Another Mullen Debate: Recruiting Philosphy

[missouridawg]

It's become pretty obvious that Urban Meyer recruited the best athletes period at Florida and that he did a pretty poor job of culling that recruit list of bad apples (Janoris Jenkins, Aaron Hernandez, Cam Newton, etc...). Did Mullen adopt his strict recruiting policies after seeing what Urban went through at Florida? Does Mullen err on the side of extreme caution with his recruiting with us?

 

[starkvegasdawg]

Chris Hughs doesn't think so.

 

[Requiem For A Dawg]

I don't think it has anything to do with his philosophy. I just don't think he is a good recruiter. Look how bad we've recruited the position he coaches for a small sample size.

 

[Heawww]

You guys couldn't be further from the truth. Mullen knows his sell and he knows where he is. We simply aren't going to attract all the top guys at MSU. It's not going to happen. Even if we win it won't happen. The only way to do that is have a budget the size of LSU or USC. We may get there one day, but we don't as of now, and won't for another 20 years. So we have to do things unconventionally.

It just makes me scratch my head watching some of you ridicule Mullen for not playing Alabama's game. It's not possible. Ole Miss will find that out soon. For all their stars and hype and Talty articles, they MAY have 4-5 guys that could start for Alabama. Same for us. They are fighting a losing battle, and so are we if we think we can just go out and out-recruit the best. If you hadn't noticed, it's mostly the school that does the recruiting for the coach. Yeah, the coach helps, but the equation equals out in the end.

Having said that, what does Mullen have to do? Well, I think he's taking the Ferentz approach: redshirt lots of guys and build up the OL. He's taking advantage of JUCOs. He's running a tight ship. He's recruiting for a dual-threat offense. At this point he hasn't been able to implement it all because Russell and the rest were already committed when he got here and he knew he had to get players, one way or the other.

At the end of the day, we should be looking to guys like Frank Beamer and Bill Snyder to get ideas on our strategy. NOT Alabama, LSU, etc.

 

[mcdawg22]

Who are the four or five that would start at Bama? I got Gabe Jackson and maybe Autry.

 

[dawg21]

My main problem is QB recruiting....everything else makes sense and I think is a good strategy for our program. The new facilities will help. Gotta get to another bowl game this year, which will be a successful season in my opinion.

The redshirt philosophy should show benefits this year...but I said the same thing last year.

 

[Heawww]

My main problem is QB recruiting

I understand this completely. Actually another point I wanted to add is that we absolutely have to have a dynamic QB to succeed. But you are seeing an incomplete picture if you don't consider that we are MSU....I know, I know, I hate the woe is us too but it's just reality.....we have never succeeded with QBs and more often than not we end up booing them off the field (which I pray doesn't happen with Russell this year).

But I look at it like this. Until we truly succeed with a QB we can't hope to sign the good ones. We had Russell gift wrapped, so Mullen had to use him. Look what he did with Relf in 2010, then we signed Prescott in the 2011 class (one year later). Then in 2013 we got a solid guy in Williams. Now we have Staley. Bottom line is, we had to give him a little time to first prove he could have a QB succeed then actually be able to get one. Yeah we missed in 2010 and 2012 but give the guy a break. We aren't going to be able to stock a roster with QBs until we prove we're worthy of it.

And another prediction that I'm sticking to....after this season, the QB curse will be erased. I think Russell has a big year....dual threat or not.

 

[Dan Dority]

My main problem is QB recruiting....everything else makes sense and I think is a good strategy for our program. The new facilities will help. Gotta get to another bowl game this year, which will be a successful season in my opinion.

The redshirt philosophy should show benefits this year...but I said the same thing last year.

Big 10-4!!!

 

[DerHntr]

You guys couldn't be further from the truth. Mullen knows his sell and he knows where he is. We simply aren't going to attract all the top guys at MSU. It's not going to happen. Even if we win it won't happen. The only way to do that is have a budget the size of LSU or USC. We may get there one day, but we don't as of now, and won't for another 20 years. So we have to do things unconventionally.

