of money? Or support in the program?

How many teams run an air raid out west, is it more of the norm? Do only East have the power run team with wing-t, tarboro T, etc

I don’t wanna sound naive I understand some teams in east have the turf, some in west have runs styles, but what else is it? Community? Coaching? Fill me in…

no trolling please let’s have healthy convos

I have thought about that in the past. I wonder how many square miles each school district covers and what is the population density in all districts. I wonder how that impacts the little league programs and younger kids development programs. A parent in a spread out system or more rural area may find it difficult to keep the kids in "football basics" learning environment. It is one thing to play football in the side yard with you brother and a couple of neighbors and something else entirely to be in a situation where there are fifty kids learning to play together. I know in Reidsville many kids in years past had played together on the same teams since early childhood.

 

[Shelby Lion]

By the numbers all around with the exception of Tarboro, West have dominated in football compared to the East. Why? What’s the biggest difference?

How many teams run an air raid out west, is it more of the norm? Do only East have the power run team with wing-t, tarboro T, etc

Yes sir, out west most teams run some sort of spread style....
A few exceptions like your mention of Tarboro around here is South Point, they are always successful running their Flexbbone ; They call red bone)... West Lincoln, North Lincoln and others run some wing and we ran the Flexbone until Lance Ware took over

We see spread passing so much most are used to defending it here, and some in West struggle with the Tarboro , South Point types because we ust dont see it as much

Flip that to the east A lot of running styles and most are used to defending that, and not passing

There are exceptions, of course like Kinston who throws it all over the place, Northeastern etc

It doesnt seem traditionally over a good number of years the west has had the easts number overall ...

Example in 2021 we had Wallace rose hill, we couoldnt stop their rush first half we just werent used to seeing it and they ran it exceptionally well, but they would admit they couldnt stop a nosebleed against out pass either... We finally got a couple stops and it snowballed on em

I also think the level of competition overall in the west is better and I am not trying to down the east.. But the Crest, Shelby, Burns, KM, Lincolnton, Maiden, East Lincolns, Reidsvilles, Mt Airys, Eastern randoplhs of the world are beating each other up every week helps tremendously when it comes playoff time
Just a couple thoughts, some may not agree

 

[HowerinJr]

By the numbers all around with the exception of Tarboro, West have dominated in football compared to the East. Why? What’s the biggest difference?

I am from Snow Hill, (Greene Central) we have no football championship experience but plenty in other sports. Class of 03 I coached under the Great Jim Bob Bryant for 6 years, he exposed me to a lot. But why haven’t East caught up yet?

random stuff I see…
The turf fields are almost non-existent in the East, is that because of money? Or support in the program?

How many teams run an air raid out west, is it more of the norm? Do only East have the power run team with wing-t, tarboro T, etc

I don’t wanna sound naive I understand some teams in east have the turf, some in west have runs styles, but what else is it? Community? Coaching? Fill me in…

no trolling please let’s have healthy convos

I’ve said it in other posts, Trey. It’s money. Go no further than Kinston vs Shelby. Lenoir Co. population is shrinking with an employed population of 22600. Cleveland County is growing and has 44000 employed population. Good coaches are men with families. Would you want your family to live in a growing area or an economically depressed area?

 

[TheJims]

The eastern part of the state has a larger group of economically distressed counties than the western part of the state. I think that plays a role in kids being able to play in suitable youth leagues early on and probably plays a role in these areas providing what these kids need to be successful. Lower income parents are less likely to have their kids involved in something mainly because they don't have the means for transportation, equipment, etc.

My guess is alot of kids in the east have never touched a football until they get to middle or high school.

I also think the western schools do a better job of developing linemen to fit power run games and passing attacks and don't rely on out athleting teams. Eastern teams also usually neglect special teams which I think plays a role.

