Alright, John Cohen, you bastard ...
- Thread starter Shmuley
- Start date
How can you say "this isn't the year"? It's reasonable to have realistic goals. Realizing we are in the most competitive division of the most competitive baseball conference, I think we can and should show improvement. We recruited to our needs. We've got kids that can come in and contribute now. We won't win the West, but we should win a series or two at home. And our OOC schedule is easier this year. We should do much better there.<div>We may not make Omaha, but we can make a regional.</div>
just want to see us make the SEC tourney and a regional. That's not too much to ask or expect.
If that doesn't happen, at the very least, new assistants will be necessary.
If that doesn't happen, at the very least, new assistants will be necessary.
would be a HUGE jump from the last 3 in a row losing seasons. I agree we should be in position to expect those things but from last year's results to making a regional this year would be quite a move upwards.
a lot of the same. Until that change is made, I don't believe we will see much improvement in our overall record. We might be better at the plate and improve on defense but we will still suffer on the mound and that is the one component you cannot overcome.
it's time to start expecting that every year. Anything less is no longer excusable. Cohen should have went out and got a real pitching coach last summer. He didn't. He is responisble for what does or doesn't happen this year. I hope Thompson transforms the staff, but I don't see it happening. He's never shown that he can in his career.
20 percent of our problem, and that Thompson was a good pitching coach because he put together 2 middle of the road staffs at Auburn (the rest were awful) in about 9 years of coaching, and that's like having a good pitching staff at Coors field. Even though we had the worst ERA in the league last year, we sucked because of our range.
I know you are screwing around but someone will have to explain to me if we cannot strike out batters and give up more runs than the other team, how are we supposed to win?
Thompson should have never been hired and has gotten a pass by many but if Cohen does not make a change soon, he might find himself looking for a job too. I don't know that Cohen gets too many more seasons without some drastic improvement. I think he gets this one, but next year he is coaching for his job unless there are some big changes.
Thompson should have never been hired and has gotten a pass by many but if Cohen does not make a change soon, he might find himself looking for a job too. I don't know that Cohen gets too many more seasons without some drastic improvement. I think he gets this one, but next year he is coaching for his job unless there are some big changes.
DowntownDawg said:
Butch didn't just do well at Auburn- he did well at Georgia and before that at Birmingham-Southern. Your statement about how he "only put together two middle of the road staffs at Auburn is hilarious because he was only there for three years. So, yeah, most of the time he was there he had good pitching staffs.
Here are the stats for Butch's THREE years at Auburn.
2006- 5.15 ERA (Or as you call them "the rest") That would have fininshed 8th in the SEC this year.
2007- 4.59 ERA (OH NO! IMPROVEMENT!) Would have been 5th in the SEC this year.
2008- 4.86 ERA (Not as good, but not that much worse) Also would have been 5th in the SEC this year.
Here is what happened after Butch left.
2009- 6.12 ERA (That's about a run and a half more a game as a team)
2010- 5.00 ERA (Much better, but still not as good as Butch's two best years, but better than the "rest" of his staffs, which amounts to his first year.)
Your other statement show how little you know about baseball in general. Here's the bottom line- we were horrible last year. It wasn't just pitching. It was defense, and really our lineup was merely decent as far as hitting, and we lacked team speed. We did have some power, and so people who don't know anything about baseball like you say- "Oh well, we were a good hitting team because look at the home runs". It goes deeper than that- and NO I'M NOT SAYING THAT HITTING HOME RUNS IS A BAD THING- because I know that's what you are thinking in your pea brain. What I am saying is that being good at hitting and htting with power are two different things, and just because you are good at hitting doesn't necessarily mean that you are able to hit with power, nor does hitting with power mean that you are a good hitter.
If you don't believe me about the talent of our team- well, let's look at the people who do this for a living. How many of our players were drafted last year? Three. How did they do in the minors? Not well. Because if you remember last year I said that the MLB draft would tell us how much talent we had, and they've proved my point.
And yes, we did lack range last year among other things. If you can't get to a ball, it's going to go down as a hit, and that hurts your pitching staff. That goes back to defense and also team speed.
