Anther note on private schools

[615dawg]

A common misconception of some of the elite private schools is that if your student goes there, they are destined for greatness. Its not always the case. Sure, Prep and St. Andrew's put kids in elite schools, but its not at the level its perceived. Here are two announcements from yesterday.

Jackson Prep's Marticulation. There are families that spent $100k on a secondary education for their student to end up at a community college. No Ivies this year, but Cal-Berkley is impressive.

Madison Central had a Presidential Scholar. There are only 161 of these in the entire country. Two were from Mississippi. Both from good public schools, Madison Central and Oxford.

 

[MSUDC11]

Certainly a lot depends on the kids and their families. Good schools can do a lot to help good students achieve their goals, but the teachers can’t do it all for them. For most, academic success depends on how inherently gifted the student is, how driven they are, and what kind of support system they have at home.

I’m a public school kid, my wife was as well and is now a public school teacher, absolutely you have public school students that go a long, long way in academics. I graduated from a rural, 4A high school and there are 3-4 people from my graduating class that I can think of that are now doctors.

But I also don’t fault anyone who feels like the best situation for their kids is to send them to a private school. That’s a family decision and if you want to do that and can afford it, I certainly understand why, particularly in towns where the public schools are not good.

 

[8dog]

Just because a kid doesnt go somewhere fancy doesnt mean they couldnt.

And some families place a higher value on the development/growth 7-12 than they do a college degree. I know I do.

 

[SpeckTaker]

Looks like somebody got into clown college **

 

[Maroon Eagle]

This is true.

I've got nephews who graduated from their city's equivalent of St. Andrews/Jackson Prep and they attended vastly different colleges...

 

[mstateglfr]

Looks like somebody got into clown college **

i definitely googled it earlier because i thought they may have changed the name to make it sound legit.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

I attended a private school and am a public school teacher and one of the top academic schools in the state. I was blown away with the difference between what my parents paid for and what these kids get for free. Granted, the public school in my town was beyond terrible, but the private school I attended wasn’t much better. It wasn’t until recently that my mind was blown even more, and I realized why my education wasn’t the best
Private school teachers aren’t required to have a teaching license. Now, some do require it, but most don’t. So, a lot of these teachers haven’t had the background and education to teach. I had no idea.

 

[40 acres and a mule]

Just think. In a few years, all those fancy degrees will be paying through the nose to the CC kid to get their HVAC fixed.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I also attended a private school. It was okay but I was rarely challenged and often bored.

In its advertising, it mentioned universities attended by alums. My sister was responsible for two of the listed universities.

I wish MSMS had existed back then. I don't know if I would have qualified but I would have been interested.

 

[johnson86-1]

I attended a private school and am a public school teacher and one of the top academic schools in the state. I was blown away with the difference between what my parents paid for and what these kids get for free. Granted, the public school in my town was beyond terrible, but the private school I attended wasn’t much better. It wasn’t until recently that my mind was blown even more, and I realized why my education wasn’t the best
Private school teachers aren’t required to have a teaching license. Now, some do require it, but most don’t. So, a lot of these teachers haven’t had the background and education to teach. I had no idea.

They may not have to have a teaching license, but I think for classes counting towards graduation the teacher has to have degrees in their subject matter because of the requirements to be accredited.

 

[KentuckyDawg13]

Both of my kids (now in college) attended private Catholic schools. They are both highly regarded and I was constantly blown away by the mediocrity of their curriculums. I attended public school (Gulfport High) in the 80s and felt I was slighted/not prepared for college. I was correct, as it took me a couple years to figure things out but ended up graduating from MSU.

I also taught at one of the competing private schools known for their athletics so I saw how they operate. It's a busine$$, period.

The school does not define the person. If you want to succeed and you go to some Podunk school, you can still become successful. The only benefit I see with the private schools is networking. Especially here in Louisville.