Going back to the community aspect. There is alot of tradition in the west if you look at your schools like Crest, Shelby, Reidsville, Robbinsville, Murphy, Mount Airy, Swain, and even your schools like Hickory, Statesville, and Watauga. Those schools have been around a long time. I think you've had alot more consolidation down east and thats due to the economics of the area. How many Coastal Plains or Sandhills high schools have closed for consolidation in the last several years? West/East Montgomery, South Robeson, Williamston, Creswell, Plymouth, Riverside, South Creek, and Jamesville.

Plymouth, Williamston, and West Montgomery were good football programs that made and won a few state titles.

When it comes to the 7A and 8A schools, some in the west are just managing to play the portal game better than others.

 

[Shelby Lion]

The eastern part of the state has a larger group of economically distressed counties than the western part of the state. I think that plays a role in kids being able to play in suitable youth leagues early on and probably plays a role in these areas providing what these kids need to be successful. Lower income parents are less likely to have their kids involved in something mainly because they don't have the means for transportation, equipment, etc.

My guess is alot of kids in the east have never touched a football until they get to middle or high school.

I also think the western schools do a better job of developing linemen to fit power run games and passing attacks and don't rely on out athleting teams. Eastern teams also usually neglect special teams which I think plays a role.

Going back to the community aspect. There is alot of tradition in the west if you look at your schools like Crest, Shelby, Robbinsville, Murphy, Mount Airy, Swain, and even your schools like Hickory, Statesville, and Watauga. Those schools have been around a long time. I think you've had alot more consolidation down east and thats due to the economics of the area.

When it comes to the 7A and 8A schools, some in the west are just managing to play the portal game better than others.

GREAT points... good stuff here

 

[TheJims]

GREAT points... good stuff here

I added a few things related to consolidation in the eastern part of the state. Mainly just a list of a good amount of schools down east that have closed in the last 15 years or so.

 

[TarVikes1]

Not sure how it is in the west but community involvement in the east isn’t what it used to be. Shoot look at the run Tarboro has been on the last 20 years and even they don’t even have the support from the whole community they used to have. Like @HowerinJr has said before - almost all of the good paying jobs have that eastern nc used to have are gone.

 

[TreyScott_NC]

How much does 7 on 7 play a factor in the recent success? Considering there are literally hardly no travel teams out east but in the west there are tournaments every weekend in Charlotte.

All of Kinston stars played on Terrance Copper’s 7 on 7 national team, The QB and the WRs and some others: also mutilple of the east other stars as well Tarboro’s Kam McDowell, Tyler Powell, Martin Co guys and many more… Granted Tarboro guys were already state champions before they played with T Cop but the national 7 on 7 team expose the Kinston big 3 to elite competition.

 

[Chopper747_2.0]

I’ve said it in other posts, Trey. It’s money. Go no further than Kinston vs Shelby. Lenoir Co. population is shrinking with an employed population of 22600. Cleveland County is growing and has 44000 employed population. Good coaches are men with families. Would you want your family to live in a growing area or an economically depressed area?

Right, you tend to recruit better coaching in more developed and involved communities. Plus players out west go to more camps, and they also play more out of region, out of state competition.

Out east Northeastern improved trying different styles and playing out of state competiton also. Somebody out east posted before that their kids dont get to go to enough camps or any camps at all in the off season.

It's a combination of alot of stuff. More individual trainers in the off season, just alot more resources and investment out west.

 

[Chopper747_2.0]

Yes sir, out west most teams run some sort of spread style....
A few exceptions like your mention of Tarboro around here is South Point, they are always successful running their Flexbbone ; They call red bone)... West Lincoln, North Lincoln and others run some wing and we ran the Flexbone until Lance Ware took over

We see spread passing so much most are used to defending it here, and some in West struggle with the Tarboro , South Point types because we ust dont see it as much

Flip that to the east A lot of running styles and most are used to defending that, and not passing

There are exceptions, of course like Kinston who throws it all over the place, Northeastern etc

It doesnt seem traditionally over a good number of years the west has had the easts number overall ...

