Will the last person leaving the CPS turn off the lights?

[pjjp]

then there are these ******** who spend every moment they can looking to rape the system, underperform, and we the people paying them can have ZERO say so!

And these are the employees that public sector unions protect.

It's amazing the lengths that these unions go to "protect" bad employees. Could cite numerous examples. In my experience, one really has to work at it to get fired, when one has a public sector union protecting him or her. Bogus work comp. claims? No problem. The union will be your advocate at the hearings. Fired for just cause by a management employee who was once in the union? No problem. The union will fight to get your job back. And, if you were off work for say 18 months after the termination, your employer will be required to pay you those 18 months that you were not on the job. And, of course, those 18 months will be added back to your seniority for pension purposes. Thank you taxpayers. Public sector unions are all about serving the greater good by "protecting" the union employee and making sure your tax dollars are well spent.

 

[PRokie]

I play hand ball three days a week and I am not able to do it any more either at that level either. You cousin is the kind of guy that I would trust my six with thou.

I was not putting all teachers in same basket but w/o merit pay too many kids are failing, and yes parent/grandparents are dropping the ball.

Unions have a purpose but the CTU has gone to great levels to protect the worst 20% of which many are paid not to teacher but to sit in the faculty lounge all day long.

Now think what you could do with two more full-time football coaches and maybe three full time counselors if you got rid of 5 do nothings.

He had these medals he handed out.. they were for his rig and engine co. In Amarillo.. he always wanted to see some CFD medallions..
My kids have his... pretty cool

 

[Cross Bones]

Agreed. I was blessed!!!

But if the CPS did a better job there would not be 700 homicides this year and counting. People would be going to college and not selling drugs. CPS may have the highest dropout rate in any urban area.

Think about the football programs if the schools kept students for all four years in a safe learning environment.

This is plain dumb. You can't expect teachers to fix centuries worth of failure of society on several levels with their 12 years of educational instruction. Perhaps if that $500,000,000.00 handed out to families because your buddies like to murder people was instead re-invested into neighborhoods the murder rate would be lower.

 

[Brin22]

This is plain dumb. You can't expect teachers to fix centuries worth of failure of society on several levels with their 12 years of educational instruction. Perhaps if that $500,000,000.00 handed out to families because your buddies like to murder people was instead re-invested into neighborhoods the murder rate would be lower.

cfd,

you'll find that cb is divisive and a police agitator. he can play games and try to mask it, but those are his true colors...you'll find it best to move on and never respond to him again.

 

[cornerrat]

And these are the employees that public sector unions protect.

It's amazing the lengths that these unions go to "protect" bad employees. Could cite numerous examples. In my experience, one really has to work at it to get fired, when one has a public sector union protecting him or her. Bogus work comp. claims? No problem. The union will be your advocate at the hearings. Fired for just cause by a management employee who was once in the union? No problem. The union will fight to get your job back. And, if you were off work for say 18 months after the termination, your employer will be required to pay you those 18 months that you were not on the job. And, of course, those 18 months will be added back to your seniority for pension purposes. Thank you taxpayers. Public sector unions are all about serving the greater good by "protecting" the union employee and making sure your tax dollars are well spent.

All.... I find your critique troubling. My "other" job is being a union steward. Protecting the contract and representing members is what I am tasked to do.

This might be a rather simplistic reply but like attorneys the union (steward) is required to fight to the best of their ability for rank and file when needed. Lastly and this is key in my experience for every union member that could be deemed subpar there is easily an equal amount of management running amok . This is why the union exists. In any organization top to bottom one will have their bad apples.... Ratsy

 

[pjjp]

All.... I find your critique troubling. My "other" job is being a union steward. Protecting the contract and representing members is what I am tasked to do.