It just makes me scratch my head watching some of you ridicule Mullen for not playing Alabama's game. It's not possible. Ole Miss will find that out soon. For all their stars and hype and Talty articles, they MAY have 4-5 guys that could start for Alabama. Same for us. They are fighting a losing battle, and so are we if we think we can just go out and out-recruit the best. If you hadn't noticed, it's mostly the school that does the recruiting for the coach. Yeah, the coach helps, but the equation equals out in the end.

Having said that, what does Mullen have to do? Well, I think he's taking the Ferentz approach: redshirt lots of guys and build up the OL. He's taking advantage of JUCOs. He's running a tight ship. He's recruiting for a dual-threat offense. At this point he hasn't been able to implement it all because Russell and the rest were already committed when he got here and he knew he had to get players, one way or the other.

At the end of the day, we should be looking to guys like Frank Beamer and Bill Snyder to get ideas on our strategy. NOT Alabama, LSU, etc.

So are you saying that if Freeze is able to get a top five recruiting class every year that he'll only have 4 to 5 guys at any given time who could start for Bama?

 

[Heawww]

He hasn't even had ONE Top 5 class yet. Get real, guy. Even last year they were 8 according to 247 composite, good for 4th in the SEC with Georgia and Texas A&M right behind them. And it's safe to say he won't have that good of a class again. They were able to attain that due to Nkemdiche, nothing more, nothing less.

Out of their class last year, how many did Alabama/LSU want? Nkemdiche and Conner, a few more. Alabama had a class full of those type guys. Just so this doesn't turn into a rebel pissing match, I'm not taking credit away from them, they did a great job. But they aren't winning any SEC titles anytime soon.

 

[missouridawg]

Chris Hughs doesn't think so.

Chris Hughes is only one of a few in Mullen's first 5 years to cause major problems. Urban Meyer had 2 or 3 a year that were really bad apples.

 

[Angelo Pappas]

My take

Agree with Requiem For A Dawg that Mullen isn't a good recruiter. He just doesn't have the personality/psychology for it. He's a good Xs and Os coach, good gameday coach, good program manager, good motivator, but not a strong recruiter. What's surprising is that he hasn't added more position coaches to his staff whose expertise is recruiting. Brewster was a fraud, but he could recruit. Gonzales is potentially a strong recruiter. Maybe Townsend will be too.

Disagree with Heawww that top recruiting classes can't consistently be signed at MSU. The right head coach and staff could do it. I'm not saying the right coaching staff would out recruit AL, LSU, and FL year-in year-out. But the right coach and staff would sign enough of the top recruits and find enough legit sleepers so that MSU would be competitive with those teams from a physicality/athleticism standpoint most years. Look at what Mark Stoops is doing at KY in only a few short months. Obviously it's way too early to call Stoops a great recruiter and who knows what kind of coach he'll be, but he has changed the recruiting mindset in Lexington in a hurry. And look at what Orgeron recruited to Oxford in his 3 years as head coach. Even though those '08 and '09 teams that Nutt coached (and Orgeron recruited) both went 8-4, which isn't great, those teams physically and athletically matched up with just about every team in the SEC. If those types of players can be recruited to Lexington and Oxford, then they can be recruited to Starkville too.

Agree with Heawww that redshirting and player development can help overcome mediocre recruiting. This approach is probably worth 1 extra win per year on average against teams who are more talented but younger and less disciplined. Cutcliffe was not a strong recruiter at Ole Miss, but one thing he did to combat that was redshirt almost everyone he signed.

 

[Heawww]

Disagree with Heawww that top recruiting classes can't consistently be signed at MSU. The right head coach and staff could do it. I'm not saying the right coaching staff would out recruit AL, LSU, and FL year-in year-out. But the right coach and staff would sign enough of the top recruits and find enough legit sleepers so that MSU would be competitive with those teams from a physicality/athleticism standpoint most years. Look at what Mark Stoops is doing at KY in only a few short months. Obviously it's way too early to call Stoops a great recruiter and who knows what kind of coach he'll be, but he has changed the recruiting mindset in Lexington in a hurry. And look at what Orgeron recruited to Oxford in his 3 years as head coach. Even though those '08 and '09 teams that Nutt coached (and Orgeron recruited) both went 8-4, which isn't great, those teams physically and athletically matched up with just about every team in the SEC. If those types of players can be recruited to Lexington and Oxford, then they can be recruited to Starkville too.