Example in 2021 we had Wallace rose hill, we couoldnt stop their rush first half we just werent used to seeing it and they ran it exceptionally well, but they would admit they couldnt stop a nosebleed against out pass either... We finally got a couple stops and it snowballed on em

I also think the level of competition overall in the west is better and I am not trying to down the east.. But the Crest, Shelby, Burns, KM, Lincolnton, Maiden, East Lincolns, Reidsvilles, Mt Airys, Eastern randoplhs of the world are beating each other up every week helps tremendously when it comes playoff time
Just a couple thoughts, some may not agree

yeah theres more diverse styles of play in the west so defenses get exposure to alot of them. I mentioned earlier it hurt Reidsville initially not to have more diverse style offenses during the regular season like playing a West Lincoln, SP, or Tarboro to get exposure to that.

Teams out west also play better out of conference by playing up or out of state when they schedule some of the higher ranking big schools to show them where to improve at.

 

[TheJims]

Not sure how it is in the west but community involvement in the east isn’t what it used to be. Shoot look at the run Tarboro has been on the last 20 years and even they don’t even have the support from the whole community they used to have. Like @HowerinJr has said before - almost all of the good paying jobs have that eastern nc used to have are gone.

Tarboro had a 6% population decline from 2010-2020.

I just randomly pulled some city and towns from there out of curiosity across the state. Some with similar populations.

Rocky Mount -5.5
Kinston -8.2 with a rapid decline for 30 years of over 20%
Goldsboro -7.6
Wilson -2.7
Weldon -12.7
Clinton -3.0
Duplin County -16.7
Lumberton -11.7
Laurinburg -6.2
Rockingham -3.3

Hickory +8.7
Statesville +15.8
Shelby +7.8
Morganton +3.3
Mount Airy +2.2 with a +20 from 2000-2010
Sparta +3.6
Elkin +3.0
Kernersville +14.5
Salisbury +5.6

Of course alot of the western growth is in relation to proximity to larger cities. I'm sure many of the areas around Fayetteville and Wilmington have grown but as mentioned by others when jobs go so do people.

I think the state has a crisis east of Raleigh that they don't quite realize yet.

 

[TreyScott_NC]

A lot of good info with supportive data. Interesting

 

[Otis1144]

We have to play with the kids that live in our assigned area. That’s a huge difference .

If you coached with Jim Bob Bryant I’d keep it on the down low. I’m not saying he couldn’t coach but he was a dick of a human being. Nobody in a conference that had to deal with him had any respect for him.

 

[TreyScott_NC]

We have to play with the kids that live in our assigned area. That’s a huge difference .

If you coached with Jim Bob Bryant I’d keep it on the down low. I’m not saying he couldn’t coach but he was a dick of a human being. Nobody in a conference that had to deal with him had any respect for him.

I feel like WC does it the right way, or did under MT, he believed in the 7 on 7 and the passing game…

on JB he was way ahead of the game. A spread guru, that’s why I brought him up. He was definitely different.

 

[BoltsUp]

Great question, but no easy answers. The same question can be raised between Cleveland County and neighboring county systems in the west. My 2 cents on this matter:

1. Community involvement and Culture
   • You have to produce something the community wants to get behind and create support.
   • Youth football feeder programs. You have to create an environment where kids love football and the high school they will attend.
2. A system that works for your area.
   • If you don't have the best athletes, year in and year out, AND a solid QB in the pipeline at all times, you may not want to go Air Raid.
   • Most areas need to look at a run-based system to shorten the game, help the defense, and a system the kids in the program (youth to HS) can get really good at running to negate an athletic advantage in some games.
3. Coaching
   • It starts here. Every effective and efficient organization has to have a competent leader the team and community can believe in. One guy can make a big difference. We have seen it this year firsthand at Stuart Cramer. I am a big fan of Coach Simmons, something he has earned this year. He is all in on football. He lives and breathes it and doesn't ask anything from others he is not already doing. When he falls short, he takes quick responsibility and corrects it. He OWNS anything inside that program because he is appreciative he is the leader. The players and community see this example daily and replicate it.
4. A School System that cares about sports
   • Some school systems help facilitate good programs and others don't. Look at Gaston County as an example. They make it nearly impossible to transfer to play a sport unless you are dishonest. It's a charade. Kids "move," get a note from a doctor, etc., to transfer all the time, but the county makes it as hard as possible. Then you look at surrounding counties and kids are transferring freely. I know opinions differ on this, but there is a population of kids for whom sports may be a great path forward toward advancing their quality of life through obtaining scholarships to college, and not giving those kids the same support as you would a kid that wants to learn a trade like welding is a disservice to them. I still find it hyper-hypocritical that I live in a county where the school system fights kids transferring, but I am flooded with “HS Transfer Portal” news on social media about kids who operate under the same state rules.