 

[randystewart]

The 100% is what you should be focused on. There are kids that turn out great and turn our poorly in almost any environment, however you have to put your kids in the best possible circumstances to succeed. *take into account that I live in an area where we don't have the choice for good public schools....
What I like about the private school though is the parent involvement. You put your kid there because you expect something out of them and all of the other parents did the same. You are surrounding them with nearly 100% of other kids that have at least college expected of them. Again, great kids make it from most any situation, but a private school for a mediocre kid may be the difference in a low end college degree job vs. a shovel and a meth problem.

 

[johnson86-1]

I attended a private school and am a public school teacher and one of the top academic schools in the state. I was blown away with the difference between what my parents paid for and what these kids get for free. Granted, the public school in my town was beyond terrible, but the private school I attended wasn’t much better. It wasn’t until recently that my mind was blown even more, and I realized why my education wasn’t the best
Private school teachers aren’t required to have a teaching license. Now, some do require it, but most don’t. So, a lot of these teachers haven’t had the background and education to teach. I had no idea.

Most private schools in Mississippi get by on a shoe string budget and spend less per student than nearby public schools. Mississippi spends $10k per student in public high schools. You can probably count the private schools in the state with more than $10k in tuition on one hand, or at least on both hands. Granted all the private schools get donations and other stuff to top it up, but probably not on the order of $3-4k per student. All that to say, it's not surprising that a lot (most?) of the private schools are mediocre. Money is less important than people make it seem once you get to minimal level, but most private schools in Mississippi are operating at less than that minimal level, and to the extent they are any good, it's because lots of good teachers teach there even though they get paid way less than they would at public school.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Community college are likely for sports, not because they don't have the credentials to get in a 4 year school.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Who cares, the student makes the school, in a general sense. Presidential scholars can come from anywhere (although there's a good chance they will come from a decent school, whatever type that may be).

The bigger question is why Mississippi people pride themselves on leaving the state and going to some prestigious college elsewhere. What if everyone wanted to go to MSU/Ole Miss/etc. and then kept their intellectual property in the state? I can dream.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

A huge part of that "per student" spend is for incredibly bloated admin. I don't think that metric tells much about what students get/don't get.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

Are you saying that you were a Rock for a little while?

 

[johnson86-1]

A huge part of that "per student" spend is for incredibly bloated admin. I don't think that metric tells much about what students get/don't get.

Not that the public school admin is not bloated, but you're talking about most private schools getting by on 20% or even 40% less than what the nearby public school spends per student. Even if you adjust the public schools down for a bloated administration, I don't think you're knocking 20% off the cost.


Just a few comparisons from this website https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-least-equitable-school-districts-in-mississippi/77096 and whatever tuition numbers I can find online:

Cleveland: $9,194 per studnet. Bayou Academy tuition $5,100 (
Greenville: $8,897 - Greenville Christian $4,250 (can't find Washington school; guessing it's higher)
Canton: $8,919 - Canton Academy $6,426
Greenwood: $9,048 - Pillow academy $6,930
Grenada: $8,575 - Kirk Academy $5,200
Hattiesburg: $10,105 - PCS $8,920

Those are the highest tuitions, which pushes the numbers for the private schools up. That does not include donations obviously, but I'm not sure the public school numbers do either.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I'm cynical in that regard. I see an inconceivable number of principals, superintendents, and all the "normal" positions that are just overstaffed by far. Then, every single retired teacher can come back and work for central office at a $65 - $75/hour rate to consult as a "specialist". I have no data to argue specific %, but man it has to be a high amount of waste simply because these are the least work/most pay positions available and there are a bunch of them.

 

[johnson86-1]

I'm cynical in that regard. I see an inconceivable number of principals, superintendents, and all the "normal" positions that are just overstaffed by far. Then, every single retired teacher can come back and work for central office at a $65 - $75/hour rate to consult as a "specialist". I have no data to argue specific %, but man it has to be a high amount of waste simply because these are the least work/most pay positions available and there are a bunch of them.

Just to put the numbers in perspective, there are 470k public school students and 162 school districts, so about 2,900 students per district. If each school district was carrying an extra $3M in bloated overhead, that's about $1k per student. Of course, some districts are tiny and some of the highest per pupil spending is in smaller districts, so that is probably a big driver in those, but those districts tend to have $12k+ in spending per pupil, so even if you assign them a much higher number for administrative bloat, they also tend to be much higher than most private schools also.

