148 F'in pitches.... really
- Thread starter ScoobaDawg
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you are in the Sunday Super Regional game to go to Omaha. You lost Friday and won Saturday behind Bittle, who threw 120 pitches in a complete game. Sunday's game is a slugfest, and goes into extras, so you lose Morgan in the ninth. Come the 11th, you get the lead, and Bittle goes to Bianco and says "I can pitch this last inning." You willing to call him a retard?
Bertman coached in a different era of baseball, a completely different time.
Bertman's tactics are in no way relevant to baseball today. It's a different game today than it was when he won his titles.
There is no reason to have a pitcher throw 148 pitches at this point in the season. I could understand it late if you're trying to win a title, trying to win a regional or Super, but against the worst record team in the SEC down 5-1?
Nope, no excuse.
Bertman's tactics are in no way relevant to baseball today. It's a different game today than it was when he won his titles.
There is no reason to have a pitcher throw 148 pitches at this point in the season. I could understand it late if you're trying to win a title, trying to win a regional or Super, but against the worst record team in the SEC down 5-1?
Nope, no excuse.
teams scored at a much higher clip back then, which to me lends itself to going to the bullpen quicker. But really, you make it sound like a football coach thinking the wishbone could still work. I supposed to believe college baseball is that much different now than it is in 2000? I mean, I understand why you think it is. Ole Miss was terrible back then and you didn't care and you didn't go to the games.
Why would I drive up to Ole Miss at that point to go watch an average program with little support play?
Just because I didn't watch Ole Miss baseball doesn't mean I don't know about how baseball was then.
Four of his five titles were won in 1997 or before, in an era of bigger players and more homeruns. Nowadays you're considered a power hitter if you hit 15 all year. People were hitting 20-25 regularly back then.
Of course, your theory only works on one side. If the pitcher gets hit hard, then yes, you'd get to the bullpen quicker. But with the teams that Bertman fielded, he was pitching with superior players. You can even refer to the 2000 CWS if you'd like. They didn't give up more than 5 runs in any game and scored more than 6 in every game. The '97 CWS they beat their opponents by an average of more than 4 runs per game. And so on and so on.
There is no reason, at this point in the season, to have your Friday guy throw 148 pitches while down 5-1 to the worst team in the SEC. Period. There is ZERO case you can make for that that makes any sense at all. None.
I'm sure you'll come back with some witty comment challenging my baseball knowledge or attendance, so I'll let you have the last word. But, no matter what you say, there is no defense for letting him throw 148 pitches last night. And I'd say the same thing about Bianco, and have in the past when he let Lance Lynn go 130+.
Just because I didn't watch Ole Miss baseball doesn't mean I don't know about how baseball was then.
Four of his five titles were won in 1997 or before, in an era of bigger players and more homeruns. Nowadays you're considered a power hitter if you hit 15 all year. People were hitting 20-25 regularly back then.
Of course, your theory only works on one side. If the pitcher gets hit hard, then yes, you'd get to the bullpen quicker. But with the teams that Bertman fielded, he was pitching with superior players. You can even refer to the 2000 CWS if you'd like. They didn't give up more than 5 runs in any game and scored more than 6 in every game. The '97 CWS they beat their opponents by an average of more than 4 runs per game. And so on and so on.
There is no reason, at this point in the season, to have your Friday guy throw 148 pitches while down 5-1 to the worst team in the SEC. Period. There is ZERO case you can make for that that makes any sense at all. None.
I'm sure you'll come back with some witty comment challenging my baseball knowledge or attendance, so I'll let you have the last word. But, no matter what you say, there is no defense for letting him throw 148 pitches last night. And I'd say the same thing about Bianco, and have in the past when he let Lance Lynn go 130+.
Say what you want, but it wrong to do. There is a reason you rarely see pitchers throwing this many pitches in an outing, college or pro. It is just stupidBullyfan87 said:
Publicly sayting that his pitchers aren't good enough to play college baseball, throwing his starters until their arms fall off... pretty soon he won't even have to recruit pitchers. High school pitchers will be calling him.
He threw a lot of pitches on Friday and then came back in on Sunday and pitched an inning or 2. As long as it is not made a habit, it should be ok. I didn't watch the game, did he seem to have a problem or is it the day after and we find out the pitch count?
so he waited as long as could and then brought in possibly our worst reliever. It actually makes plenty of sense to me.
It doesn't make sense to a. ole miss fans looking to blast Cohen at every turn and b. other posters who simply seem to want to find something wrong.
If he keeps throwing him 120+ every outing, that's not good. But that was the 2nd time all year Whitney has gone over 100 pitches.
Im just glad our coaches are trying like hell to win.
