Wow...might want to brush up on your horse racing knowledge. One of the more asinine statements in a while.
American Pharoah to run in the Travers Stakes
- Thread starter Glenn's Take
- Start date
Wow...might want to brush up on your horse racing knowledge. One of the more asinine statements in a while.
I don't like the strategy to lead wire to wire, although it's worked in the past. Today it caught with AP.
Caught a deep track that didn't do him any favors...Frosted as well. Keen Ice went on by two tired horses.
to be precise with my comment: compared only to the triple crown winners since the 70s, I don't see that AP faced as tough competition. He did not have to beat a great 2nd place horse in back to back races like Secretariat and Affirmed did (Sham, Alydar). And that would be back to back to back in Affirmed's case. I don't see that any of the horses that AP defeated in the triple crown this year were as strong as either of those two horses. Even Run Dusty Run finished 2nd, 3rd, and 2nd in the triple crown races during Seattle Slew's triple crown season. None of the horses competing against Pharoah performed ANYTHING to that caliber this triple crown season. Other than Pharoah, no other horse repeated in the money in the 3 triple crown races this year. Firing Line, 2nd in the Derby, just awful in the Preakness.
Verve, 2nd in the Preakness, went off at 55-1 today. Finished more than 3 1/2 seconds off Keen Ice - an eternity.
Alydar, a much better racehorse than any horse American Pharoah beat this year.
Please note I am NOT saying Pharoah is not a great horse. Sad to see his loss today and hated the way he was getting bumped. Would really like to see him race as a 4-year old. No way that will happen.
I think they did a huge disservice to Keen I ce and his ownership. After AP Lost, instead of celebrating Keen Ices victory against the odds, all the cameras were focused on the 2nd place finisher, Baffert, Espinoza, the owners, etc. it was a good 10 minutes before they even interviewed the winning horses owner. They didn't have a reporter riding alongside keen ice interviewing the jockey about how he beat AP. Huge disservice and disrespect to the victor.
I wrote this explanation last night. Refute it:
to be precise with my comment: compared only to the triple crown winners since the 70s, I don't see that AP faced as tough competition. He did not have to beat a great 2nd place horse in back to back races like Secretariat and Affirmed did (Sham, Alydar). And that would be back to back to back in Affirmed's case. I don't see that any of the horses that AP defeated in the triple crown this year were as strong as either of those two horses. Even Run Dusty Run finished 2nd, 3rd, and 2nd in the triple crown races during Seattle Slew's triple crown season. None of the horses competing against Pharoah performed ANYTHING to that caliber this triple crown season. Other than Pharoah, no other horse repeated in the money in the 3 triple crown races this year. Firing Line, 2nd in the Derby, just awful in the Preakness.
Verve, 2nd in the Preakness, went off at 55-1 today. Finished more than 3 1/2 seconds off Keen Ice - an eternity.
Alydar, a much better racehorse than any horse American Pharoah beat this year.
Please note I am NOT saying Pharoah is not a great horse. Sad to see his loss today and hated the way he was getting bumped. Would really like to see him race as a 4-year old. No way that will happen.
While Keen Ice's owner was waiting to be interviewed they had the option of counting the extra $300,000 they won just because AP was in the race. NYRA increased the purse by $500,000 because AP was in it and people wanted to see him.
Interesting take, Kopi. It sounded absolutely asinine when you made it, but you backed it up pretty good (albeit with some faulty logic).
1. It's not AP's fault he didn't have a real rival to test him every race. It's unique to get a horse to run all 3 events (especially if they aren't the winner) in this era of racing.
2. Hell, Sham and Alydar are two of the best racehorses of all time. It's just tough luck they were foaled in those years. It takes a perfect storm to have that kind of rivalry. The last great TC rivalry was Easy Goer and Sunday Silence 3 decades ago.
3. The argument was how deep the field of 3 Year olds was this year; not who AP's Sham was. Dortmund, Firing Line, Frosted, and now Keen Ice are all talented runners. It was a deep, talented field. It's not like he was running against Claimers for the past 5 months. You know this.