This might be a rather simplistic reply but like attorneys the union (steward) is required to fight to the best of their ability for rank and file when needed. Lastly and this is key in my experience for every union member that could be deemed subpar there is easily an equal amount of management running amok . This is why the union exists. In any organization top to bottom one will have their bad apples.... Ratsy

In principle, I agree. Union stewards are doing their jobs by acting as an advocate for their members. Not sure if you are a public sector union steward, but that is an important distinction. In the public sector, many unions have strong political affiliations. Many of these unions push hard to get "their people" elected. Once they are, a quid pro quo relationship exists. The union was key in getting the person in office, now he/she represents the union's interests, even if those interests run counter to the citizens that the elected officials were allegedly elected to serve. At the local and state levels, public sector unions are one of the strongest special interest groups, and many times their interests run counter to the everyday citizen. So, who does those elected officials serve? The union member or the citizen?

Also, I have no doubt you have run into poor performing management employees. However, if said management employee screws up, who will represent him/her? Will there be a union steward there for him/her? No, and that means they are personally accountable for their actions. Big difference from their union counterparts. And it's a question of degree. In my experience, public sector unions have greatly reduced the level of needed personal accountability for their rank and file.

 

[cornerrat]

In principle, I agree. Union stewards are doing their jobs by acting as an advocate for their members. Not sure if you are a public sector union steward, but that is an important distinction. In the public sector, many unions have strong political affiliations. Many of these unions push hard to get "their people" elected. Once they are, a quid pro quo relationship exists. The union was key in getting the person in office, now he/she represents the union's interests, even if those interests run counter to the citizens that the elected officials were allegedly elected to serve. At the local and state levels, public sector unions are one of the strongest special interest groups, and many times their interests run counter to the everyday citizen. So, who does those elected officials serve? The union member or the citizen?

Also, I have no doubt you have run into poor performing management employees. However, if said management employee screws up, who will represent him/her? Will there be a union steward there for him/her? No, and that means they are personally accountable for their actions. Big difference from their union counterparts. And it's a question of degree. In my experience, public sector unions have greatly reduced the level of needed personal accountability for their rank and file.

All..... I am a state employee. As a steward I represent Afscme. Been quite busy lately. (lol) When it comes to who is beholding to who I don't as a rule see much difference between the public and private sector. In Springfield special interest lobby groups after legislators are legion. Although I find this a bit distasteful sitting on the sidelines without lobby help can be a slow long death. A necessary evil I suppose.

Your point on management. I can't speak for other agencies just mine. I have seen plenty of errors by management with some type of discipline as a result but never a termination to the best of my knowledge. There is a union by the way that does represent merit comp employees (most of these individuals are in management) and there are federal laws on the books that protect employees from wrongful termination. Ratsy

 

[UlbKA91]

What kills me is there are teachers that couldn't be paid enough for what they give our children!!! I mean real, awesome, life changing great educators!!!

then there are these ******** who spend every moment they can looking to rape the system, underperform, and we the people paying them can have ZERO say so!

How can someone literally EXPECT AND DEMAND to receive an pension they have put SO LITTLE into from a job with almost no REAL performance standards. Not to mention the people who pay their salaries have no way of ever knowing the reality of their performance, and even if we did, you couldn't get rid of them even if they suck!!

I feel horrible for the good ones... if we could only identify them without a union that thrives on protecting and rewarding mediocrity and under performers.

I think the STEM teachers should break out of the existing unions and have one of the trades pick them up (municipal staff accountants have been in iuoe 150, for example) or use the trade unions guidance to form a new separate union.

 

[Cross Bones]

cfd,

you'll find that cb is divisive and a police agitator. he can play games and try to mask it, but those are his true colors...you'll find it best to move on and never respond to him again.

Clown, these are the facts. You two clowns (cfd) sit up here and disparage teachers because you clearly didnt learn a thing in school, most notably your inability to actually think. I'm pointing out facts, as mc140 pointed out its comical for a person who works 1/3 of the year and spends most of the time doing nothing to criticize someone who works 180 days per year and often times countless hours after the school day is over in some bad conditions. I have no patience for the type of idiot you and he are and in Trump's america im going to tell it how it is.

With over half a billion dollars in settlements supporting me--and millions of dollars in legal issues with the cfd in supplement of what Im saying.

Meanwhile you have fake news in your corner.

 

[Brin22]

You two clowns (cfd) sit up here and disparage teachers because you clearly didnt learn a thing in school, most notably your inability to actually think.

