the Big 12-2=10 implodes because either Tx or Ok leave for greener pastures? Give me your real world thoughts on real world options. Please no "go to the Big 10, SEC or ACC". Those options are not on the way in the real world...SEC and ACC have turned down WVU too often and the Big 10 (or whatever they call it now) doesn't need any WVU market anymore.
WVU options if...
- Thread starter Rootmaster
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Rootmaster - SEC and ACC would still be options. If WVU would have been available when Maryland left the ACC we would have been the replacement. Things change with every conference expansion. Lots of if depends on where OU and Texas goes. And if the Big 10 or SEC also pick up teams from the ACC. The Big 10 is the only one that would seem to be a real longshot because of academics.
If Oklahoma/Texas are leaving the Big 12, then the entire dynamic has changed. For example, if Texas joins the Big Ten, then that's probably touching off an entire new round of expansion. (Possibly the 4-conference model so often mentioned.) That would mean the SEC and ACC would be looking to expand, and would be looking at teams (i.e. West Virginia) that they haven't otherwise considered.
Woody. Why would SEC or ACC still be options? (Our hope doesn't count as an option!) Seriously...these two conferences have left WVU out in the cold more than once. In fact, the ACC was formed in 1953 from part of the old Southern Conference and the schools forming the ACC specifically did not want WVU...and recent history says that has not changed. Fact is: WVU has tried to get into several conferences in the past and they said "no thanks." Can't see their attitude changing. Bottom line is WV is a small state without much media clout and a spotted history of football success. I wish we were in a demand position but I can't see it. Openings in the ACC or SEC are not going to happen.
The reason the ACC and SEC would still be in play is that in your scenario, the ACC and SEC are going to need to add more teams, for two reasons. 1) If Texas and Oklahoma leave, the SEC might be taking one of them, so they need at least one more team. 2) If Texas and Oklahoma leave for another conference, the SEC and ACC are most likely going to expand in order to renegotiate their TV contracts, so as to keep pace financially with the other conference(s) that expanded. (Remember, both the ACC and Big Ten expanded in reaction to the SEC taking A&M and Missouri.) In this case, the conferences are going to need more teams, and they are going to go for the best teams available. Something that happened in 1950 has no relevance to modern expansion.
History always has relevance if people would only study it. LOL WV is not going to add a major metro market or another 20 million people within the state's borders to increase clout. If WVU was such a lock for any phase of ACC or SEC expansion (past, present, or future)...it would have happened already. They have spoken with their choices...other than WVU unfortunately.There is a reason why low population, low metro area, and low media states like WVU, Wyoming, New Mexico, Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota etc end up being on the outside of the glass looking in.
My point continues to be that WVU needs to work with the Big 12-2=10 to strengthen and expand that conference with, or without, Tx or Ok. A lot of schools in the AAC offer strengths that Morgantown, Ames, Lubbock, Stillwater etc do not in today's glutted communications world.Some combination of the two conferences would go a long way to stabilizing the Mountaineer athletic future whether folks egos will admit it or not.
My point continues to be that WVU needs to work with the Big 12-2=10 to strengthen and expand that conference with, or without, Tx or Ok. A lot of schools in the AAC offer strengths that Morgantown, Ames, Lubbock, Stillwater etc do not in today's glutted communications world.Some combination of the two conferences would go a long way to stabilizing the Mountaineer athletic future whether folks egos will admit it or not.
No, sorry, history isn't always relevant. The landscape of college football has completely changed since 1950. The motivations for choosing teams back then is different than the reasons today. You don't even have to go that far back. When the Big 8 formed the Big 12 back in 95, they took 4 teams from one state. That would not happen today. That's because back in 95, the conferences didn't have separate TV contracts. They had a collective contract under the CFA. Market footprint wasn't as big of an issue back then, because your TV contract was in conjunction with the ACC, SEC, etc. Now your contract is completely dependent just on your own conference. That means you would choose different teams than you would 20,30, 50 years ago.
