A true Christian would not deny service to anyone.

EEResistable

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Jesus would not deny a homosexual from eating in His restaurant. Jesus would eat with him!

This is my problem with these laws. It's so hypocritical. Is any sin greater than others in the sight of God? Why not deny service to divorced people? Or alcoholics?
 

TarHeelEer

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It's not just a service, it's a "wedding" cake

People aren't denying any other kind of service except those that take part in a ceremony that is blasphemous to God's Word.

We would welcome anyone into our church. It is our duty to allow them to hear the gospel. It is not our duty to affirm their sinful lifestyle. Same with alcoholics, divorced without cause people, or anyone else.
 

EEResistable

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Re: It's not just a service, it's a "wedding" cake

Is there going to be drunkeness at the wedding party where said cake is being eaten?
 

op2

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Re: It's not just a service, it's a "wedding" cake

Alcohol is legal and being an alcoholic is legal but no church has to marry an alcoholic. A church can refuse to marry someone based their hair color or skin color or having a tattoo or their name or any other frivilous think they like. The notion that marrying gay people will somehow become an exception to that is silly.
 

Wolf J. Flywheel

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Although tame by Islam standards, "Christians" by and large are a problem.

So much that I have no idea what the definition of a Christian is. Then again, the secular community and Evangelicals are bizarre bunkmates in that both have spliced Jesus with religion.

Still have not gotten an accurate (or even remotely intelligent) explanation on what Jesus has to do with relgion or Christianity.

This post was edited on 3/30 2:30 PM by Wolf J. Flywheel
 

Fingon

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I also think the problems are basically self-policing . . . .

so long as it's not outright, brazen, bold-faced discrimination. This isn't an issue of refusal of basic services. The examples I see most often is a cake baker refusing to make a same-sex wedding cake, etc., and on it's surface, the issues seem mostly confined to businesses associated with weddings. And in those cases, I feel like if a business owner wants to knowingly turn away business simply because of a religious belief, it's their loss. A customer will always find someone else willing to take their money--and most successful business owners realize that they should be in the business of attracting customers and not turning them away. (You'll notice that the conservative Chamber of Commerce types are not out beating the drums on this topic one way or another.) Furthermore, for the instances where a baker or florist or wedding planner wants to turn away business by voicing their opinion, it's hard to imagine why the potential customer wouldn't appreciate knowing about the conflict--as it will prevent them from patronizing people they would otherwise view as bigots. I mean seriously, does the gay couple *really* want their cake made by people who are hostile to them? Isn't that sort of the opposite of what they would seek to patronize?

These "religious freedom" laws cut both ways at times. Take the examples of exemptions to the controlled substances act, which prevents prosecution of native americans who use peyote as part of their religious practices. Look at the exemptions for vaccinations or other legally required responsibilities. (I actually have much more of an issue with that one in particular, rather than the cake baker scenario). I don't think it's in liberals best interests to fight tooth and nail over every example of these sorts of problems. Just because one example of 'religious freedom' in action is beneficial to non-discrimination, doesn't mean it will work that way across the board. So long as people aren't being overtly discriminated against, or publically humiliated, etc., it seems to me that the marketplace will sort all of this out in most cases. And I doubt the Indiana Chamber of Commerce folks have any delusions that talking more about this issue is going to be good for them--I'm guessing most of them want it to go away as soon as possible. Gay couples will assuredly eventually find plenty of folks to cater to them as customers, because ultimately, the business of business owners is business--not platitudes and politics.

This post was edited on 3/30 2:38 PM by Fingon
 

op2

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Thats a good point. Its like being mean to waitress before she brings food*

*
 

EEResistable

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Re: It's not just a service, it's a "wedding" cake

By your example they should not be making cakes for non-Christians either. Or a Christian marrying a non-Christian.
 

Fingon

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markets work best when . . .

the people involved focus on the exchange of money for goods and services rather than each other's personal beliefs. I know it can be a shocking concept. It's one of the reasons I always laugh when I see a business put up political signs. If someone is dumb enough to brazenly turn away potential business, it's their loss. Having said that, if they are OK with taking that loss, for whatever reason, then who is hurt?
 

EEResistable

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Re: Although tame by Islam standards, "Christians" by and large are a problem.

Well without Jesus there is no Christianity. Jesus is the Christ.

How would I define a Christian? Someone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and loves every other person as Jesus would love them. That's my daily prayer. Help me love people the way God loves them. If we all did that the world would be awesome.
 

EEResistable

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Re: So that propitiation was about religion?

I did not say he came to bring us religion. Did you even read what I posted?
 
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Re: Although tame by Islam standards, "Christians" by and large are a problem.

Originally posted by EEResistable:
Well without Jesus there is no Christianity. Jesus is the Christ.

How would I define a Christian? Someone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and loves every other person as Jesus would love them. That's my daily prayer. Help me love people the way God loves them. If we all did that the world would be awesome.
Very well stated. That sums up how Christianity is supposed to be in just a couple of sentences.
 

oceantide83

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Re: So that propitiation was about religion?


Originally posted by Wolf J. Flywheel:
He came to bring us religion?

Really?
You are a sinner just like myself and everybody else. Sin separates us from God because God is perfectly holy and righteous. Just as darkness and light are complete opposites that cannot combine or accept each other, so it is with our relationship to God. God loves us so much that He sent His Son to the world to die for us and the sins we have committed so that by believing and accepting Him into our life, we can be saved from ourselves and not spend eternity in darkness separated from God. Only Christ could have been sacrificed for us because He lived a perfect life and was without spot or blemish which was well pleasing to the Father. Because God raised Him from the dead we can be sure that the Son's sacrifice for our sins was accepted by God. Because He was raised from the dead, we now have a way to restore our relationship to God through Christ. When God looks at those who believe in His Son, it is as if He sees His Son instead of our sinful selves. Christ is our intercessor and we are made righteous in God's eyes because we have Christ living in us. It is the gift of God and something you need to receive if you haven't already.
 

TarHeelEer

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Correct. But it's not obvious those are the situations

when ordering a cake. Homosexual couples... pretty obvious. Do you want a questionnaire when you order a wedding cake?
 

dave

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i would absolutely deny service to some. very obvious reasons

People who dont pay their bills. People who are disrespectful to me or my employees. I would reserve the right to deny service for anything but in general it is a bad idea to deny service to people who want to give you their money.
 

PriddyBoy

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Since when don't we openly serve gay people? Did Al Fresco die?