 

[Faustdog]

True, and UVA, TCU, and Wake Forest aren’t enrolling a bunch of kids from Germantown high either.

And there is of course nothing at all wrong with Germantown High, just like there is nothing wrong with MSU or Ole Miss.

A part of the benefit of sending kids to schools like Prep is that they are more likely to be exposed to other options like the schools above through their peer group.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

I've seen you hammer on overpaid admin before and you couldn't be more right. This is my last year in my current district, but we recently created an ***. superintendent and a another district coordinator position that likely pays close to 6 figures or more during the current school year. Meanwhile, us teachers are told we don't have enough resources to create/hire new positions, and coaches are told they don't have enough money for a stipend to add sports to their staffs. And we're not a multi-school district. One high school. It's all about test scores.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Not that the public school admin is not bloated, but you're talking about most private schools getting by on 20% or even 40% less than what the nearby public school spends per student. Even if you adjust the public schools down for a bloated administration, I don't think you're knocking 20% off the cost.


Just a few comparisons from this website https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-least-equitable-school-districts-in-mississippi/77096 and whatever tuition numbers I can find online:

Cleveland: $9,194 per studnet. Bayou Academy tuition $5,100 (
Greenville: $8,897 - Greenville Christian $4,250 (can't find Washington school; guessing it's higher)
Canton: $8,919 - Canton Academy $6,426
Greenwood: $9,048 - Pillow academy $6,930
Grenada: $8,575 - Kirk Academy $5,200
Hattiesburg: $10,105 - PCS $8,920

Those are the highest tuitions, which pushes the numbers for the private schools up. That does not include donations obviously, but I'm not sure the public school numbers do either.

How many of those private school teachers are retired from the public school system? Thus drawing full retirement and medical and able to take the pay cut (and cut some major costs for the private schools)?

And no private school I know has a paid school board, paid superintendent, and 15+ paid superintendent staff. Add in how many private schools operate busses?

Just looking at adding one bus for every 50 students, plus a driver and maintenance adds ~$1,500 per student to the costs.

 

[wayneland5025]

Many parents choose private school for perceived social status of private schools and because daddies want their sons to make the varsity football and basketball teams, no matter how baed they may happen to be.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Certainly a lot depends on the kids and their families. Good schools can do a lot to help good students achieve their goals, but the teachers can’t do it all for them. For most, academic success depends on how inherently gifted the student is, how driven they are, and what kind of support system they have at home.

I’m a public school kid, my wife was as well and is now a public school teacher, absolutely you have public school students that go a long, long way in academics. I graduated from a rural, 4A high school and there are 3-4 people from my graduating class that I can think of that are now doctors.

But I also don’t fault anyone who feels like the best situation for their kids is to send them to a private school. That’s a family decision and if you want to do that and can afford it, I certainly understand why, particularly in towns where the public schools are not good.

Per many studies (like the 9 listed here https://buildthefoundation.org/issue/high-quality-early-care-and-education/#marker-5779-4), a big difference is early childhood education. Providing education childcare as early at 18 months pays for itself in 2 ways, it allows more women in the workforce, and it advances the kids a grade level in skills, increases the number of graduates, increases the number of college students and much much more..

 

[johnson86-1]

How many of those private school teachers are retired from the public school system? Thus drawing full retirement and medical and able to take the pay cut (and cut some major costs for the private schools)?

Not sure. I don't think it's very many but could be wrong.

And no private school I know has a paid school board, paid superintendent, and 15+ paid superintendent staff.

I think school board pay in Mississippi is pretty minimal. This less than a few thousand per year. The superintendent and staff is a lot of overhead, but private schools do have organizations to pay for. Of course, they presumably run them pretty lean, unlike the public ones, as they have to keep parents happy.

Add in how many private schools operate busses?

Just looking at adding one bus for every 50 students, plus a driver and maintenance adds ~$1,500 per student to the costs.

That's a good point. But do they really have one bus for 50 students? I would have thought one bus would take more than 50 students in a day by the time they did an elementary, middle school, and high school route and then of course lots of students wouldn't ride the bus.