1. It's not AP's fault he didn't have a real rival to test him every race. It's unique to get a horse to run all 3 events (especially if they aren't the winner) in this era of racing.
2. Hell, Sham and Alydar are two of the best racehorses of all time. It's just tough luck they were foaled in those years. It takes a perfect storm to have that kind of rivalry. The last great TC rivalry was Easy Goer and Sunday Silence 3 decades ago.
3. The argument was how deep the field of 3 Year olds was this year; not who AP's Sham was. Dortmund, Firing Line, Frosted, and now Keen Ice are all talented runners. It was a deep, talented field. It's not like he was running against Claimers for the past 5 months. You know this.
I'm glad you mentioned Dortmund. Going into the Derby,he was probably the best horse to challenge AP. To evaluate quality of competition during the triple crown season, I have to look back and ask this question: how did they perform? Truthfully, Dortmund was probably Pharoah's best competition, finishing 3rd against him in the Derby, and 4th against him in the Preakness, on a very wet and sloppy day.
Dortmund couldn't hold a candle to Alydar, Sham or Run Dusty Run based on the way he competed.
Dortmund couldn't hold a candle to Alydar, Sham or Run Dusty Run based on the way he competed.
You are mistaking the words "deep field" and "world class rival" it appears. Outside of Easy Goer and Point Given, there has been no other 2nd/3rd place Derby finisher in the same class as Alydar and Sham.
If Big Brown would have won the TC, you would have had your "weak crop" argument. I just think you're a little off with that take in 2015.
For funsies, rank the top 5 3 year old classes since Affirmed.
If Big Brown would have won the TC, you would have had your "weak crop" argument. I just think you're a little off with that take in 2015.
For funsies, rank the top 5 3 year old classes since Affirmed.
Why rank top classes since Affirmed? Why not go back a few years? Anyway, I would have liked to have seen the jockey interview of the WINNER who beat the UNBEATABLE horse, but I turned it off before they got around to it. Second place finishers never turned me on.
With all due respect to the more knowledgeable on this thread about horse racing, which is probably most of you, how do you know how good this group of 3 year olds is? Fourth place finisher in the 1973 Derby, way back of Secretariat, was Forego. He turned out "OK" as I recall. Cigar did not win a Stakes race as a three year old. He did pretty good too.
There is one inherent problem with ranking crops of horses because of the shortness of their careers. Horses run only against 2 years olds at 2 and mostly only against 3 year olds as 3 and then get retired to stud. If you are trying rank draft classes in the NBA because you can see each class play against the others. So few of the really good horses race as an older horse (especially anymore) that you never get to see the crops race against each other. At least at the top end of the sport.
His Belmont was the 2nd fastest time of any triple crown winner and closing quarter in the Belmont was faster than Secretariat. Also, he could have also destroyed the Haskell time record had he been asked.
He fast.
And i do think he will bounce back after all the racing and win the Breeders Cup race. The travel, the grind of the triple crown, and frosted bumping him was too much to overcome.
He fast.
And i do think he will bounce back after all the racing and win the Breeders Cup race. The travel, the grind of the triple crown, and frosted bumping him was too much to overcome.
~Flying back and forth caught up to him. At Mth, they did what they needed to do, but I think Espinoza knew he had a short horse under him, thus him wrapping up mid-stretch (Might also explain why they waited an extra day to ship out). Sure, we joked about the ease of the win, even Anth said he could've moon walked across the wire, but in hindsight, that was a tired horse we saw, and last week proved it to an extent.
~Travers, he was drenched in the post parade, and was still lathered pretty good on the clubhouse turn. Also during the race, particularly on the backside, he didnt have that same fluid stride we're used to seeing. That said, the fact the colt ran the race he did, speaks volumes to his grit.
You think Rosario would've rode Frosted the same way Lezcano did? I dont know either, but the NYRA jocks sure werent gonna just let him and Espinoza have it. :boxing:
Training him up to the BC is key as his pre-cup schedule leaves a bit to be desired. Cant believe he wont race against older horses until 10/31..
Anyone see the purses they're running for at Kentucky Downs this meet. $120,000 MSW. $125,000 allowance races. That's crazy.
Last edited: