in being our Defensive Co?
Not saying I heard that but the guy is looking for work and is a pretty proven DC.
Thoughts?
Not saying I heard that but the guy is looking for work and is a pretty proven DC.
Thoughts?
What would be your reaction if you heard Brian VanGorder was interested....
- Thread starter bonedaddy401
- Start date
Sign him up. It wasn't his fault Auburn sucked, it was the offense. His D was on the field the whole damn time.
He has yet to ever stop a spread offense - the same exact complaint everyone has about Chris Wilson.
He fielded a horrible defense at Auburn this year. Absolutely terrible. And that defense was filled with as much talent as anyone in the country. Look at their recruiting - that defense should have been close to Alabama's level.
Get the **** outta here. Absolutely no way. Ever heard of attrition? Thy name is Auburn.
His defense wasn't helped by the offense either. Auburn had alot bigger problems on and off the field than Brian Van Gorder.
He also didn't have two NFL corners. His secondary shouldn't even be close to comparing to ours...but for some reason that comparison is there. Why? Because our Thorpe winner and Darius Slay weren't even enough to overcome the shittiness of our defensive scheme
And I think only one of his back 4 were returning starters.
That said, Jermaine "Business Decision" Whitehead might've been the worst FS in college football this year. I thought Tyrone Nix was coaching him the way he was out of position every play.
That said, Jermaine "Business Decision" Whitehead might've been the worst FS in college football this year. I thought Tyrone Nix was coaching him the way he was out of position every play.
LOL. OK. Didn't realize attrition wasn't the responsibility of the coaching staff? Maybe not on Van Gorder individually - but you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are stocked to the 17'n gills in blue chip defensive talent there - to an extent recently that can only be matched by LSU, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, FSU, Texas, and USC nationally.
2012:
4* DB Josh Holsey
4* LB Cassanova McKinzy
4* LB Javiere Mitchell
4* DT Tyler Nero
2011:
4* DB Erique Florence
5* LB Kris Frost
4* DB Jonathan Rose
4* DB Robenson Therenzie
4* DB Jermaine Whitehead
4* DT Gabe Wright
2010:
4* DE Joel Bonomolo
4* DT Kenneth Carter
4* LB Jake Holland
4* DE Corey Lemonier
4* LB LaDarius Owens
4* DE Craig Sanders
4* DT Jeffrey Whitaker
2009:
4* DE Taikwon Paige
4* DB Reggie Taylor
4* DT Jamar Travis
That's a full two-deep of 4 and 5* talent on the defensive side, while not even considering the 3*s that(should) be developed.
Maybe not - But he also inherited a tremendous young DL chock full of early-round NFL talent - including one of the elite pass-rushing DE's in the country in Lemonier - and led them to a tremendous letdown this year after looking to be one of the best DL units in the country entering the season. Obviously, he didn't use his scheme to it's strengths either. Otherwise, teams wouldn't have had time to sit in the pocket and torch his DBs all season.
I can punch holes in either scheme. Wilson requires an elite DL to be successful - which we didn't have. BVG requires elite linebackers - which they didn't have. Neither used their personnel very well this season.
I agree they weren't good...but Wilson had an offense worth a **** that kept his boys off the field much more. Meanwhile Van Gorder's bunch was on the field all game, and after a while you would think a defense would be fed up with having to play hard while Frazier and the clowns on offense were scoring about 6 points a game. Van Gorder's Defense would have had to hold opponents to about a TD per game to have a shot at a W, while also being on the field 3 of 4 quarters.
I agree with you that both weren't very good. But you have to look at the entire situations surrounding the teams. Kinda like the Ellis Johnson argument....his defense ranked 35th the last season his was at MSU, but it was FAR better than Wilson's 27th (or whatever) ranked defense this year. Ellis' D that year was on the field entirely too much bc the O couldn't even get a damn first down.