Here's another fact, I have never said a disparaging thing about teachers. Get your facts straight before you start accusing me of disparaging teachers. My quote is below. I'll be back in a little bit to see how your apology is coming along.

personally, don't think parents get their share of the blame. teachers only with the kids a couple hours a day. schools not meant to raise kids.

 

[Gene K.]

Interesting topic. Have a lot of respect for teachers, firemen, union reps, etc. There are a lot of really good teachers in the CPS. Great firemen if the CFD who risk their lives daily and public sector union reps who do an outstanding job protecting their constituents from unneeded discipline at the hands of management. I come from management in CPD (30 years+) and elsewhere and have worked with all of the above to try and make it better for everyone. But, lets face it there are bad police officers, firemen, teachers and union reps too. Not taking sides in this but just sharing my experience working with the above. The bad ones of the groups being discussed on this tread cause serious damage to the reputation of the good public sector employees who do an outstanding job.

Taxpayer money is being spent on teachers who can't teach and other public sector employees who should never have been given a job in the first place. The real disgrace is who in management hired them and allowed them to continue during their probationary periods on the job. I have personally terminated several probationary employees who were either not capable of handling the job or were otherwise unsuitable for the job.

Speaking from experience it is exceedingly hard to terminate someone who gets past the probationary period but it can be done with lots documentation and history of poor performance. A lot of people in management don't want to take the time to do it, are
too lazy to write all that is needed or quite frankly don't have the knowledge or backbone to do so.

Politicians are reluctant to address this issue as they fear losing voters and political backing (dollars and support ringing door bells) from powerful large group organizations

As for all the taxpayer money being spent on police and fire law suit settlement. It is disgraceful that such large amounts of taxpayer money is spent to settle these cases Some of these lawsuits are well merited but speaking from experience many are bogus. I do know that the corporation councils (lawyers) from the City, at least while I was employed there, routinely settled law suits that if they went to court would be thrown out. The answer I got when complaining about such a case was it was cheaper to settle the case than to go to court. I was also told at that time that the City of Chicago did not have to represent me even though I was acting as their employee at the time. Knowing that the complainants in the lawsuit were lying through the teeth and deserved nothing left me with a bitter feelings about how these law suits are adjudicated. There are a multitude of lawyers who make a living suing the city and its employees and it won't change until most of these case are taken to a court of law for adjudication and not in the hands of the municipal attorneys.

 

[pjjp]

My experience was with one of the largest municipalities in the state (not Chicago).

The real disgrace is who in management hired them and allowed them to continue during their probationary periods on the job. I have personally terminated several probationary employees who were either not capable of handling the job or were otherwise unsuitable for the job.

The muni where I worked had Police and Fire Boards who oversaw the hiring process. Third party firms conducted psychological evaluations. Other firms oversaw physical and agility testing for public safety employees. A list was then formulated, giving priority to the highest scoring candidates. Of course, that all sounds great. But, political partisanship played a huge role. Management had very little to do with the hiring process, at least on the surface. And, there was enough subjectivity built into the process that those with "connections" seemed to score very well in the final evaluation. Imagine that.

Speaking from experience it is exceedingly hard to terminate someone who gets past the probationary period but it can be done with lots documentation and history of poor performance. A lot of people in management don't want to take the time to do it, are
too lazy to write all that is needed or quite frankly don't have the knowledge or backbone to do so.

Politicians are reluctant to address this issue as they fear losing voters and political backing (dollars and support ringing door bells) from powerful large group organizations

And it depends if it's a "union" town. Politicians, who were backed by the unions, are beholden. They can exert tremendous influence in the termination process...or getting someone reinstated.

As for all the taxpayer money being spent on police and fire law suit settlement. It is disgraceful that such large amounts of taxpayer money is spent to settle these cases Some of these lawsuits are well merited but speaking from experience many are bogus. I do know that the corporation councils (lawyers) from the City, at least while I was employed there, routinely settled law suits that if they went to court would be thrown out. The answer I got when complaining about such a case was it was cheaper to settle the case than to go to court. I was also told at that time that the City of Chicago did not have to represent me even though I was acting as their employee at the time. Knowing that the complainants in the lawsuit were lying through the teeth and deserved nothing left me with a bitter feelings about how these law suits are adjudicated. There are a multitude of lawyers who make a living suing the city and its employees and it won't change until most of these case are taken to a court of law for adjudication and not in the hands of the municipal attorneys.