Side note: In my opinion, 7-on-7 summer leagues don't hold much value other than team chemistry and a baseline of route running and defensive coverage. I don't think many conference championships are won because a team participated in a 7-on-7 league. The same can be said of artificial turf. The only advantage to turf would be that you can support more practices/games on the field, such as youth football, games after heavy rains, etc.

 

[Chopper747_2.0]

Great question, but no easy answers. The same question can be raised between Cleveland County and neighboring county systems in the west. My 2 cents on this matter:

1. Community involvement and Culture
   • You have to produce something the community wants to get behind and create support.
   • Youth football feeder programs. You have to create an environment where kids love football and the high school they will attend.
2. A system that works for your area.
   • If you don't have the best athletes, year in and year out, AND a solid QB in the pipeline at all times, you may not want to go Air Raid.
   • Most areas need to look at a run-based system to shorten the game, help the defense, and a system the kids in the program (youth to HS) can get really good at running to negate an athletic advantage in some games.
3. Coaching
   • It starts here. Every effective and efficient organization has to have a competent leader the team and community can believe in. One guy can make a big difference. We have seen it this year firsthand at Stuart Cramer. I am a big fan of Coach Simmons, something he has earned this year. He is all in on football. He lives and breathes it and doesn't ask anything from others he is not already doing. When he falls short, he takes quick responsibility and corrects it. He OWNS anything inside that program because he is appreciative he is the leader. The players and community see this example daily and replicate it.
4. A School System that cares about sports
   • Some school systems help facilitate good programs and others don't. Look at Gaston County as an example. They make it nearly impossible to transfer to play a sport unless you are dishonest. It's a charade. Kids "move," get a note from a doctor, etc., to transfer all the time, but the county makes it as hard as possible. Then you look at surrounding counties and kids are transferring freely. I know opinions differ on this, but there is a population of kids for whom sports may be a great path forward toward advancing their quality of life through obtaining scholarships to college, and not giving those kids the same support as you would a kid that wants to learn a trade like welding is a disservice to them. I still find it hyper-hypocritical that I live in a county where the school system fights kids transferring, but I am flooded with “HS Transfer Portal” news on social media about kids who operate under the same state rules.

Side note: In my opinion, 7-on-7 summer leagues don't hold much value other than team chemistry and a baseline of route running and defensive coverage. I don't think many conference championships are won because a team participated in a 7-on-7 league. The same can be said of artificial turf. The only advantage to turf would be that you can support more practices/games on the field, such as youth football, games after heavy rains, etc.

7 on 7 provides way more reps and helps improve muscle memory to save time when learning plays, so that the plays become 2nd nature by the time the season rolls around. They have to practice for that also, so it's VER?Y important.

 

[NCprepbball]

I see this mainly in basketball but can see where it translates into other sports. The eastern part of the state has great athletes, however, many times they lack the basic fundamentals and discipline, which hurts them at times against their western counterparts.
Of course, this doesn’t apply to every eastern team but I have noticed this over the last decade. I think this is also being mentioned in a roundabout way by others on this topic.

 

[BoltsUp]

7 on 7 provides way more reps and helps improve muscle memory to save time when learning plays, so that the plays become 2nd nature by the time the season rolls around. They have to practice for that also, so it's VER?Y important.