Wilson didn't have the luxury of blaming it on no talent or a shitastic offense. Granted, our O wasn't great, but it was far from being as bad as Frazier and Auburn or Tyson Lee and MSU.
Van Gorder was a first year coach, guy. You can't put the talent issue on him. You're reaching with that. You need to talk to Gene Chizik about that, and then chat with Scott Loeffler about his worst offense in the country.
Wright, Lemonier, Holland and Whitehead are the only ones on that list that even start. 4 or so more make the 2 deep. 3 aren't even on the team anymore. **** the rankings, talent is talent. And they ain't got it. The talent they DO have is very young, which translates to losses in the SEC. Chizik had horrendous attrition in his first couple of classes, and the ones that stayed were running around like wild indians. The man just can't run a program.
Wright, Lemonier, Holland and Whitehead are the only ones on that list that even start. 4 or so more make the 2 deep. 3 aren't even on the team anymore. **** the rankings, talent is talent. And they ain't got it. The talent they DO have is very young, which translates to losses in the SEC. Chizik had horrendous attrition in his first couple of classes, and the ones that stayed were running around like wild indians. The man just can't run a program.
There wasn't a talent issue. I've already shown that to you. A development issue? Maybe. But that Auburn team is completely loaded with elite talent - both on offense and defense - and if they can get ANY resemblance of QB play, you will see that in YEAR ONE under Malzahn.
Again, surely you don't think they experienced a dropoff in defensive talent from 2011 to this year. They returned 9 of 11 starters - good for 8th in the entire COUNTRY.
Bottom line - Van Gorder hasn't proven a damn thing. Nothing. Not in the SEC of today.
You're saying that we aren't looking at "entire situations surrounding the teams" directly before you cherrypick a slice of info to support your point of view. IF you want to look at the big picture, look at the big picture. Don't just pick out enough to support your preconceived notion(BVG superior to Wilson). Did you forget they were in a huddle pro-style on offense this year? Yes it was shittastic. It followed a shittastic performance last year in the HURRY UP Malzahn spread.
TOP 2012: 74th - 29:36.67/game
TOP 2011: 108th - 27:58.15/game
Now, explain to me why the defense with 9 returning starters didn't get better - with blue chip talent - and a new hotshot DC that was supposed to turn it around immediately(who coincidentally had never defended a true spread offense).
I take it you're a young engineer. You like to throw out a bunch of useless numbers to try and make your point, much like Coach34. Let me tell you something, there, self-proclaimed elite poster - as soon as you can match your numbers to what's really going on in reality, only then will you be able to get the best of folks like me. A few posters on this board eat your **** up. Not me, I see through every last bit of it. You say you showed me that Auburn had elite talent by a bunch of recruiting rankings. Right. I show you 3-9, but you'd still argue. Elite talent doesn't go 3-9.
Not to mention that you blamed the attrition on Van Gorder in your other post, implying that there was in fact a talent issue, then switched positions when I blew that away.
Auburn sucked on defense in 2011.
Duh. That's like saying Rick Ray hasn't shown anything.
You're done here, pal. You're in over your head.
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I can think of one thing, but you're too hard-headed to acknowledge it.
edited to be nice
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I haven't "self-proclaimed" a damn thing. I form my opinion based on all the facts that I have at my disposal and let people draw their own conclusion. So, I'll take this as a compliment.
I already do that literally every time I have a disagreement with you. The fact that you can't see it just feeds into how delusional you really are.
Why do you think that is? Because I form an opinion and base it in fact. Whether or not you agree with that is up to you. Unfortunately for you, until you can engage me on a purely factual level, you will never even be a worthy adversary. Clearly it hurts your feelings that most agree with me.
And you show once again that you don't know the difference between talent and development.