Agree 100% with this. After I left, the muni where I worked eliminated the in-house legal department. The only position that remained was the Corporation Counsel. Most of the work is now outsourced. IMO, you will see more and more outsourcing in the public sector. For instance, it's a lot cheaper to hire contractors to plow city streets. You don't have to pay the exorbitant salaries and generous benefit packages, and that type of work isn't exactly skilled labor. The irony? The many successes of public sector unions in getting their rank and file generous pay and lucrative benefit packages may be their ultimate undoing. Of course, they and their union will call on their elected representatives to fight a move like that whenever possible. Even "union" towns may succumb eventually, though. The financial realities of high salaries, ever escalating pension obligations and enormous health care costs (for active employees and retirees in many munis) may force their hands.

 

[Cross Bones]

As for all the taxpayer money being spent on police and fire law suit settlement. It is disgraceful that such large amounts of taxpayer money is spent to settle these cases Some of these lawsuits are well merited but speaking from experience many are bogus. I do know that the corporation councils (lawyers) from the City, at least while I was employed there, routinely settled law suits that if they went to court would be thrown out. The answer I got when complaining about such a case was it was cheaper to settle the case than to go to court. I was also told at that time that the City of Chicago did not have to represent me even though I was acting as their employee at the time. Knowing that the complainants in the lawsuit were lying through the teeth and deserved nothing left me with a bitter feelings about how these law suits are adjudicated. There are a multitude of lawyers who make a living suing the city and its employees and it won't change until most of these case are taken to a court of law for adjudication and not in the hands of the municipal attorneys.

It's what I do for a living--decide when to settle and when to go to trial. In my industry there is an epidemic of merit-less suits filed or rather issues that could be easily resolved without lawsuit. On the other hand some stuff comes across my desk you just wonder how it happened and settle as quickly as you can. What I have to discern is whether there is a legit argument to be made, how it would play in front of a jury (or judge in a bench trial), the repercussions of a guilty verdict from a PR perspective, and yes the cost to defend vs the settlement amount.

But here's the thing, how many of these instances with merit go uncharged? How much would be paid if these went to trial and were found guilty instead of settled? What would the public say if the details were actually to get out? What type of problems would they have then?

 

[pjjp]

But here's the thing, how many of these instances with merit go uncharged? How much would be paid if these went to trial and were found guilty instead of settled? What would the public say if the details were actually to get out? What type of problems would they have then?

Bingo. In the public sector, bad PR is avoided whenever possible. It's why city's are so quick to settle.

 

[Cross Bones]

Bingo. In the public sector, bad PR is avoided whenever possible. It's why city's are so quick to settle.

Private as well.

Sometimes in discovery you learn something that even though you may be correct, you simply cannot allow out. And if it does get out is damages your brand to varying degrees. In that case aren't you already guilty? I don't think that is limited to the public sector. Look what the WWE had to do to Hulk Hogan and Chris Benoit. Look at the LA Clippers and Donald Sterling. Once their "testimony"/words got out their companies had to sever ties.

 

[Gene K.]

My experience was with one of the largest municipalities in the state (not Chicago).


The muni where I worked had Police and Fire Boards who oversaw the hiring process. Third party firms conducted psychological evaluations. Other firms oversaw physical and agility testing for public safety employees. A list was then formulated, giving priority to the highest scoring candidates. Of course, that all sounds great. But, political partisanship played a huge role. Management had very little to do with the hiring process, at least on the surface. And, there was enough subjectivity built into the process that those with "connections" seemed to score very well in the final evaluation. Imagine that.

And it depends if it's a "union" town. Politicians, who were backed by the unions, are beholden. They can exert tremendous influence in the termination process...or getting someone reinstated.