Good point. Every min of practice time counts so anything you can get for "free" before the season helps. I don't have much experience in the 7on7 circuit as you can probably tell. My opinion is those reps help, but cant be close to having a live game rep. I have seen many a 7on7 "Champion" fail in real football.

 

[Chopper747_2.0]

Good point. Every min of practice time counts so anything you can get for "free" before the season helps. I don't have much experience in the 7on7 circuit as you can probably tell. My opinion is those reps help, but cant be close to having a live game rep. I have seen many a 7on7 "Champion" fail in real football.

That's because their line play sucks, gotta be a complete team. Complete teams win titles. Complete line play, complete offense and complete defense.

 

[HeelRaiderMBD]

Lots of interesting ideas and supportive data. But I would like to know the most important piece of objective data that led to this thread. What is the all-time W-L record of West vs. East in state championship games - all classifications? NCpreps may already have this information? If not, I'm confident that Grizley can come up with it.

 

[Shelby Lion]

Lots of interesting ideas and supportive data. But I would like to know the most important piece of objective data that led to this thread. What is the all-time W-L record of West vs. East in state championship games - all classifications? NCpreps may already have this information? If not, I'm confident that Grizley can come up with it.

Pretty overwhelming since sub-division began Just looking at 2A/2aa It looks like 34 West 7 East (not counting this year)

 

[Otis1144]

I feel like WC does it the right way, or did under MT, he believed in the 7 on 7 and the passing game…

on JB he was way ahead of the game. A spread guru, that’s why I brought him up. He was definitely different.

Definitely different! WC has always had a coaching staff doing things right. We struggled some after Jordan retired which he had no plan to do. Craven county has always looked out for New Bern. You’ve heard of double dipping I’m sure. They did it forever until coach Jordan decided to do it. Then craven county told him he couldn’t come back. So he has helped from the side not getting paid. He even did that at New Bern and got a ring with them. Little league really is what helped us get going in the Jordan days. It in the Western part of Craven county we have nothing to attract new people. No jobs and no industry. Havelock has it and New Bern but we are out in the sticks. That is the biggest hurdle for us. I think all things considered we have done damn good!

 

[The Patriot]

It's been this way for a long time, and it's true in sports other than football as well. Look, almost all the big high school stadiums are in the west, all the big gyms and that points to an emphasis on the importance of sports here. I think it's cultural. Many of these communities were isolated, backwaters if you like, and the locals understood that the best live entertainment they would get on a consistent basis was high school sports. So, they invested in it and the results are what you see now. If I had to guess I would say that the west wins about 80% of all state titles across all NCHSAA events. I can't speak to the east, but I sincerely believe the success of the west comes from how high school sports has been emphasized.

 

[WNCfootball]

Just watching the games. It appeared to me that a lot of the teams in the east weren’t in the wt room as much as the teams in the west. And coaching wasn’t as good. I know NC doesn’t pay coaches great. But I wonder how it compares East vs West? I know some counties offer extra month or 2 of employment for their HC.

 

[TheJims]

Just watching the games. It appeared to me that a lot of the teams in the east weren’t in the wt room as much as the teams in the west. And coaching wasn’t as good. I know NC doesn’t pay coaches great. But I wonder how it compares East vs West? I know some counties offer extra month or 2 of employment for their HC.

Considering there is a larger sect of economically distressed counties down east, I bet outside of the couple metro counties, suburb counties, and beach counties the supplements aren't good at all. But the same can be said for some western areas. I'm sure Cleveland pays football coaches better than Duplin.

While this data is public it is harder to find without requesting it from the school district.

 

[Vik-Val 86]

I know Grimsley has dominated in the West. Are they close to being East or ever been in the East bracket. I can’t remember.

 

[GrizzlyDevil]

Lots of interesting ideas and supportive data. But I would like to know the most important piece of objective data that led to this thread. What is the all-time W-L record of West vs. East in state championship games - all classifications? NCpreps may already have this information? If not, I'm confident that Grizley can come up with it.