About Coors Field- Auburn has the smallest ballpark in the SEC. That is very relevant because teams that play in hitters ballparks have pitching staffs that are worse in general. If you can put together a "middle of the road" pitching staff in a ballpark like that, you are going to get a lot more leeway from people. I'm not surprised that you didn't get that.
Finally- to those that think that our pitching will be worse this year, I disagree. I would be very surprised if we're worse or as bad this year. Our staff right now is healthier than they have been in a long time, they have more experience as a group, we have added some more talent on our team and we will be better defensively, we have an easier schedule, and then you have the bats with the smaller sweet spot. And you have "Butch Thompson sucks". Nice.
Todd4State said:
With very few exceptions, if you don't have a good pitching staff, you are not going to win a lot of games. You can hide away or get past a few bad defensive players. You can hide and spread out a few ****** hitters at the plate. You cannot hide a poor pitching staff, not ever.
I agree with the fact that our players could not make some plays on defense and that shows up in the pitching stats. What I also believe is that our pitchers last year and the year before, were throwing batting practice.
I am too lazy to look it up but I would bet that if you were to look at the stats on batters just making contact and putting the ball in play against our pitching staff last year, that we would rank close to the bottom of the SEC and probably the NCAA. If you have a pitching staff that is serving up softballs at the plate, it is going to make your mediocre defense look 10x worse.
It all goes back to when you were growing up and your coach would tell you, "just put it in play." Any coach knows that the more balls you put into play, the more chances you have to get on base.
Our pitching has been awful and I just don't believe that Butch is the guy for the job.
You get a good pitching staff and it will hide a lot of your shortcomings. You have a ****** pitching staff and you don't have much of a chance. How anyone could really argue otherwise is beyond me if they are a fan of baseball.
the first year Cohen was stuck with another inferior Polk recruited class coming in. I do expect a decent amount of improvement this year and fully agree our pitching coach is currently not getting the job done.
Hell, I read what you post every time and I recognize that you follow baseball closely. The problem is, you won't admit when you are wrong or allow anybody else to have an opinion, since baseball is your wife and all, or whatever you said.
But I'm pointing out that this is was a total team effort last year in suckiness, and there were some things that contributed to our staff being bad last year as well.
The thing about pitching is- and I know that this is going to sound odd- is it's not always about striking everyone out. Pitchers are taught to make the batter put the ball and play and let the defense work behind them as well. The reason for that it is to try to minimize pitches. The Atlanta Braves in the 1990's were the poster boys for this. There are very few pitchers that are like a Nolan Ryan, or on the SEC level David Price when he was at Vandy that can just absolutely blow everyone away. The guys that are like that are very, very blessed with talent. It's not something that you can "coach up".
I believe that everything in baseball works together as a unit- that's why it's a team. Pitching, defense, and offense. It doesn't matter how good your pitching is if you can't hit or field you're going to be bad. If you have a great defense, but your pitching staff is awful and you can't hit you're going to be bad. And lastly if you have a good hitting team and bad pitching and defense you are also going to be bad.
I agree that you can maybe hide a couple of players-and I would say even that's a stretch, but you can't hide an entire team. And that was the case for us last year.
Personally, I would say from having watched our team and based on how the stats trended, injuries and defense are what killed us more than anything. Our ERA gradually went up as the season went on. If we have a healthy Nick Routt, we probably have a winning season. We were forced to use guys like Caleb Reed and Kendall Graveman on the weekend and we had to force them to pitch a lot more than they (and others- I don't want it to look like I'm blaming our pitching problems solely on them) should have been, and they evetually hit a wall. That's what Cohen was talking about when he was talking about "protecting" our pitchers and how we couldn't do that last year. Up until the Alabama series, our team ERA was respectable.
Now my stance on Butch is the same and it hasn't changed. His first staff weren't his players and they weren't any good except for Routt. His second staff was mostly freshmen, which is a recipe for disaster- but at some point you have to start bringing talent in. As I have said, there are many more reasons as to why we should be better than worse. Now, that being said, IF they get worse then he should be fired because to me, by year three, you should start to show improvement- and especially with the reasons that I outlined. As I have said, I would be very surprised if they got worse, though, but I also will say that anything is possible.