Sure it does when it lacks multiple key pieces - QB and coaching - as well as multiple injuries to starting OL. As far as "elite talent doesn't underperform" goes - How do you explain Texas, USC, Florida State(Every year), Tennessee, Notre Dame(prior to this year) etc... How do you explain teams that regularly recruit in the top 10-12 every single year barely being bowl eligible? This Auburn team has the talent to be a 9 win team next year if their cards fall correctly. How do you think that miracle happens?
The blind do not see.
And they were just as bad in 2012 - despite returning 9 of 11 starters and being on the field less. How do you explain that to me?
Refer to previous statement. Actually, this is a fair comparison. If Rick Ray were fired at the end of the season this year, he damn sure wouldn't have shown enough for a borderline top 25 team/program to be firing their current coach to hire him, would he? Yeahhh, I didn't think so. BVG is very similar.
LOL - Says the one person in the history of SPS that can't keep a username for more than a couple of months at a time. If you are going to debate me, at least make it challenging.
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This deal started out about Auburn's talent, where you listed a bunch of players and star rankings, most of which are young or don't even play for them. Your 'fact' is about 50 percent wrong and the part that you cling to is actually the opinion of a bunch of Yancy Porters and Steve Robertsons. You lose right off the bat.
This, and the real 'fact' that I have working knowledge of Auburn's program.
I didn't read the rest.
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Wailin' J the Skull-Dragger
Let me summarize Engie's argument:
Post # 7
1. Van Gorder can't stop a spread offense (Post #12 = we couldn't either).
2. The defense was full of elite (High School) talent (see Post #12)
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger argues for attrition (Post #8)
Post #14
1. Both this year and last year their defense was "shittastic" despite the offensive scheme.
2. Asks why the lack of improvement with the New DC -talent - and returning starters?
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger deletes his reply in Post #15
Post #16
1. Attrition is not the responsibility of BVG
2. Lists the 4 and 5 star players (only) from the past three years (20 total)
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger replies in Post #17 that
A. first year coach can't be responsible for the talent [so neither the wealth or attrition is BVG's fault]
B. three are not on the team (17 elite's left). Four actually start (13 DEFENSE elite's ride the pine). [Wail J the Skull-Dragger clearly misses the point that they are not playing their 4-start talent. See Next Post #18]
Post #18
1. Engie hesitantly acknowledges a development issue [clearly this is correct, IMO]. He returns to his original argument that they have loads of talent and predicts a resurgence next year.
2. Asks Wailin J the Skull-Dragger if they lost any talent by returning 9 of 11 Def starters? [Formidable retort]
3. Concludes BVG flopped.
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger replied in Post #19 that
1. he's not persuaded by in stats - or at least those that don't correspond to reality.
2. Elite talent doesn't go 3-9 [so basically arguing that talent overcomes coaching. Not in MSU's case]
3. Accuses Engie of blaming attrition on BVG: Not to mention that you blamed the attrition on Van Gorder in your other post, implying that there was in fact a talent issue, then switched positions when I blew that away.
[this is factually incorrect. Actually no one blamed BVG for the attrition and attrition was introduced by Wailin' J the Skull-Dragger. Wailin J the Skull-Dragger was in fact the one switching positions.]
4. Reminds us that Auburn sucked in 2011.
5. Compares the first year of BVG to Rick Ray [Rick Ray has coached with no talent. BVG coaches with talent at every position. Rick Ray will probably still have a job after his first year though]
Conclusion:
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger thinks that BVG can't be blamed because he's first year [acceptable argument but TSUN actually got better on defense with a first year coach and less talent]
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger thinks that Auburn has no talent because of their record [horrendous argument].
Engie has a point that Auburn still has not developed their talent and could be lethal this year [not to mention with Ellis Johnson and his vision for personell.]
Engie also correctly points out that returning 9 starters is a luxury.
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger must not have known that State had talent during the Croom years - despite their record and losing to Maine.
ETA: Wailin J the Skull-Dragger adds in Post #19
This, and the real 'fact' that I have working knowledge of Auburn's program. [Just like when he broke the news that, according to his knowledge of AU's program, CheeseStick would be back next year at Auburn, just 10 days before he was fired.]
Let me summarize Engie's argument:
Post # 7
1. Van Gorder can't stop a spread offense (Post #12 = we couldn't either).
2. The defense was full of elite (High School) talent (see Post #12)
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger argues for attrition (Post #8)
Post #14
1. Both this year and last year their defense was "shittastic" despite the offensive scheme.
2. Asks why the lack of improvement with the New DC -talent - and returning starters?
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger deletes his reply in Post #15
Post #16
1. Attrition is not the responsibility of BVG
2. Lists the 4 and 5 star players (only) from the past three years (20 total)
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger replies in Post #17 that
A. first year coach can't be responsible for the talent [so neither the wealth or attrition is BVG's fault]
B. three are not on the team (17 elite's left). Four actually start (13 DEFENSE elite's ride the pine). [Wail J the Skull-Dragger clearly misses the point that they are not playing their 4-start talent. See Next Post #18]
Post #18
1. Engie hesitantly acknowledges a development issue [clearly this is correct, IMO]. He returns to his original argument that they have loads of talent and predicts a resurgence next year.
2. Asks Wailin J the Skull-Dragger if they lost any talent by returning 9 of 11 Def starters? [Formidable retort]
3. Concludes BVG flopped.
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger replied in Post #19 that
1. he's not persuaded by in stats - or at least those that don't correspond to reality.
2. Elite talent doesn't go 3-9 [so basically arguing that talent overcomes coaching. Not in MSU's case]
3. Accuses Engie of blaming attrition on BVG: Not to mention that you blamed the attrition on Van Gorder in your other post, implying that there was in fact a talent issue, then switched positions when I blew that away.
[this is factually incorrect. Actually no one blamed BVG for the attrition and attrition was introduced by Wailin' J the Skull-Dragger. Wailin J the Skull-Dragger was in fact the one switching positions.]
4. Reminds us that Auburn sucked in 2011.
5. Compares the first year of BVG to Rick Ray [Rick Ray has coached with no talent. BVG coaches with talent at every position. Rick Ray will probably still have a job after his first year though]
Conclusion:
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger thinks that BVG can't be blamed because he's first year [acceptable argument but TSUN actually got better on defense with a first year coach and less talent]
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger thinks that Auburn has no talent because of their record [horrendous argument].
Engie has a point that Auburn still has not developed their talent and could be lethal this year [not to mention with Ellis Johnson and his vision for personell.]
Engie also correctly points out that returning 9 starters is a luxury.
Wailin J the Skull-Dragger must not have known that State had talent during the Croom years - despite their record and losing to Maine.
ETA: Wailin J the Skull-Dragger adds in Post #19
This, and the real 'fact' that I have working knowledge of Auburn's program. [Just like when he broke the news that, according to his knowledge of AU's program, CheeseStick would be back next year at Auburn, just 10 days before he was fired.]
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engie here's one of your butt buddies now.
i'll just pull a peaches on the chizik firing, top guys changed their mind, obviously. you got me there. but i was right on petrino being interviewed and seriously considered as a candidate.
the rest of your post, not so good.
i'll just pull a peaches on the chizik firing, top guys changed their mind, obviously. you got me there. but i was right on petrino being interviewed and seriously considered as a candidate.
the rest of your post, not so good.
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Yet, you can't argue a single point that he made.
The quickest admission of defeat is to claim "it's a grand conspiracy"
Enough with the pissing contest. VanGorder basically priced himself out of college football while @ Auburn, and then didn't have any success whatsoever. He won't be coming to MSU, and I wouldn't want him. He's a throwback to a time that's long passed. He was great at Georgia back in his time - He left there in 2004 - the year before Meyer brought the spread to the SEC. That was 9 years ago. Might as well bring back Joe Lee while we're at it** Heard he was available for 1/5 the price of BVG**
Look, I agree with a lot of what you're saying...and I hope like hell that Wilson turns it around starting Jan 1st. BUT, for You to say I "cherry pick" stats is a bunch of horse **** and you know it. YOU are the one that threw out the "Wilson's scoring defense is ranked higher than Ellis Johnson's" the other day when we were all having this same discussion. You "cherry picked" that stat because it was THE ONLY stat you could find to compare EJ and CW while having it support your argument.
Once again, I like most of what you post, especially the stats, but I take offense to the "cherry pick" usage when you have been known to cherry pick stats as recently as two days ago. That being said, I'm not getting into the shitfest that you and goat have going right now, because I think the truth lies in the middle somewhere. CW isn't as bad as Goat makes him out, or even as bad as I make him out probably....but he damn sure isn't as good as you make him out to be. And the same goes for VG.
So, I will just say that if CW lays a turd in the Gator Bowl, his *** should either be gone, or coaching for his job next season.
I think what Van Gorder inherited was worse than the **** Nutt had at OM. No discipline, striaight-up thug POS's that happened to be 4 and 5 star in talent but were all probably paid for to ge the letter signed. I would be will to give the Stache a try over what I watched this year. We should never expect to never lose to OM again but we should have never been run off the field like we did this year. Out of the loses Mullen has had this was his worst to me.
But I want Woody McKoening gone beforee anyone else...
But I want Woody McKoening gone beforee anyone else...
No one has factored in the ability to recruit. We have to have excellent recruiters on our staff and Wilson has done a dang good job. Something tells me the "Stash" would not be able to relate with teenage football players in Mississippi quite like Wilson does.
That was the same thing you did while trying to say "oh Auburn's offense was bad so that's why BVG's defense looked bad" without even looking at a single stat. VanGorder's defense this year was terrible - and there is not any good excuse for it. Maybe cherrypicking was the wrong word - because you didn't even confirm your idea to be statistically true(it wasn't).
Why in the world are you trying to make ANOTHER Chris Wilson debate out of this? But I'll bite. Last time before my comprehensive statistical analysis thread comes out. I brought up Wilson's scoring defense in that thread in hopes of showing the MASSIVE overreaction on here to what he has accomplished at MSU thusfar. "As good as I make him out to be"...I'm confused where I've made him out to be anything other than what he is? Wilson's 2011 defense blows EVERYTHING that we saw from EJ off the field. Not.even.close. But everyone conveniently forgets last year - in order to stay pissed off about this year. Wilson's defense underperformed this year - as such, his seat has to be a bit warm - but it damn sure wasn't enough to cost him his job.
There isn't a decent defensive coordinator IN THE COUNTRY that would want to come to MSU if we fired Wilson in year two based on his performance thusfar. This year was a big letdown - I haven't denied that a single time yet. Point still remains that he's done a tremendous job recruiting - and the jury is still out on his DC ability. We will no doubt see next year what he is and isn't. Probably get a pretty good idea in the bowl game.
Proof there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the two at this point in Chris's tenure(using metrics to mostly account for the Croom offenses and the difference in TOP):
EJ's yards/rush(by year 04-07 - average) - 4.4, 3.7, 3.4, 4.1 - 3.9
EJ's pass yards/att(by year 04-07 - average) - 7.1, 6.8, 8.0, 5.9 - 6.95
EJ's yards/play(by year 04-07 - average) - 5.4, 4.8, 5.4, 4.9 - 5.125
CW's yards/rush(by year 11-12 - average) - 3.72, 4.29 - 4.005
CW's pass yards/att(by year 11-12 - average) - 5.9, 7.1 - 6.5
CW's yards/play(by year 11-12 - average) - 4.7, 5.56 - 5.13
All this - in a time period where CW is facing superior offenses to those that EJ faced(the extent of which will be in my comprehensive post). Yet one is immortalized, while the other is villainized.
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