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Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?

Who do you think killed JonBenet?

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J

JHB4UK

Heisman
May 29, 2001
31,836
11,258
0
bigblue11 said:
They also showed pics of her neck and it had severe bruising and marks.
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yup, marks that appeared to be her, alive, using her fingernails to try and losen the rope tightening around her neck. Not the kind of physical reaction of someone long dead from being cracked in the skull by a 1 ft long metal flashlight. also there are the alleged stun gun marks on back & side of face.

guess what is so fascinating about the case is that neither explanation makes any sense. accidentally killed by mom or brother - why stage the complicated sadomasochist sexual rape/murder of a touching 6 yr old girl to get away with that? killed by intruder - who entered house, fed her pineapple, wrote a note that would have taken at least 20 min, did what he did to the girl, then escaped undetected & unseen, & never arrested or suspected.
 
wcc31

wcc31

Heisman
Mar 18, 2002
26,786
87,648
98
MWes11 said:
Like others have said, I do think it was an accident (or maybe not) by one of the parents or brother, and they panicked and it spiraled out of control. Just my opinion.
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Can't blame you. It's a bizarre case.
 
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Bill Derington

Heisman
Jan 21, 2003
21,528
39,877
113
I've gone back and forth on intruder or family after watching the shows.
I believe A&E had the first show on a couple weeks ago, I was sure the family didn't do it, then I watched the dateline show, and thought well maybe they did. I saw the son speak on Dr Phil and the one thing he said that really stood out, and the other programs didn't say was that him and her went to the basement to play approx 11 PM.
Watching the show last night we know the mother called 911 at 5:42 AM. We know that she and Burke at pineapple at some time between then even though the family says he didn't, his DNA was on a spoon. The note took probably an hour at least to write, then you've also got time to actually commit the murder. All this and no one woke up.

The timeline just doesn't add up to it being an intruder
 
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CrittendenWildcat

CrittendenWildcat

Heisman
Nov 28, 2003
12,050
12,470
113
the nail at the foul line said:
I never knew the DNA was touch DNA. I had just heard intruder DNA and believed it. I never followed this case closely. I worked in office where we had this weird lady secretary that was a Jehovah's Witness. Anyway, her email account was jonbenet@ something or other. That creeped me out.
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Touch DNA analysis found the DNA of 6 unidentified males and 1 unidentified female on her long johns, the garrote, and the cords. Significantly, however, there was a DNA match between a sample that was taken from her panties years earlier and the waistband of the long johns. Finding that DNA on one piece of clothing could be from the manufacturing process or any myriad of ways from people JonBenet would have come in contact with, but finding it on two pieces of clothing makes the possibility of that DNA on both items happening due to happenstance casual contact or some employee handling BOTH items on an assembly line statistically infinitesimally small. That's what sprang the Ramseys in the eyes of the DA. That DNA is now in the national database, awaiting a hit.
 
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G

Guess Who

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Jul 26, 2005
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wcc31 said:
Yeah, but the stuff used to tie her up and other stuff used in the assault wasn't in the house. If it was the parents, then why wasn't it left there?
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Maybe John took it and stashed it somewhere when he was gone that 90 minutes when cops were there. Just a thought. They said he came back being very nervous.
 
B

Bill Derington

Heisman
Jan 21, 2003
21,528
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Another thing that had me puzzled, maybe one of you guys can answer.
The police thought the 2 marks on her came from the play railroad they had in basement, while the DA outside investigator thought it came from a tazer because it looked like burn marks.
The toy train track operates by tracks having a voltage across them, the train completed the circuit and that's what makes the train motor turn. If the track was energized, and then jabbed into her skin she would then complete the circuit, and it would shock her, possibly leaving burns.
 
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Supreme Lord Z

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Jan 7, 2016
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This case has been obvious from the beginning. The Ramsey's are not monsters. They are good decent people. It is clear that if it were John or Patsy that committed the crime then the other would have given them up in a heartbeat.

Their only son hit their daughter in the head with a flashlight in the basement then she went into spasms and he panicked and strangled her as he was afraid her thrashing around and gurgling was going to alert the parents. He wanted her to be quiet. Then after he had done it he realized he would have to tell the parents so he went and got his mom. She flipped out as not only did she lose her daughter but she was also going to lose her son over this horrific crime. She remembers her outrage at OJ easily getting away with murder and she decides she is going to cover it up. She writes the note, stages the scene, then she wakes her husband up and convinces him to go along with it. I am sure Patsy set everything up before the father was awakened.

These are desperate parents willing to risk everything to save their only son, their only surviving child. They were faced with losing their entire family in one tragic night. I would do anything to save my children. We all would. That's what they did.
 
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Supreme Lord Z

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The reason I am sure the father was awakened last after Patsy had already staged everything is John's actions after the the police were notified. I believe he was having serious second thoughts. He disappears for an hour and a half. He is overheard making travel arrangments an hour after he found his murdered daughter. He was unsure of Patsy's plan and he wanted to distance himself. To come up with his plan C if all this fell apart.

To me that is the biggest flub in the entire investigation. Not separating those two at the crime scene. I think John would have broken that night if he were questioned and pressed. Patsy was driving that ship. I am sure of that.
 
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UK_Dallas

UK_Dallas

Heisman
Sep 17, 2015
14,551
36,404
76
Think Z has pretty much nailed it. Coupled with Bill D's thoughts about the train we can kind of start piecing it together.