The thing about pitching is- and I know that this is going to sound odd- is it's not always about striking everyone out. Pitchers are taught to make the batter put the ball and play and let the defense work behind them as well. The reason for that it is to try to minimize pitches. The Atlanta Braves in the 1990's were the poster boys for this. There are very few pitchers that are like a Nolan Ryan, or on the SEC level David Price when he was at Vandy that can just absolutely blow everyone away. The guys that are like that are very, very blessed with talent. It's not something that you can "coach up".
I believe that everything in baseball works together as a unit- that's why it's a team. Pitching, defense, and offense. It doesn't matter how good your pitching is if you can't hit or field you're going to be bad. If you have a great defense, but your pitching staff is awful and you can't hit you're going to be bad. And lastly if you have a good hitting team and bad pitching and defense you are also going to be bad.
I agree that you can maybe hide a couple of players-and I would say even that's a stretch, but you can't hide an entire team. And that was the case for us last year.
Personally, I would say from having watched our team and based on how the stats trended, injuries and defense are what killed us more than anything. Our ERA gradually went up as the season went on. If we have a healthy Nick Routt, we probably have a winning season. We were forced to use guys like Caleb Reed and Kendall Graveman on the weekend and we had to force them to pitch a lot more than they (and others- I don't want it to look like I'm blaming our pitching problems solely on them) should have been, and they evetually hit a wall. That's what Cohen was talking about when he was talking about "protecting" our pitchers and how we couldn't do that last year. Up until the Alabama series, our team ERA was respectable.
Now my stance on Butch is the same and it hasn't changed. His first staff weren't his players and they weren't any good except for Routt. His second staff was mostly freshmen, which is a recipe for disaster- but at some point you have to start bringing talent in. As I have said, there are many more reasons as to why we should be better than worse. Now, that being said, IF they get worse then he should be fired because to me, by year three, you should start to show improvement- and especially with the reasons that I outlined. As I have said, I would be very surprised if they got worse, though, but I also will say that anything is possible.
2002 - UGA. 6.02. 12th in the league
2003 - UGA 5.30. 12th in the league
2004 - UGA 4.31.8th in the league*
2005 - UGA 4.88. 12th in the league
2006 -Aub 5.15. 12th in the league
2007 - Aub 4.59 7th in the league
2008 - Aub. 4.86 7th in the league again
2009 - MSU 6.59 12th in the league
2010- MSU 5.87 11th in the league
Average SEC ERA - 5.29
Average league finish - 10.3
I don't want to hear anything else about Thompson. The above is objective and the numbers don't lie. The guy has never cracked the top half of the league in nine years. He can recruit, but he has never put together what anybody would consider a good staff.
And you call that doing "well?" What the 17? Just admit that the guy has never put together a good pitching staff and let's put this argument to rest.
*For some reason, the numbers were through February of 2004.
2003 - UGA 5.30. 12th in the league
2004 - UGA 4.31.8th in the league*
2005 - UGA 4.88. 12th in the league
2006 -Aub 5.15. 12th in the league
2007 - Aub 4.59 7th in the league
2008 - Aub. 4.86 7th in the league again
2009 - MSU 6.59 12th in the league
2010- MSU 5.87 11th in the league
Average SEC ERA - 5.29
Average league finish - 10.3
I don't want to hear anything else about Thompson. The above is objective and the numbers don't lie. The guy has never cracked the top half of the league in nine years. He can recruit, but he has never put together what anybody would consider a good staff.
And you call that doing "well?" What the 17? Just admit that the guy has never put together a good pitching staff and let's put this argument to rest.
*For some reason, the numbers were through February of 2004.
DowntownDawg said:
I've NEVER once called myself a baseball guru. What am I suppposed to do? Tell people to not call me that because you don't like it?
You can have an opinion. You just don't like mine.
And if baseball is my wife, well, at least mine is better looking than yours.
during a spring training game between the Kansas City Royals and Florida Marlins.
Really nice guy.
Really nice guy.
What are you going to do? Ground me?