That's fair enough. But again I ask, if 8-4 is what we want, well, we're already doing that. Or at least close. Mark Stoops is selling playing time, much like we did in 2009 and 2010. I don't see that their class is all that great anyway, it's nothing we haven't done before. And let me say, yes, we HAVE to sign some good players, that goes without saying. But in reality, those players can come from MS and the surrounding areas....the only players we have a legit shot to sign 4 and 5 star guys. To fill out the rest of the roster, we have to get ingenious. JUCOs, transfers, QB and redshirting is a start. A different, attractive offense is another. I don't have the answers, but I'm not stupid enough to think we can do something that isn't possible. Scheduling easier teams helps too. Jackie took questionable players, but he was always good about controlling that, until the end when he was distracted and let it go.

 

[Heawww]

Agreed. You really can't hold discipline against Mullen, he's actually been better than Croom about it.

 

[RebFan.sixpack]

Not a pissing match at all, but what do you think the difference is between a #5 ranked class, and a #8 ranked class (obviously smart asses would say, "3 places huh huh huh")? Just saying if either school can recruit in the 5 to 15 range and keep them in school I'd be very surprised if you couldn't compete yr after yr with the top schools in the conference. Nutt recruited great...on paper. They just never actually got to play football at OM, which I think is necessary to be competitive. Also, to what do you attribute OM's success recruiting QBs lately (assuming Doss signs)?

 

[Angelo Pappas]

Problem is 8-4 is probably the ceiling right now due to MSU's talent level compared to other SEC teams. Having comparable talent to the top SEC programs doesn't guarantee you 10 wins per year, but it makes it possible to win 10 if everything comes together. The flip side is having mediocre talent and going 8-4 as a best case scenario due to a favorable schedule.

I don't have the answers either. But I do think the right coaching staff could sign enough top level recruits to Starkville to make MSU competitive from a talent standpoint with the FLs, LSUs, and UGAs of the world most years. And I'm not saying Mullen should be fired or is on the hot seat either. But it does seem like recruiting is his one weakness.

 

[DerHntr]

He hasn't even had ONE Top 5 class yet. Get real, guy. Even last year they were 8 according to 247 composite, good for 4th in the SEC with Georgia and Texas A&M right behind them. And it's safe to say he won't have that good of a class again. They were able to attain that due to Nkemdiche, nothing more, nothing less.

Out of their class last year, how many did Alabama/LSU want? Nkemdiche and Conner, a few more. Alabama had a class full of those type guys. Just so this doesn't turn into a rebel pissing match, I'm not taking credit away from them, they did a great job. But they aren't winning any SEC titles anytime soon.

So your take is don't worry about recruiting well since we can't win anyway. Got it.

 

[Todd4State]

Both of you are missing the point

That's fair enough. But again I ask, if 8-4 is what we want, well, we're already doing that. Or at least close. Mark Stoops is selling playing time, much like we did in 2009 and 2010. I don't see that their class is all that great anyway, it's nothing we haven't done before. And let me say, yes, we HAVE to sign some good players, that goes without saying. But in reality, those players can come from MS and the surrounding areas....the only players we have a legit shot to sign 4 and 5 star guys. To fill out the rest of the roster, we have to get ingenious. JUCOs, transfers, QB and redshirting is a start. A different, attractive offense is another. I don't have the answers, but I'm not stupid enough to think we can do something that isn't possible. Scheduling easier teams helps too. Jackie took questionable players, but he was always good about controlling that, until the end when he was distracted and let it go.

Dan is not a bad recruiter. I know you are shocked but hear me out. The REAL problem is Bracky Brett being the hall monitor and trying to look good to the NCAA. Until Scott fixes this, we are going to struggle in recruiting. He is costing us scholarships unnecessarily and doesn't have MSU's best interests at heart. By putting us in the range of repeat violator status, he could potentially cripple the program for the next seven years.

Ask yourself why we got almost the EXACT same penalties as Oregon a few days ago even though what Oregon did involved a lot more money.

