I'd like to pose a question. Right now, I don't have an answer just posing the question. I've heard more than just a few disgruntled voices regarding using RPI for seeding purposes. I'm not sure what the solution would be to make more folks happy, or even if there is a solution that would make more folks happy. We tried coin flips and draws. There was dissatisfaction with that. Maxpreps ratings were used. People didn't like that either. Now the RPI system is being used, but many fans aren't happy with that either. Would love to hear your thoughts on what a possible solution might be. Like I said, right now, I don't have one.
What's the Seeding Solution
- Thread starter Mr Honda
- Start date
There is no real solution. There's not enough money in HSFB to properly scout every single player on every high school to get a proper rating of a team. It is what it is.
i think they’re headed in the right direction. Maybe tweak the weight some of the factors hold… but RPI is a good way IMO
Brian Simmons seems to do a decent job with his power ratings
I liked max preps but do not completely remove victory/loss margin. Cap it at 28 so basically a 28 point win is equivalent to a 70 point win.
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I think we should go to a ratings system.
Anybody know anyone?
Anybody know anyone?
Mr Honda glad to see you okay , I haven’t really seen you on here.
but I don’t know if there is away to please everyone. I say whatever works. But I am surprised at a few teams that made it
It changed because state wanted 5 classes, schools voted it down so they took away subdividing is what I was told
The only problem I have is including your opponents opponents winning percentage in the equation. That is totally out of the control of any team.
The playoffs are about matchups. Including that factor can dramatically affect a team’s playoff path, how many games are at home and the length of a second or third round trip. All those affect how teams play in high school. I say leave that out and the system is probably about as good as it will get.
I think some tweaks with the RPI can be done.
Option 1
40% Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Opponents Winning Percentage
Option 2
50% Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Winning Percentage
20% Opponents Opponents Winning Percentage
I think more emphasis on winning percentage should be in play and more on who you play. I agree you cannot control who your opponents play but the first 2 you have control over.
Option 1
40% Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Opponents Winning Percentage
Option 2
50% Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Winning Percentage
20% Opponents Opponents Winning Percentage
I think more emphasis on winning percentage should be in play and more on who you play. I agree you cannot control who your opponents play but the first 2 you have control over.
Anyway its done someone is going to COMPLAIN.......We've tried about every way possible and somebody is always left out and not HAPPY...Somebody always has something better...I dont care what it is somebody will think they have a better idea or a BETTER SOLUTION....Personally I like the 4A AND 4AA, OR POSSIBLY 5 LEVELS, OR EVEN 6 LEVELS.....NOTHING WE CAN DO NOW, JUST PLAY THE GAMES....Just my opinion...
So shouldn’t they take out the factor you can’t control? Too much like drawing straws.
100%- I have lost count of all the different ways this has been done. There is no perfect solution just like the NCAA. Tomorrow the first rankings will go out and there will be dozens of fanbases screaming.
The one thing I do like about this format is it forces you to schedule good competition.
You could...thus why I gave two options. Most people know the teams that they schedule and how they also schedule. Some teams could have off years too. Again, nothing is going to be perfect ever.
Page has always scheduled tough opponents on the non conference schedule, even before the state started using RPI. Even if its Butler in their prime or a nationally ranked Highland Springs team from a few years ago. You just learn more about your team in a loss than you do blowing out a cuppycake.
Take Salisbury as an example. Most of their games are conference games, usually against weak teams. They’re already paying the price of weak opponents. Under the current formula, they’re paying twice….South Davidson and Lexington, and then South against Lexington. There are others, but those are the best examples.
Is it reasonable to think that those two teams will schedule good teams in their non-conference schedule? Or that anybody decent will schedule them? So, Salisbury, the undefeated state champ, is moved down the group of conference champions. Does anybody really think they’re that far down the line? Wish I had the time to calculate 2A without that opponents opponents percentage figured in. I suspect it would be a lot different.
And I’m a Thomasville fan and Salisbury’s rival.
Is it reasonable to think that those two teams will schedule good teams in their non-conference schedule? Or that anybody decent will schedule them? So, Salisbury, the undefeated state champ, is moved down the group of conference champions. Does anybody really think they’re that far down the line? Wish I had the time to calculate 2A without that opponents opponents percentage figured in. I suspect it would be a lot different.
And I’m a Thomasville fan and Salisbury’s rival.
Blue and Gold, one disagreement is that scheduling good competition may punish you financially with respect to seeding. It will help in preparing a team for the playoffs but don't be surprised to have teams with no home games that make deep runs or even win the championship outright. Post season gates are split after the NCHSAA takes its cut, but the concessions for those extra games are a significant economic pop for any athletic department. Kudos to the teams that scheduled OOC games that they could lose early in the season. The historical poster child for this strategy has been Shelby High School. How many times have they taken a 2, 3 and I think even a 4 loss team one year and mowed their way to another ring against 2A teams. Some really good teams took lumps early but it will pay off. My two predictions is that this will be wide open this year, especially in 4A, and some teams with gaudy records and high seeds will go down in flames in the first two weeks.
you have control over your non conference scheduling (3-4 games), but not your conference schedule — and we all know conferences aren’t equal.
including your opponents opponents game results provides a wider range of data to analyze and compare resumes.
rpi is not about who’s the best team (pure subjectivity), it’s about who has the best resume. for the most part, statistics can objectively measure that. fans who are expecting the rpi rankings to reflect human subjective “power rankings” are going to continuously be frustrated.
maxpreps is more closely aligned with that.
i agree with the few posters who previously mention brian simmons (simmons ratings). he does great work.