Overwhelmingly west. I did this several years ago.

 

[buzzcoach]

How much does 7 on 7 play a factor in the recent success? Considering there are literally hardly no travel teams out east but in the west there are tournaments every weekend in Charlotte.

All of Kinston stars played on Terrance Copper’s 7 on 7 national team, The QB and the WRs and some others: also mutilple of the east other stars as well Tarboro’s Kam McDowell, Tyler Powell, Martin Co guys and many more… Granted Tarboro guys were already state champions before they played with T Cop but the national 7 on 7 team expose the Kinston big 3 to elite competition.

7on7 is not real football!

 

[TreyScott_NC]

7on7 is not real football!

Nobody said 7 on 7 is real football. However it is a training too used heavily especially in the bigger cities

 

[beamer24]

Nobody said 7 on 7 is real football. However it is a training too used heavily especially in the bigger cities

It would help run heavy teams at least get better at defending the pass.

 

[Chopper747_2.0]

Just watching the games. It appeared to me that a lot of the teams in the east weren’t in the wt room as much as the teams in the west. And coaching wasn’t as good. I know NC doesn’t pay coaches great. But I wonder how it compares East vs West? I know some counties offer extra month or 2 of employment for their HC.

West pays more and has better places to live for a young family, so yeah they're gonna have better coaching.

 

[The Patriot]

Considering there is a larger sect of economically distressed counties down east, I bet outside of the couple metro counties, suburb counties, and beach counties the supplements aren't good at all. But the same can be said for some western areas. I'm sure Cleveland pays football coaches better than Duplin.

While this data is public it is harder to find without requesting it from the school district.

Go to this story in the Observer: NC Football Coaches Face Major Pay Disparities | Charlotte Observer There's a table about 2/3 of the way down the page that is searchable. It has 37 pages of data, but only displays the first ten results at a time. However, you can put a name or a school name in the search box and see the results. It opens fine for me in a normal browser, but you may have to open it in a "private browser" to get around the Observer's paywall.

 

[TheJims]

Go to this story in the Observer: NC Football Coaches Face Major Pay Disparities | Charlotte Observer There's a table about 2/3 of the way down the page that is searchable. It has 37 pages of data, but only displays the first ten results at a time. However, you can put a name or a school name in the search box and see the results. It opens fine for me in a normal browser, but you may have to open it in a "private browser" to get around the Observer's paywall.

Appreciate that. I'll check it out

 

[TheJims]

The crazy thing in all this is that salary listed also counts their teachers salary and anything else they get from the district

How Brian Hampton is getting paid over $90,000 at Ashe blows my mind. At one point they only gave teachers like a half percent supplement. I wonder if he's coaching something else or does something like drivers Ed.

Edited to add that Hampton also serves as AD at Ashe.

 

[TarVikes1]

Something I’ve noticed in the 1A/2A ranks - not sure if it’s the same in the bigger classes…

Tarboro football is basically like a year around thing. They hit the weight room hard in the spring and summer and I know the schools out west that we play do it similar.

I’ve been told that there aren’t many schools in the east in any class that operate that same way. They just show up in August and play the season.

 

[TheJims]

I wonder if many of the eastern schools even offer weight training as a class and if so is it legit or just a do whatever you want PE.

 

[TreyScott_NC]

I wonder if many of the eastern schools even offer weight training as a class and if so is it legit or just a do whatever you want PE.

All the schools I know of in the east do.

 

[Otis1144]

Something I’ve noticed in the 1A/2A ranks - not sure if it’s the same in the bigger classes…

Tarboro football is basically like a year around thing. They hit the weight room hard in the spring and summer and I know the schools out west that we play do it similar.

I’ve been told that there aren’t many schools in the east in any class that operate that same way. They just show up in August and play the season.

Our guys work out year round. We also have a weight training class. Some of our kids and Havelocks kids get together on Sundays and have drills together. They started doing that several years ago and as far as I know they still do. Just the kids, no adults involved. Sorta like 7 on 7 they just do it on their own.