And you're accusing me of not allowing someone else to have an opinion?
I see a guy who has team ERA's that have improved almost every year from one year to the next, and you call that doing a bad job?
And I want to know what my punishment is before I stop talking about Butch.
And you're accusing me of not allowing someone else to have an opinion?
I see a guy who has team ERA's that have improved almost every year from one year to the next, and you call that doing a bad job?
And I want to know what my punishment is before I stop talking about Butch.
sliced bread, but he doesn't have SEC caliber arms and therein lies the majority of the issue w/our pitching staff.............
...an average of 10th in the league is what you call good.
His staffs improve minimally, but not substantially. Remember, this where his staffs are relative to the hitting and other pitching in the league. If somebody improves by half a run but that's still the worst in the SEC, is that improvement?
I have no problem with you, man. I enjoy reading your baseball stuff and your Cardinals stuff. You follow recruiting and player personnel and it's very informative.
That said, you need to just admit when you are wrong. I've done it many times.
His staffs improve minimally, but not substantially. Remember, this where his staffs are relative to the hitting and other pitching in the league. If somebody improves by half a run but that's still the worst in the SEC, is that improvement?
I have no problem with you, man. I enjoy reading your baseball stuff and your Cardinals stuff. You follow recruiting and player personnel and it's very informative.
That said, you need to just admit when you are wrong. I've done it many times.
Todd4State said:
not what you want in a coach. I want a coach that goes from sucking to dominating, I realize it takes time. If the above stats show anything, it is that he takes a good bit of time to get you from the awful to mediocre. Is that what you want him to do here, or do you think there may be someone better out there?
I am surprised you are arguing that hard for a guy that really has a pretty poor track record at other SEC schools and a craptastic track record so far at State.
...when you introduce yourself by your internet username on the radio like everybody is supposed to know you.
And you are the one who said you were married to baseball. You and Ron Polk.
IF he was that bad and poorly thought of, why has he gotten hired by three SEC schools? And no, it's not just for his recruiting. Believe me, in the baseball community, if you have a reputation of being bad, people will not want to go play for you. That's what happened to Russ McNickle when he was here.
If Butch had stayed at those schools, they would have continued to do well. When you switch schools like he was, you also have to start over at whatever school you go to. He was never anywhere more than five years.
Before Butch came to MSU, he was just named the head coach at High Point- a D-I school. If a guy is that bad, why would a school hire him as a head coach?
I argue hard for people if I feel like they are wrongly or unjustly being criticized.
Now, could we do better? Sure- there's always someone that could do better. I'm not saying the guy is above replacement or is the best out there. But that's a loaded question because I could ask "Is there someone that could do better than Dan Mullen?", and the answer to that is yes too.
What do I want out of our pitching staff? Well, short term I want them to improve over last year and I want them to win 30 games. Basically, like I've said I want to see them improve over the past year. Of course, everyone wants to dominate. But, like you said, it does take time for players to develop and that's why improvement is the most important thing from year to year. And as I've said, that will happen as long as we continue to add good talent to our team- which is what we're doing.
Finally, I will say this- IF we had fired Butch Thompson after two years under the circumstances that he was working with, it would have been a LOT harder to find someone good becuase those pitching coaches are going to see what I'm seeing. That we fired a guy because he couldn't win with someone else's pitchers one year and then a bunch of freshmen.
If Butch had stayed at those schools, they would have continued to do well. When you switch schools like he was, you also have to start over at whatever school you go to. He was never anywhere more than five years.
Before Butch came to MSU, he was just named the head coach at High Point- a D-I school. If a guy is that bad, why would a school hire him as a head coach?
I argue hard for people if I feel like they are wrongly or unjustly being criticized.
Now, could we do better? Sure- there's always someone that could do better. I'm not saying the guy is above replacement or is the best out there. But that's a loaded question because I could ask "Is there someone that could do better than Dan Mullen?", and the answer to that is yes too.
What do I want out of our pitching staff? Well, short term I want them to improve over last year and I want them to win 30 games. Basically, like I've said I want to see them improve over the past year. Of course, everyone wants to dominate. But, like you said, it does take time for players to develop and that's why improvement is the most important thing from year to year. And as I've said, that will happen as long as we continue to add good talent to our team- which is what we're doing.