 

[Heawww]

On the differences in 5 and 8, probably not much, but the rank in the conference was the big point. And look, you earned that 4th place finish, it's hard to do. Point remains that you're likely not finishing that high again, and even still, that class wasn't ELITE. Very good, elite for Ole Miss, sure....but not elite nationally. As I showed, Bama/Texas/etc. have a class equal or better than that every year.

As far as Ole Miss recruiting QBs, seems like they are doing what they've always done. Nothing special. Again, not getting into the difference in 3 and 4 stars, rankings, etc. I just don't see an Eli Manning on the roster. I'm sure Buchanan and Kincade are good, but they aren't studs.

I guess we'll just have to see if Freeze proves me wrong. If Alabama/LSU/etc. falls off, perhaps that opens the door. They are due for a down cycle.

 

[Heawww]

Bracky Brett might be A problem, but he's far from what the difference truly is between MSU and Alabama.

I'm not missing any point.

 

[Heawww]

So your take is don't worry about recruiting

I didn't say that. Looks like you can't prove me wrong, so you make up ****.

 

[drt7891]

I honestly think the Bracky thing is blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think he necessarily helps us out as much as we want, but I don't think he is hurting us as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If we got rid of Bracky and got a former NCAA investigator lawyer type, I don't think it would help us as much as people think. It's a culture change much more than it is a compliance director change.

 

[RebFan.sixpack]

You're right bout one thing, there are no Mannings on our roster, or anybody else's either. But I'm unclear about your point and the differences between MSU and OM recruiting. Are the MSU 4* guys "studs"? If so, why are ours not?

 

[Heawww]

Nobody said MSU was bringing in studs. I don't know if MSU and Ole Miss are bringing in much different of an athlete or not. No doubt that Ole Miss is getting the fanfare and a few more widely perceived 'star' athletes. I think Freeze is doing exactly what he needs to do, and so is Mullen. Believe it or not (and this goes for our fans), but Mullen really has brought in some solid players. You all will see this in the fall.

And yes there are Manning types on other people's roster. Every year. Check the NFL draft. The top 10 are usually pretty elite athletes that carried their teams in college. They may not be Super Bowl MVPs but you get my point. Don't get too technical.

 

[DerHntr]

I didn't say that. Looks like you can't prove me wrong, so you make up ****.

You stated very clearly that OM won't be winning any championships in the SEC anytime soon. I took that as you saying it doesn't matter what we or they do because we can't win the SEC. So why be motivated to recruit better? Just go half *** and beat the scrubs on our schedule.

 

[RebFan.sixpack]

Having trouble following the logic: Your original point is MSU can't recruit like the Elite teams, DerHntr says what about OM?, you say #8s not elite but is good for 4th in the conference (ahead of TAMU and GA), but MSU can't expect to recruit elite QBs, I say what about OM (4 x 4* guys in 3 yrs , if Doss signs), you say, "they're not elite"....ahh just nevermind

 

[BigLeagueChew]

You're an idiot to think State can never recruit talented players

If Nick Saban was State's coach, he'd have top-5 classes every year. It's the staff and not the school.

While I don't believe in rankings, at least get your facts right:

#4 - 24/7
http://247sports.com/Season/2013-Football/TeamRankings

#5 - ESPN
http://insider.espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/classrankings?class=2013

 

[RockstarFromMars]

Not that it particularly detracts from your overall point, but Texas was ranked #17 composite last year. A&M is taking over Texas. And while he may not repeat a top 10 performance, Ole Miss is currently ranked #11 composite with half of their commits unranked on Rivals/Scout and is in a good position with several big name prospects.

 

[jacksonreb]

^^^^^this^^^^^ any school including msu and ole miss can win big IF they hire the right guy. the problem for us both is not just finding the "right" guy but KEEPING HIM. i think we've found the right guy and with some luck we can keep him cause he's an ole miss guy. but BLC is dead on. its not the school its the staff. saban could win the nat'l chp at vandy or utah.

 

[Snog]

I don't think he can recruit. Three reasons.

1. The same was continually said about him coming out of Florida by their folks.

2. I don't see us closing the talent gap with the top teams in the league. The on field results prove this.

3. It took him five years to figure out how important it is to recruit Mississippi jucos.........heavily.

 

[Heawww]

You stated very clearly that OM won't be winning any championships in the SEC anytime soon. I took that as you saying it doesn't matter what we or they do because we can't win the SEC.