The two kids are up late eating pineapple in the kitchen. Decide to go down to the basement to play with the train. They don't want to turn on any lights on the main floor to wake anybody up so they take the flashlight to get down the stairs and to the train room. Something happens and Burke loses his cool and hits her over the head with the flashlight. She falls and hits the train track with the right side of her face. She is effectively dead but might still be twitching. He panics and fashions a garrote and finishes it. Goes to find mom and coverup begins. IMO.
 
S

Supreme Lord Z

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I think the garrote was already fashioned. I don't know what for, though. The handle was from one of Patsy's paint brushes.
 
TortElvisII

TortElvisII

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May 7, 2010
51,665
96,899
66
They are shooting down intruder theory. I could see brother or mother.
 
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B

Bill Derington

Heisman
Jan 21, 2003
21,528
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113
Mdwildcat, Burke didn't wake her from a dead sleep, at least that's not what he said on Dr Phil. He specifically said that he and her went to the basement to play approx 11PM.
He put himself in the basement with her.

She ate pineapple, his DNA was on the pineapple dish too, and there was a glass of tea with the moms DNA next to it.

They probably got hungry, got mom, she opened the pineapple and had tea. She was exhausted from a long day and let the kids go play and she went to bed.

However I believe you're correct about Occam's razor.
 
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ndk_rivals308474

Sophomore
Feb 8, 2004
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I tend to think it was either a fit of rage by mom or the brother just lot his cool with his 4 year old sister who was annoying him late at night. I think if it were genuinely an accident during innocent playing by the brother, the first response by him and the family would be to call for help. No one thinks "oh, my 10 year old is going away for life" when he innocently injures a sibling.

So, the instinct by mom to cover it up after the fact leads me to believe that she knew there was not an innocent or accidental cause. Whether it was her or the brother who lost their temper, we'll probably never know.
 
TortElvisII

TortElvisII

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May 7, 2010
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Even for a weird little kid he is a weird little kid. I changed my vote. The DA and some detectives really obfuscated this case.
 
J

JBHolmesfan

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I turned it on when they were showing the brother in the interview where he was talking about avoiding the press and that he's just trying to move on with his life. I haven't watched any of the show and am unfamiliar with the case. From having read this thread and watching the brother speak my guess is he did it. His interviews were really odd. For someone who just killed his sister or knows what happened to his sister he has seemingly no emotions towards. Just a very weird kid.
 
LineSkiCat14

LineSkiCat14

Heisman
Aug 5, 2015
38,179
59,634
113
You all have it backwards.. The mom killed Jean Claude Van Damme, because someone who puts their 5 year old into beauty pageants is already unhinged.. And Burke helped cover it up to keep his mom safe, because who else is gonna buy him his pineapple?
 
TortElvisII

TortElvisII

Heisman
May 7, 2010
51,665
96,899
66
Leaving a softball sized ball of poop in your sisters room is weird. Rubbing poo on her Christmas Candy screams he was jealous. She took over and he wanted to be number 1 again.

Werner Spitz and I think there may have been intent. Everyone else is going with accident. I doubt he planned it but he intended to do harm.
 
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LineSkiCat14

LineSkiCat14

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The important question..

How do we rate the blond investigator? She's a solid 6, maybe a 7.
 
G

Guess Who

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the nail at the foul line said:
Leaving a softball sized ball of poop in your sisters room is weird. Rubbing poo on her Christmas Candy screams he was jealous. She took over and he wanted to be number 1 again.

Werner Spitz and I think there may have been intent. Everyone else is going with accident. I doubt he planned it but he intended to do harm.
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Agreed. The poop detail was a bit too much. What a little butthead of serious jealousy. That boy is just a bad seed imo. Also Dr Lee was impressive of the perspective that the dna doesn't mean squat in this case finding oddball dna on the brand new packaged underwear. Difficult to go with the intruder theory anymore
 
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Bill Derington

Heisman
Jan 21, 2003
21,528
39,877
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the nail at the foul line said:
Leaving a softball sized ball of poop in your sisters room is weird. Rubbing poo on her Christmas Candy screams he was jealous. She took over and he wanted to be number 1 again.

Werner Spitz and I think there may have been intent. Everyone else is going with accident. I doubt he planned it but he intended to do harm.
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I said before that I thought he accidentally killed her, I believe he wanted to hurt her.

However, I'm not so sure now if he didn't intend to kill her. How does a 10 year old kid not show any remorse in his sister being dead? You would think he would've slipped up and said something while in the interview with shrink.
That kid was smart and warped in my opinion.
 
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Guess Who

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Food for thought here. Every time Patsy spoke out re loss of child, who did it etc she always seemed less than sincere like being preoccupied by the fact she's covering. They were never relentless with a campaign to find the real killer let's say. Let's use the Natalie Hollaway case for a comparable. The mom was on a mission on all fronts til the truth pretty much surfaced and she in an exemplary fashion used the press to help her every step of the way. Ramsey's are fos! They merely did nothing to pursue the case.
 
UK_Dallas

UK_Dallas

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Sep 17, 2015
14,551
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Not sure how anyone could continue to believe it was an intruder after watching this special. It's seems clear that the investigators at the time thought it was the brother and the parents covered it up. And that's the same conclusion the modern day investigators came to.

On a side note, I thought this special was very well done. Would love to see that group or a similar group tackle more unsolved crimes in the future.
 
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