It doesn't make sense to a. ole miss fans looking to blast Cohen at every turn and b. other posters who simply seem to want to find something wrong.
If he keeps throwing him 120+ every outing, that's not good. But that was the 2nd time all year Whitney has gone over 100 pitches.
Im just glad our coaches are trying like hell to win.
HA!!....I played soccer for 17 year and "baseball" for 9 because anything before the age of 10 in baseball is just glorified tee ball otherwise i havedawgstudent said:
i guess i can claim i am a soccer expert.....HA!! dubmass ***** (not you DS)
Congratulations. This is easily the biggest ***** thread ever on this sight. Whitney throws about 86 mph and only pitches about 15 college games a year with 6 days rest between every one. It is not a big deal to throw between 130 and 150 in a couple of those. What a bunch of +@%!%*% pussies.
I believe Bianco left Lance Lynn in one time for almost 140 pitches, and that's just not right.
It's dangerous to the guy's arm. You just don't do that.
It's dangerous to the guy's arm. You just don't do that.
you implied that he brought in Hayes because we were basically conceding the game and playing for the next one.
I've been thrilled about the Cohen hire, but I don't like this move at all. We can't afford to lose pitchers.
I've been thrilled about the Cohen hire, but I don't like this move at all. We can't afford to lose pitchers.
I need a little bit more of a sample size than just a few pitchers for you to convince me that this is normal. You can't give me a large one because it isn't normal for it to happen8Dog said:
It wouldn't surprise me though. You see coaches at many levels, high school and college that will ride an ace or any pitcher for way too long just to try to get a win. It's a selfish move on the coach's part, because you know the player, especially at the college level or younger is likely not going to ask to be taken out.
You can ask Mark Prior and Kerry Wood about the dangers of throwing 120+ pitches regularly. Both of those guys have been injury prone, but Dusty Baker made it a lot worse in 2003 when he basically rode them both to the playoffs by overthrowing them down the stretch. It's just a dangerous thing to do, and it's not right.
I believe I said on the Nafoom board that I remember a guy for Arkansas, can't remember his name, who was a senior. He had no plans of going in the draft after school, and he was a pretty good pitcher on a staff that wasn't very deep. I believe it was 2005, and he basically asked the coaches to ride his arm for as long as needed because he knew it was his last year to play baseball. All he cared about was winning right then because he didn't have a future after baseball.
I'm pretty sure he ended up throwing well over 200 pitches for the entire weekend both in starting and closing roles in their regional that year, when they lost to Texas. I believe he started the Friday and Monday games and may have closed the Saturday game. That was a rare situation though, and other than something like that, it's just a bad idea to overthrow a guy.
You can ask Mark Prior and Kerry Wood about the dangers of throwing 120+ pitches regularly. Both of those guys have been injury prone, but Dusty Baker made it a lot worse in 2003 when he basically rode them both to the playoffs by overthrowing them down the stretch. It's just a dangerous thing to do, and it's not right.
I believe I said on the Nafoom board that I remember a guy for Arkansas, can't remember his name, who was a senior. He had no plans of going in the draft after school, and he was a pretty good pitcher on a staff that wasn't very deep. I believe it was 2005, and he basically asked the coaches to ride his arm for as long as needed because he knew it was his last year to play baseball. All he cared about was winning right then because he didn't have a future after baseball.
I'm pretty sure he ended up throwing well over 200 pitches for the entire weekend both in starting and closing roles in their regional that year, when they lost to Texas. I believe he started the Friday and Monday games and may have closed the Saturday game. That was a rare situation though, and other than something like that, it's just a bad idea to overthrow a guy.
coaches are paid TONS of money to win... end of story. Go look up Tim Lincecum's college pitch counts. The good ones make it to the bigs no matter.
if a guy wants to really "protect himself" then he needs to take that round 35 money and go live on 18,000 in Single A.
Whitney isn't a pro prospect anyway.
if a guy wants to really "protect himself" then he needs to take that round 35 money and go live on 18,000 in Single A.
Whitney isn't a pro prospect anyway.
Many baseball people actually blame Wood's HS coach because he pitched a complete game start in the Championship Game in Texas and then THAT SAME DAY went out and pitched five more innings and threw another 80 pitches or so. He threw something like 230 pitches- I can't remember the exact number but it was well over 200 in the same day. And even worse he had well over an hour worth of rest before throwing the last 80.
Now I do have a problem with that.
Throwing 150- doesn't bother me so much, it all depends on the pitcher. I'm one of those people that thinks that people tend to coddle pitchers too much. Damn- Sandy Koufax could throw 150 routinely with severe arthritis in his elbow, and all he needed was a cortisone shot. I think the real problem is no one has come up with a conditioning program for starting pitchers to allow them to throw longer. Yet.