If Oklahoma and Texas leave they probably take OSU and TT with them. That really only leaves 3 possible options. The Big12 dissolves and WVU gets picked up by either the ACC or SEC along with most of the remaining Big12 schools going to other P5 conferences. The Big12 dissolves and WVU is left out in the cold and is forced to either rejoin the AAC or try to survive as a independent. The Big stays together and adds probably 6-8 schools from AAC/ConUSA and is still a decent conference. I really don't see any other possible options.
I personally believe if the Big12 breaks apart the ACC will want to add West Virginia and Cincinnati or UConn. Probably UConn.
Excluding all other factors, it has been beyond dumb that UConn has not been invited to join the ACC. Swafford must be a true moron to miss this option, but hey this man was only just an pinch smarter than Tranghese. Allowing BC to have veto power on inviting UConn is incredible. BC must have photos of Swafford and Sandusky or something.
Why would the ACC suddenly want to add WVU ? For what purpose? tv market...no. cable subscribers...no. national championships...no. growing state...no. etc. OK now for the SEC...same questions...same answers. WVU would have to work to have the Big 12 name remain with what other schools remain and add major markets through AAC teams. Of course no legendary team would mean very tough negotiations with FOX and ESPN. Best option is to push hard and harder for immediate Big 12 expansion to provide breathing room.
Apples and oranges. WVU's value and metrics are different depending on the conference in question. The SEC is not worried about markets, they can add two total dead weights and not care. Same for the Big Ten. Their deals are so good they can absorb a hit like that and not notice. The ACC is only more stable at the present than the Big-12 is because it has more members and a CCG. That's it.
There is a lot of hand wringing going on and 99% of it is speculative and fill in the blank with the worst scenario and then report it has fact. Even the various members of the universities are not fully reliable as a source because they are not involved in this process. That is hard for some to fathom, but boards are not that engaged in running anything in any company. They are nameplates that bring a network of contacts and money flows into their interest. They do not run around doing actual work such as being involved in expansion.
Even presidents of a university have a full time job of running the university. It is why they are forced to delegate so much to the AD or legal or conference commissioner. Even those people and departments delegate - such as the Boren-Gee-Starr committee.
The process is not doing anything unusual and nothing unusual is happening. At the end of the day, people at this level of decision making often choose to do nothing than to make a mistake on even a weak account of risk. Glacial is the normal speed of progress.
The ACC now has three MORE former conference mates of WVU... ...who imo would support adding WVU. Plus, Maryland is gone... ...and beyond rumors we don't know their previous opinion about WVU joining the ACC.
The ACC, even if in a naive fashion, has actually tipped the power of voting on conference matters by a large percentage toward northern teams.
WVU certainly is sitting better now.
Here's why the ACC would add West Virginia. If they are expanding, it's either a) in reaction to other P5 conferences expanding, or b) Notre Dame is joining and they need a partner. The ACC isn't going to benefit by adding mid-major teams like Memphis. The best available option for the ACC would be West Virginia. Does West Virginia have a good TV market? No, but it is a new market, and the other available schools don't deliver the market they are in. West Virginia also has more stature than any of the other available teams, by far.
For the SEC, if they can't raid any ACC teams, their only option would be Big 12 teams. West Virginia would actually make sense in that regard, since that would balance out the East-West split.
Rootmaster - if Texas and Oklahoma bolt. The remaining members of the Big 12 will not stay together as a Power Conference - If they stay together they will be dropped back to the same level as the AAC and MWC. If Oklahoma and Texas bolt then the four remaining conferences will expand to at least 16. The Big 10 or the SEC could poach an ACC team or two. Thus the ACC would be looking for new members and they would not take any current group of 5 team over WVU. The current 5 Power Conferences total 64 teams plus ND.
And in 1952 the ACC was very concerned that you could not get to Morgantown easily. Also WVU voted to penalize MD and Clemson because they ignored the Southern Conference bowl ban in 1951.
And in 1952 the ACC was very concerned that you could not get to Morgantown easily. Also WVU voted to penalize MD and Clemson because they ignored the Southern Conference bowl ban in 1951.
I keep seeing this line of reasoning but nowhere, except in internet forum wish lists, has this ever been brought up by the strong conferences.
In addition, if Ok and Tx control WVU that completely maybe we should join together with the other seven schools and name Ok and Tx champions every other year and just not play the game.