Agree 100% with this. After I left, the muni where I worked eliminated the in-house legal department. The only position that remained was the Corporation Counsel. Most of the work is now outsourced. IMO, you will see more and more outsourcing in the public sector. For instance, it's a lot cheaper to hire contractors to plow city streets. You don't have to pay the exorbitant salaries and generous benefit packages, and that type of work isn't exactly skilled labor. The irony? The many successes of public sector unions in getting their rank and file generous pay and lucrative benefit packages may be their ultimate undoing. Of course, they and their union will call on their elected representatives to fight a move like that whenever possible. Even "union" towns may succumb eventually, though. The financial realities of high salaries, ever escalating pension obligations and enormous health care costs (for active employees and retirees in many munis) may force their hands.

PJJP: I agree with everything you wrote. First off the CPD when I was there did not have psychological evaluations nor lie detector exams. Went to the personnel section and asked why not and I personally seen a letter sent to the mayor requesting this but it was denied. There is a lot of political interference in the hiring process. My problem is when these individuals with clout are allowed on the job or given assignments in sensitive units which they are totally unqualified for. Seen it many times and it definitely hurt the working environment for the other qualified individuals assigned.

Quite frequently these same individuals are favored with merit promotion (with higher pay) which they did not earn while other more deserving individuals are left out. Did not matter if you were a black, Hispanic or white person if you didn't have that stinger tough luck to you. Terrible for the morale of those people who see whats going on and are powerless to do anything about it. There is no respect from the rank and file for these clouted individuals which leads to disciplinary problems, poor work effort, etc. Then when the crap hits the fan, the taxpayers wonder how could this have happened.

The termination process for a municipal employee in the city and elsewhere is cumbersome, lengthy and oft times politically influenced. I worked in IAD for 4 years and felt the FOP did a good job for their constituents but many times the reps were not happy having to defend some of the more serious cases. I also know that in many cases the Superintendent recommended dismissal and the police board left some of these people on the job. Political influence?

 

[Gene K.]

It's what I do for a living--decide when to settle and when to go to trial. In my industry there is an epidemic of merit-less suits filed or rather issues that could be easily resolved without lawsuit. On the other hand some stuff comes across my desk you just wonder how it happened and settle as quickly as you can. What I have to discern is whether there is a legit argument to be made, how it would play in front of a jury (or judge in a bench trial), the repercussions of a guilty verdict from a PR perspective, and yes the cost to defend vs the settlement amount.

But here's the thing, how many of these instances with merit go uncharged? How much would be paid if these went to trial and were found guilty instead of settled? What would the public say if the details were actually to get out? What type of problems would they have then?

Mostly agree with you Bones. My thought is that the cases with merit against any employee should be brought into the light of day. Understand why some of these cases are settled but also know that individuals who do not face the consequences of their actions are doomed to do something stupid or worst again and again. I always tried to look at the intent of an individuals action before recommending disciplinary procedures but ultimately looked at what was best for the organization or law enforcement in general. The reputation of any organization should only get better if the general public sees a concerted effort for full disclosure of wrong doing by its employees. The disclosure should be followed by real action to rectify and eliminate the types of incidents that happened from happening again. Sends a strong message to your employees as well as the general public.

 

[pjjp]

PJJP: I agree with everything you wrote. First off the CPD when I was there did not have psychological evaluations nor lie detector exams. Went to the personnel section and asked why not and I personally seen a letter sent to the mayor requesting this but it was denied. There is a lot of political interference in the hiring process. My problem is when these individuals with clout are allowed on the job or given assignments in sensitive units which they are totally unqualified for. Seen it many times and it definitely hurt the working environment for the other qualified individuals assigned.

Quite frequently these same individuals are favored with merit promotion (with higher pay) which they did not earn while other more deserving individuals are left out. Did not matter if you were a black, Hispanic or white person if you didn't have that stinger tough luck to you. Terrible for the morale of those people who see whats going on and are powerless to do anything about it. There is no respect from the rank and file for these clouted individuals which leads to disciplinary problems, poor work effort, etc. Then when the crap hits the fan, the taxpayers wonder how could this have happened.

No doubt. You are preaching to the choir, Gene. The sense of entitlement of those politically connected hires is also a major issue and plays into all the situations you cited above.