Finally, I will say this- IF we had fired Butch Thompson after two years under the circumstances that he was working with, it would have been a LOT harder to find someone good becuase those pitching coaches are going to see what I'm seeing. That we fired a guy because he couldn't win with someone else's pitchers one year and then a bunch of freshmen.
Good God, man. High Point University. Their decision to hire Thompson is your justification that he is any good.
Explain to me how Ron Cooper kept bouncing around the SEC. Woody McCorvey. He was an SEC assistant for a long time, so he had to be good, right?
Butch is a nice guy and can recruit. He's been in the league 9 years, and never once in been in the top half of the league in pitching.
You are boxing yourself in. Just give it up. I can't believe Butch Thompson and Dan Mullen are in the same post. Jeebus.
Explain to me how Ron Cooper kept bouncing around the SEC. Woody McCorvey. He was an SEC assistant for a long time, so he had to be good, right?
Butch is a nice guy and can recruit. He's been in the league 9 years, and never once in been in the top half of the league in pitching.
You are boxing yourself in. Just give it up. I can't believe Butch Thompson and Dan Mullen are in the same post. Jeebus.
DowntownDawg said:
when you're talking about a team. Why don't you touch on what happened to Auburn AFTER he left? That's much more telling to me than anything. Their ERA went up by almost a run and a half.
As to where the team finishes in the league? I'm more concerned with improvement rather than where a team finishes in the league. I feel like if a team is showing improvement, they are more than likely headed in the right direction regardless of where they finish in the league.
Like I've said- three of those staffs that he had in your stats weren't even his players. I feel very strongly that they would have continued to improve had he stayed there. Your stats are skewed at best.
Furthermore, if Cohen didn't think Butch was doing a good job, trust me, he will get rid of him. And he's not just staying around because of his recruiting. Lane Burroughs is at least as good a recruiter as Butch- if not better.
Do I really have to explain this?
If you are a bad assistant, why is a D-I coach going to want you as a HEAD COACH. Do you think that D-I schools hire crappy coaches just for the heck of it?
You want people on your staff that people want to move up to higher positions.
If you are a bad assistant, why is a D-I coach going to want you as a HEAD COACH. Do you think that D-I schools hire crappy coaches just for the heck of it?
You want people on your staff that people want to move up to higher positions.
looking at this in a very logical way.
The next time we have a coaching vacancy for a head coach, be it football, basketball, or baseball. How excited would you be if we went out and hired the coach that spent the majority of his time being the worst head coach in the league? How excited would you be if that coach, in his best years, which have been pretty few and far between, didn't even manage to get into the top HALF of the SEC.
If instead of hiring Dan Mullen, we had hired a guy that had been head coach in the SEC for 9 years and had only finished out of the cellar, 3 out of 9 years, this board would have erupted and the fan base would have **** on the entire deal. That is basically the argument you are making right now, that we should be happy and keep giving a chance to a guy that has constantly performed will below the other 11 teams in the SEC with the exception of 3 or, if you count coming in 11th out of 12 teams, 4 years.
How thrilled will you be if we finally get rid of stans and were to replace him with a guy that has a documented track record of being a much worse coach than him?
The next time we have a coaching vacancy for a head coach, be it football, basketball, or baseball. How excited would you be if we went out and hired the coach that spent the majority of his time being the worst head coach in the league? How excited would you be if that coach, in his best years, which have been pretty few and far between, didn't even manage to get into the top HALF of the SEC.
If instead of hiring Dan Mullen, we had hired a guy that had been head coach in the SEC for 9 years and had only finished out of the cellar, 3 out of 9 years, this board would have erupted and the fan base would have **** on the entire deal. That is basically the argument you are making right now, that we should be happy and keep giving a chance to a guy that has constantly performed will below the other 11 teams in the SEC with the exception of 3 or, if you count coming in 11th out of 12 teams, 4 years.
How thrilled will you be if we finally get rid of stans and were to replace him with a guy that has a documented track record of being a much worse coach than him?