The ACC has always voted no on WVU - read that as Duke and UNC - and those two are the king and queen of the ACC - I'll let them figure out who has the skirt on. But, as WVU was in the process of going to the Big12, the ACC did call WVU to see if we would be interested in going there instead. Oliver Luck thought the process was too far along and I would add, that even if the ACC did invite WVU in, WVU would always be treated like pure crap. It is the same mentality that keeps UConn out.
The kind of response someone makes when they can't refute an argument on a logical basis.
Its doubtful there will ever be a "P4".
The BIG 12 is a solid 3rd in revenues--with Texas really above everyone in college sports and OU, KU and WVU either right at or just below the top leagues.
Other BIG 12 schools are behind, but ACC and Pac 12 schools are far behind and dropping.
There will be the Big Ten and the SEC and then the Pac 12 has a chance--if they could land Texas with the help of the BIg Ten in 2023-24 when their contracts are up. The ACC is likely to be broken up.
Notre Dame will try to keep its independence and will likely form a privates conference with lots of ACC schools and schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt--maybe even USC. They didn't want to join 8 schools when they could, they certainly won't want to join 15 (or more).
Any way its sliced there are going to be more than four conferences probably with P5 level teams in them.
Here's a hypothetical breakout if things move around a bit
Big Ten
Ohio State
Michigan
MSU
PSU
Maryland
Rutgers
UVA
UNC
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Minnesota
Illinois
Purdue
Kansas
Indiana
SEC
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Tennessee
South Carolina
VT
NC State
Kentucky
Alabama
LSU
Oklahoma
Arkansas
A&M
Ole Miss
Miss State
Missouri
Pac 16
Texas
Texas Tech
TCU
OK State
ISU
Kansas State
Utah
Colorado
UCLA
CAL
Ore
Ore State
Washington
Wazzou
AZ
AZ State
Notre Dame Conference
ND (Ind)
Stanford
USC
Nwestern
Vanderbilt
Tulane
Rice
GT
Syracuse
BC
Duke
Wake
Navy
The ? 16 Conference
FSU
Clemson
WVU
Miami
Pitt
Temple
UConn
ECU
Baylor
Cincinnati
Houston
Louisville
Memphis
SMU
Colorado State
BYU
The BIG 12 is a solid 3rd in revenues--with Texas really above everyone in college sports and OU, KU and WVU either right at or just below the top leagues.
Other BIG 12 schools are behind, but ACC and Pac 12 schools are far behind and dropping.
There will be the Big Ten and the SEC and then the Pac 12 has a chance--if they could land Texas with the help of the BIg Ten in 2023-24 when their contracts are up. The ACC is likely to be broken up.
Notre Dame will try to keep its independence and will likely form a privates conference with lots of ACC schools and schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt--maybe even USC. They didn't want to join 8 schools when they could, they certainly won't want to join 15 (or more).
Any way its sliced there are going to be more than four conferences probably with P5 level teams in them.
Here's a hypothetical breakout if things move around a bit
Big Ten
Ohio State
Michigan
MSU
PSU
Maryland
Rutgers
UVA
UNC
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Minnesota
Illinois
Purdue
Kansas
Indiana
SEC
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Tennessee
South Carolina
VT
NC State
Kentucky
Alabama
LSU
Oklahoma
Arkansas
A&M
Ole Miss
Miss State
Missouri
Pac 16
Texas
Texas Tech
TCU
OK State
ISU
Kansas State
Utah
Colorado
UCLA
CAL
Ore
Ore State
Washington
Wazzou
AZ
AZ State
Notre Dame Conference
ND (Ind)
Stanford
USC
Nwestern
Vanderbilt
Tulane
Rice
GT
Syracuse
BC
Duke
Wake
Navy
The ? 16 Conference
FSU
Clemson
WVU
Miami
Pitt
Temple
UConn
ECU
Baylor
Cincinnati
Houston
Louisville
Memphis
SMU
Colorado State
BYU
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Seriously...enough already...this topic in sordid variations has been beaten Iike a rented mule in thousands of messages from yourself and the other usual suspect responding in this thread...thousands and thousands of messages of the same conjecture with all the same yip yap, responded to by the same 2 or 3...It's tired....Please let it go......this is madness!!!!