You need to quit "taking" things in any certain way and see the big picture. Ole Miss isn't winning the SEC anytime soon, and neither are we, until we do something differently besides "recruit better".

The rest of the crap you posted that I didn't quote was useless drivel.

 

[Heawww]

saban could win the nat'l chp at vandy or utah.

This is not true.

 

[99jc]

your an idiot to say saban would be top 5 every year. he is in right situation to do what he does.

[h=3]College[/h]

Year	Team	Overall	Conference	Standing	Bowl/playoffs	Coaches[SUP]#[/SUP]	AP[SUP]°[/SUP]
Toledo Rockets (Mid-American Conference) <small>(1990)</small>
1990	Toledo	9–2	7–1	T–1st
Toledo:	9–2	7–1
Michigan State Spartans (Big Ten Conference) <small>(1995–1999)</small>
1995	Michigan State	6–5–1	4–3–1	5th	L Independence
1996	Michigan State	6–6	5–3	5th	L Sun
1997	Michigan State	7–5	4–4	6th	L Aloha
1998	Michigan State	6–6	4–4	6th
1999	Michigan State	9–2*	6–2	2nd	Invited to Citrus*	9*	9*
Michigan State:	34–24–1	23–16–1	* <small>Saban resigned before bowl game.</small>
LSU Tigers (Southeastern Conference) <small>(2000–2004)</small>
2000	LSU	8–4	5–3	3rd <small>(West)</small>	W Peach		22
2001	LSU	10–3	5–3	1st <small>(West)</small>	W Sugar[SUP]†[/SUP]	8	7
2002	LSU	8-5	5–3	T–2nd <small>(West)</small>	L Cotton
2003	LSU	13–1	7–1	1st <small>(West)</small>	W BCS NCG[SUP]†[/SUP]	1	2
2004	LSU	9–3	6–2	2nd <small>(West)</small>	L Capital One	16	16
LSU:	48–16	28–12
Alabama Crimson Tide (Southeastern Conference) <small>(2007–present)</small>
2007	Alabama	7–6[SUP][a][/SUP]	4–4[SUP][a][/SUP]	T–3rd <small>(West)</small>	W Independence
2008	Alabama	12–2	8–0	1st <small>(West)</small>	L Sugar[SUP]†[/SUP]	6	6
2009	Alabama	14–0	8–0	1st <small>(West)</small>	W BCS NCG[SUP]†[/SUP]	1	1
2010	Alabama	10–3	5–3	3rd <small>(West)</small>	W Capital One	11	10
2011	Alabama	12–1	7–1	2nd <small>(West)</small>	W BCS NCG[SUP]†[/SUP]	1	1
2012	Alabama	13–1	7–1	1st <small>(West)</small>	W BCS NCG[SUP]†[/SUP]	1	1
2013	Alabama	0–0	0–0
Alabama:	68–13	39–9
Total:	159–55–1
<small> National championship Conference title Conference division title</small>
<small>[SUP]†[/SUP]Indicates BCS bowl, Bowl Alliance or Bowl Coalition game. [SUP]#[/SUP]Rankings from final Coaches' Poll. [SUP]°[/SUP]Rankings from final AP Poll.</small>

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[missouridawg]

Not a pissing match at all, but what do you think the difference is between a #5 ranked class, and a #8 ranked class (obviously smart asses would say, "3 places huh huh huh")? Just saying if either school can recruit in the 5 to 15 range and keep them in school I'd be very surprised if you couldn't compete yr after yr with the top schools in the conference. Nutt recruited great...on paper. They just never actually got to play football at OM, which I think is necessary to be competitive. Also, to what do you attribute OM's success recruiting QBs lately (assuming Doss signs)?

Are you going to chime in on every 17ing recruiting thread on this board? If so, someone go ahead and ban this mother 17er so we can have a discussion about MSU recruiting and not turn this into a "our recruit class is better than your recruiting class" pissing match.