I like the ranking system better than RPI but I would rather use local media rankings not a national site. We have some pretty talented media in NC and many spend time at games and/or watching film. Let’s reward teams for playing good competition and winning on the road and winning their conferences. Looking at CG and Cleveland, they shouldn’t be meeting this soon in the playoffs. CG stepped up and played two of Charlottes better teams as well as RC and WF. Cleveland’s best win was against an 8-4 Rose team. I don’t have any beef with Cleveland but CG should have been ranked higher IMO.
I believe Simmons Ratings are one of the best and would not be opposed to using his Ratings. The thing is, this isn't just about football. His ratings would have to be used for all sports and I'm not sure he has the time to do every single sport, but I might be wrong.
Nick Stevens/HighScoolOT (Raleigh) does an east/west Top 25 poll … and it’s soooo bad. IMO it’s just an impossible task to accurately cover the entire state … but to each their own in the rankings vs ratings debate.
Nothing but respect to Gibbons for scheduling Chambers, Myers Park, Richmond, and WF. I agree, it’s unfortunate this powerhouse matchup is a 3rd round game.
You can't control your own conference. You can't control your opponent's opponents. Wins can't be worth less than what your opponent does or be equal to your opponents' opponents. I don't know why we need all these complicated methods of seeding. We don't need the travel this type of seeding can set up.
Pre-seed the brackets. Conf 1 first place vs Conf 2 fourth place. Conf 1 second place vs Conf 2 third place, etc. Cut down the travel. Make winning more important than what your opponent does. Give everybody an idea of who they're going to be playing ahead of time.
No system is going to seed the teams accurately. You saw tons of "upsets" this year. They weren't upsets---they teams seeded lower were better. No one is surprised Scotland is still playing despite a 23 seed.
Pre-seed the brackets. Conf 1 first place vs Conf 2 fourth place. Conf 1 second place vs Conf 2 third place, etc. Cut down the travel. Make winning more important than what your opponent does. Give everybody an idea of who they're going to be playing ahead of time.
No system is going to seed the teams accurately. You saw tons of "upsets" this year. They weren't upsets---they teams seeded lower were better. No one is surprised Scotland is still playing despite a 23 seed.
5 classes would be a good solution. Subdivideding every class for playoffs was a bit much
60% Winning Percentage
30% Opponents Winning Percentage
10% Opponents' Opponents Winning Percentage
RD...if they make changes to the RPI, an emphasis on your own winning percentage should carry the most weight. I like those percentages
Wit all due respect, there is no perfect way but we can do much better than this.
It doesnt have to be perfect, just the best we can. At least Mr. Stevens can use things like, what he sees with his eyes, his understanding of the game, knowing injuries and players that are out or coming back. Computers can’t factor anything but records and opponents records.
that’s what i’m saying … impossible. the only thing he “sees with his eyes” are football teams in the WRAL tv footprint.
I don’t know him or listen to him but I do know there are people that can do a great job. Chris Hughes polls have always been solid.
Year in and year out simmons is the most accurate ratings. There was a butler fan on here years ago that had one too that was really good.
one issue with RPI is there is no adjustment for playing out of classification. If a 3A team beats a 4A it’s treated no differently than them beating a 2A team. Scotland played 8 games against in state competition. 6 were 4A. They received no adjustment for that….many lower classification teams are suffering from that and some are being rewarded for playing down. It all sorts out in the end, but it unfairly hurts teams’ seeding putting them on the road in the playoffs.
one issue with RPI is there is no adjustment for playing out of classification. If a 3A team beats a 4A it’s treated no differently than them beating a 2A team. Scotland played 8 games against in state competition. 6 were 4A. They received no adjustment for that….many lower classification teams are suffering from that and some are being rewarded for playing down. It all sorts out in the end, but it unfairly hurts teams’ seeding putting them on the road in the playoffs.
What if the majority of the teams in your conference suck. Should a good team in a bad conference be punished? Is there any honest way to compare a team from Charlotte with a team from say Greensboro? It is what it is!
I think that is why there should be more emphasis on actually winning versus the other factors of the RPI. IF 50-60% of the RPI is based off of how you do, that prioritizes winning. Just have to see if the NCHSAA will adjust anything or keep it the same.
They should have added 2 divisions. 1-6. they didn't because IMHO they are idiots...
Really like that RD. We need you to replace that clown Que.
Also at least subdivide 1A and 4A as well. I personally liked the 8 titles. Great for more communities, kids, and more games for me to watch