He wakes up in the dead of night....EVERY night screaming EXPANSION!!!! OH GOD I NEED EXPANSION!!!!
A mere mention of the topic certainly seems to produce "expansion" in a few posters' pants.
Does it ever Go...hoping all is well out west there with yourself! Man I need to get back out that way soon...had such a good time touring about Cali last year....
Seriously- enough already! Can't you see this is a message board for discussion? Just the MENTION of realignment and you guys are on here at all hrs of the day or night ranting about people having a conversation on a MESSAGE BOARD that's for POSTING MESSAGES?
And derailing threads so you can have a personal chat to boot!? Get a life ! Text each other if you want a chitchat about your bromance. People are having conversations on this MESSAGE BOARD.
And derailing threads so you can have a personal chat to boot!? Get a life ! Text each other if you want a chitchat about your bromance. People are having conversations on this MESSAGE BOARD.
Okay Dave, I suppose you are talking to Buck. What is he making up? Why is he talking to himself? And, who is he talking down to? And why does he need to be called out?
I don't agree with everything he says, but the dude does research, presents solid positions and is right...this is a forum for discussion. Or, maybe you see the world differently being a "Hall of Fame" status kind of poster?
Since when has WVU been left out? Other than the 1950s when schools broke from the Southern Conf. and formed the ACC leaving WVU behind, WVU was invited into the BE and now the Big 12.
You sure included WVU awfully easy with those other states that don't have the fanbase of WVU, or the close media markets like Pittsburgh and Maryland/DC area, or past success and history.
I agree that even if any combination of OU and OSU or UT and TTU would leave the rest behind, the remaining schools joining with the best of the AAC wouldn't be as bad as people think.
But one thing to consider, if it's true as some have said here in the past that OU can't leave without OSU or UT leaving without TTU, that then puts the OU-UT Juggernaut in a bit of a bind if the Pac-12 or SEC doesn't want those other schools that are supposed to be politically attached to OU and UT.
Finally, it's really annoying when you keep typing "Big 12-2=10." What's the point? Everyone knows the name of the conference and how many schools are in it right now.
Marriage for you two is legal. I had nothing to do with my status. Dont hate just because you dont know. I will just ignore you as I did him so you too ladies can chit chat and I wont be bored to death.
A little off-topic.. but I've showed that I'm a Hall Of Fame poster... ..but like Pete Rose.. ...have a couple of issues not related to talent keeping me out.
We'll get there though...
I thought Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were joined at the hip and the Oklahoma education powers wouldn't let a conference take one without taking the other. In that case, that conference wouldn't need WVU.
Oklahoma and OSU are joined at the hip. Oklahoma is going no where without OSU. But, some people never let a good fantasy get fouled with reality.
No WVU fan wants WVU to be left out, but if the BIG 12 doesn't get a positive outcome with a network, expansion and a CCG then WVU has to be prepared. Why? Because things aren't going to just stay the same. The conference will fall behind and the likelihood of schools leaving goes up dramatically. The only schools in the conference that people are clamoring for are Oklahoma - for its tradition and success, and Texas-for its tradition, recruits and the money UT will bring to another conference. Everyone else ? Anything can happen, but if things are consolidating then you aren't going to want that situation to have a possibility of impacting your school.
If there is a series of expansion, its a slam dunk WVU ends up in ACC. They will for sure lose teams
B1G and SEC are too far ahead, you can't say no forever.
Big 12 has more to lose with losses of the big 2, , but the ACC has many more teams coveted by those 2 conferences. They would also still be a viable conference due to the fact they have good programs that won't be invited, due to overlapping markets among other things.
FSU and Clemson likely aren't going anywhere. I've heard FSU to b1g but that seems unlikely, Virginia, GT, UNC, Texas or even Oklahoma seems much more likely. SEC its long been rumored would take VT and NC STate.