 

[Shamoan]

considering msu is not a top 25 program, mullen is recruiting like a beast. 2009 (19th), 2010 (38th), 2011 (45th), 2012 (18th), 2013 (22nd)...according to scout anyway...and those arent cherry-picked based off the site...im sure i could manipulate those to look better, but scout's ranking is convenient.

as a recap, mullen has 3 of his 5 classes in the top 25. the 2010 class had dillon day listed as a 2*, ballard as a 3*, malcolm johnson as a 2*, while the 2011 class had Benardrick Mckinney as a 2*, and slay as a 3* (ie, probably better than listed based on how those guys have contributed). now, i will be the first to admit that some of the 4* guys never panned out from each of those classes, but its not like the star system is perfect. i think we have really been let down at the skill positions (primarily wr) and havent done enough with our offensive line evaluations. if we nail down wr and o-line, we are in a much better position to win. relying on 2* left tackles is not a recipe for success in any conference.

i have been critical of mullen at times, but when we say he cant recruit, we need to be careful because he is bringing in better classes than what our standing in the grand scheme of things dictates what we should have. the problem is that, even ten years ago, a top 25 ranking for 4 years in a row generally resulted in a top 25 ranked football program. with the emergence of national championships and every team in the sec west making a bcs bowl except msu and ole miss, its incredibly difficult to compete with top tier teams.

as an example, look at ole miss. composite rankings say they have the 8th-12th best class nationally, but you look in the division, they are 3rd at best and 4th in some. they are hella excited about that, as they should be, but some fail to realize they arent doing **** until saban and jff are gone.....not to mention miles....all those teams have better classes just about every year. congrats to ole miss on achieving a best case scenario of 3rd place assuming that those levels of classes are maintainable....which they arent.

its all relative baby....at this point, i think the best strategy is to do the best we can with what we have and bide our time until this division returns to earth from its current orbit in the stratosphere. weather the storm and make the most intelligent tactical moves we can make and most importantly, continue to make bowls. a huge strategic error was made scheduling okie state imo, but if we win that, it might be worth the risk....who knows.

 

[Heawww]

^^ Somebody else gets it.

 

[Daddy Rabbit Dawg]

Bracky Brett is not the problem...no matter how much you won't it to be.

Dan is not a bad recruiter. I know you are shocked but hear me out. The REAL problem is Bracky Brett being the hall monitor and trying to look good to the NCAA. Until Scott fixes this, we are going to struggle in recruiting. He is costing us scholarships unnecessarily and doesn't have MSU's best interests at heart. By putting us in the range of repeat violator status, he could potentially cripple the program for the next seven years.

Ask yourself why we got almost the EXACT same penalties as Oregon a few days ago even though what Oregon did involved a lot more money.

 

[Todd4State]

Who said anything about Alabama?

Bracky Brett might be A problem, but he's far from what the difference truly is between MSU and Alabama.

I'm not missing any point.

If you think I'm saying that we get rid of Bracky and we would all of a sudden start hauling in top five recruiting classes every year and get whomever we want and would be able to "process" guys out, then yes, you did miss the point.

When other schools allow their boosters to pay for recruits under the table and actually protect their players, it's a HUGE difference. And an unlevel playing field that WE are making unlevel for ourselves unnecessarily.

 

[Todd4State]

You say that we need a culture change

I honestly think the Bracky thing is blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think he necessarily helps us out as much as we want, but I don't think he is hurting us as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If we got rid of Bracky and got a former NCAA investigator lawyer type, I don't think it would help us as much as people think. It's a culture change much more than it is a compliance director change.

And yet, Bracky is from the old LT regime. Replacing him IS a culture change.

He doesn't help us at all and actually ASSISTED the NCAA in finding dirt on Redmond. All he had to do was get Redmond a lawyer and call DeVinner a fat lying bastard- which he could have EASILY justified since he changed his stroy EVERY single time he was interviewed- and then we get off and Redmond plays.

The definition of compliance in todays SEC does not mean "making sure we are following the rules". It means protecting your players and your program. Bracky fails miserably at this.

 

[Todd4State]

Prove it

Bracky Brett is not the problem...no matter how much you won't it to be.

Explain why Oregon got hit just as hard as we did for committing more violations? "Because they are Oregon and we're MSU?"

Why is Auburn getting off scott free? It's not because they are a bigger name school. It's because WE don't do compliance right.