Now I do have a problem with that.
Throwing 150- doesn't bother me so much, it all depends on the pitcher. I'm one of those people that thinks that people tend to coddle pitchers too much. Damn- Sandy Koufax could throw 150 routinely with severe arthritis in his elbow, and all he needed was a cortisone shot. I think the real problem is no one has come up with a conditioning program for starting pitchers to allow them to throw longer. Yet.
and they were the first 3 I could find pitch counts on. Go look at boyd's world at all the incredibly high pitch counts from just this year alone. I quit looking after that b/c I hoped people would get it if Tanner and Corbin were doing it. Hell, Corbin threw David Price on 1 full day's rest in a regional in relief.
Its not going to happen nearly as much with saturday and sunday guys b/c they aren't as good.
Its not going to happen nearly as much with saturday and sunday guys b/c they aren't as good.
It is absolutely insane to throw a kid that much whether he is big league material or not. One of the top five shoulder specialist in this country once told me that pitch counts are extremely important to the health of the shoulder/elbow. Coming from a physician who is literally flown all over this world to check and or perform surgery on professional athletes' shoulders is as credible a source as I need. One time...150 pitches....may not do one in, but making it a practice is detrimental to the shoulder and its makeup. You might want to check the health of Tim Lincecum and you might want to take a look at the vast majority of major league pitching coaches and their practices of counting pitches. Or you can just continue to speak without really knowing what you are talking about.SolidDog said:
There's no doubt about that. South Panola is built for 1st and goal with the game on the line. They don't get stopped in a 4 carry situation; they get stopped when they're outside of 4th down territory and you only get 3 runs. No one would have kept Nicholas Parker from getting 2.5 yards per carry over 4 plays to win that game.
Stupid would have been a more appropriate word there than conservative. Pogue just "locks up" and panics when a game is on the line and finds a way to keep the other team in striking distance.HD6 said:
talking about in regards to the game.
If you discount someone's years of experience playing and watching the game, then you can also discount Bertman's years coaching...because obviously experience doesn't matter, only a dumbassed opinion when (poorly) trying to defend a coach's actions.
If you discount someone's years of experience playing and watching the game, then you can also discount Bertman's years coaching...because obviously experience doesn't matter, only a dumbassed opinion when (poorly) trying to defend a coach's actions.
I clearly said Pogue gets "way too conservative when the heat is on" and watching him coach a big game or a game with a lead is very similar to watching Crxxms coach a big game/game with a lead. I like a wide open offense, although I think a balanced, option offense is best for HS. I would kill to see what Rickey Woods or Michael Fair could have done with our teams the last 2 years. I'm certain of this much: The Streak would still be alive and well if either of them were on the sidelines instead of Pogue.
HD6 said:
Slightly different in the days as well. Pitching Friday and Sunday is a little different than throwing Friday and Monday.
I don't agree with going to Pomeranz tomorrow, though I bet we go to him for some innings.
Thinking back, we brought Holliman back for the SEC title game in 2005 against you. He had pitched Wednesday and came back to throw 3 innings on a limited pitch count on Sunday because we were on our 6th game in 5 days and we were depleted in the pen. However, there was an extra day of rest in there than what Pomeranz will be facing if he throws tomorrow.
You could have pitched Stephen Head, who we could not touch to save our lives and was extra motivated after Polk's brilliant talent assessment.
If I remember correctly, Holliman was tired, left the ball up in the zone as a result of being tired and even our outs were balls that were rockets right at someone. We did manage three runs until Jon-Jon Hancock served up a home run to Jeff Butts. Head came in around the sixth-seventh inning and we couldn't do anything with him except for maybe an infield hit. Ole Miss was actually pretty fortunate that Holliman only gave up three.
I distinctly remember being in Sunday School that day and someone asked me if I thought we would win. I said if Bianco pitches Holliman, we win and if he pitches Head, Ole Miss wins. And I think Ole Miss would have won 1-0 even with Brooks Dunn pitching the best game of his life that day.
If I remember correctly, Holliman was tired, left the ball up in the zone as a result of being tired and even our outs were balls that were rockets right at someone. We did manage three runs until Jon-Jon Hancock served up a home run to Jeff Butts. Head came in around the sixth-seventh inning and we couldn't do anything with him except for maybe an infield hit. Ole Miss was actually pretty fortunate that Holliman only gave up three.
I distinctly remember being in Sunday School that day and someone asked me if I thought we would win. I said if Bianco pitches Holliman, we win and if he pitches Head, Ole Miss wins. And I think Ole Miss would have won 1-0 even with Brooks Dunn pitching the best game of his life that day.