Your still left with clemson, fsu, Miami, duke, louisville, pitt, syracuse etc. WVU is the only real obvious addition, probably Uconn which im 100% on board with because of old big east. (we played the slow game after getting raided first, we will eventually be the big east with a new name...just no rutgers or temple, sad as that is, and possibly vt) I would hope that TCU and Baylor would be looked at before going the cincy, memphis, ucf route and it seems to make common sense.
The wrench is the PAC, they need to get to 16 as well and they aren't near the big 2. if you look deep into their contract its actually worse overall than the big 12 and the ACC. WHy would texas go there when they can go to the b1g. Not sure what real options they have other than lower level teams.
B1G and SEC are too far ahead, you can't say no forever.
Big 12 has more to lose with losses of the big 2, , but the ACC has many more teams coveted by those 2 conferences. They would also still be a viable conference due to the fact they have good programs that won't be invited, due to overlapping markets among other things.
FSU and Clemson likely aren't going anywhere. I've heard FSU to b1g but that seems unlikely, Virginia, GT, UNC, Texas or even Oklahoma seems much more likely. SEC its long been rumored would take VT and NC STate.
Your still left with clemson, fsu, Miami, duke, louisville, pitt, syracuse etc. WVU is the only real obvious addition, probably Uconn which im 100% on board with because of old big east. (we played the slow game after getting raided first, we will eventually be the big east with a new name...just no rutgers or temple, sad as that is, and possibly vt) I would hope that TCU and Baylor would be looked at before going the cincy, memphis, ucf route and it seems to make common sense.
The wrench is the PAC, they need to get to 16 as well and they aren't near the big 2. if you look deep into their contract its actually worse overall than the big 12 and the ACC. WHy would texas go there when they can go to the b1g. Not sure what real options they have other than lower level teams.
Wish I could see your "slam dunk". WVU can't be content and passive and wait for the world to see our greatness. Make Big 12 expansion a reality and things will be much more stable...without taking any future options off the table.
Anyone guaranteeing a "slam dunk" to a conference in a lower revenue situation than the BIG 12 isn't thinking clearly. There aren't any "slam dunks".
WVU has to be prepared for any outcome. Shore up the academic side, get as successful as possible in the major sports, build up facilities as need be, re engage the fanbase (probably one of the top most important).
They should also be lining up matchups with schools in conferences that they might one day benefit having a strong association with -depending on how the wind blows. And make sure when the opportunity arises--just as Luck did make sure the fanbase understands the impact of their behavior. We don't hear the media ripping WVU as in the past so things must be better there, but its got to continue that fans from other places enjoy coming to WVU.
On a "civic" side of things they should be working with the local government and business to make Morgantown and environs as attractive to outside visitors as possible. Alot has been done there, but more needs to be done. More upscale dining and entertainment and hotels would be a great start along with beautifying certain streets and areas. Go around to other major universities that WVU is in competition with and look around the universities for an idea. Landscaping, upgraded business and store fronts, new living and shopping areas with a wider selection than might currently exist. Do what can be done to improve air transportation--very important. ,etc. etc.
WVU has to be prepared for any outcome. Shore up the academic side, get as successful as possible in the major sports, build up facilities as need be, re engage the fanbase (probably one of the top most important).
They should also be lining up matchups with schools in conferences that they might one day benefit having a strong association with -depending on how the wind blows. And make sure when the opportunity arises--just as Luck did make sure the fanbase understands the impact of their behavior. We don't hear the media ripping WVU as in the past so things must be better there, but its got to continue that fans from other places enjoy coming to WVU.
On a "civic" side of things they should be working with the local government and business to make Morgantown and environs as attractive to outside visitors as possible. Alot has been done there, but more needs to be done. More upscale dining and entertainment and hotels would be a great start along with beautifying certain streets and areas. Go around to other major universities that WVU is in competition with and look around the universities for an idea. Landscaping, upgraded business and store fronts, new living and shopping areas with a wider selection than might currently exist. Do what can be done to improve air transportation--very important. ,etc. etc.
Oklahoma and Okla State are not tied together. The OKC sports writer was on Sirius Radio this week and was pointedly asked the question. He said OU and OSU do not have to go to the same conference but OSU has to have a good landing spot or the powers that are ultimately in control in OK would force the issue. So OSU is not going to left out. I think the same thing is true about TTech.