Also, I guess every school district has one or more speech pathologists. And I'm guessing most districts have one or more nurses?

 

[olblue]

A common misconception of some of the elite private schools is that if your student goes there, they are destined for greatness. Its not always the case. Sure, Prep and St. Andrew's put kids in elite schools, but its not at the level its perceived. Here are two announcements from yesterday.

Jackson Prep's Marticulation. There are families that spent $100k on a secondary education for their student to end up at a community college. No Ivies this year, but Cal-Berkley is impressive.

Madison Central had a Presidential Scholar. There are only 161 of these in the entire country. Two were from Mississippi. Both from good public schools, Madison Central and Oxford.

Rollins, TCU, Wake and UVA are very impressive landing spots.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

Many parents choose private because daddies want their sons to make the varsity football and basketball teams, no matter how baed they may happen to be.

So 17n what.

Oh, You or your kid lost their private school PT to the public school transfer. Hahahahaha.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

I've seen you hammer on overpaid admin before and you couldn't be more right. This is my last year in my current district, but we recently created an ***. superintendent and a another district coordinator position that likely pays close to 6 figures or more during the current school year. Meanwhile, us teachers are told we don't have enough resources to create/hire new positions, and coaches are told they don't have enough money for a stipend to add sports to their staffs. And we're not a multi-school district. One high school. It's all about test scores.

I understand why you see this as a negative but I see it as additional jobs. Why don't you put in for one of those positions?

 

[KentuckyDawg13]

Yep, for two years. Left my legacy; started a mtbike team. ;-)

 

[SheltonChoked]

Not sure. I don't think it's very many but could be wrong.

I think school board pay in Mississippi is pretty minimal. This less than a few thousand per year. The superintendent and staff is a lot of overhead, but private schools do have organizations to pay for. Of course, they presumably run them pretty lean, unlike the public ones, as they have to keep parents happy.

That's a good point. But do they really have one bus for 50 students? I would have thought one bus would take more than 50 students in a day by the time they did an elementary, middle school, and high school route and then of course lots of students wouldn't ride the bus.

Also, I guess every school district has one or more speech pathologists. And I'm guessing most districts have one or more nurses?

You should look into the teachers at your local private school history. In my hometown, 75% of the private school faculty are former Public school teachers.

Again, in my MS hometown the superintendent's office has 19 people on staff, plus the staff of each schools administration vs the private school that has a staff of 4. The same size public school in the county has a staff of 20.

In my suburban school district you are right, there are multiple bus runs (elementary, Middle, and HS), but in my Mississippi hometown, the bus got all the kids and then went to every school. Nationally, over 55% of kids ride the bus, in Rural Mississippi, I'd expect that to be much higher as few people live within walking distance of the school.
I thought 50 students per bus in Mississippi was generous, most don't hold that many.

Also add special education teachers, gifted and talented teachers, SRO officers, etc. that are not at most Mississippi private schools.

The point is, that $2,000 to $4,000 per student goes very quickly if you have to provide for everyone and provide a way for all to get to school and home.

 

[mstateglfr]

Per many studies (like the 9 listed here https://buildthefoundation.org/issue/high-quality-early-care-and-education/#marker-5779-4), a big difference is early childhood education. Providing education childcare as early at 18 months pays for itself in 2 ways, it allows more women in the workforce, and it advances the kids a grade level in skills, increases the number of graduates, increases the number of college students and much much more..

Yup yup.
Here, preschool at 4 years old is free. Its a Headstart program that was created to help get kids into a learning environment sooner. It reduces out of pocket childcare, it increases child socialization, and it help set kids up to expect to go to school daily where there are rules, turns, etc.

Early childhood education can only help a group overall.

 

[mstateglfr]

Also, I guess every school district has one or more speech pathologists. And I'm guessing most districts have one or more nurses?

Speaking of this, how do private schools in Mississippi handle IEP and 504 plans?

Are private schools taking all the kids with IEPs and 504 qualifications and properly accommodating them? Or are they refusing admission to those kids? Or perhaps worse- are they accepting the kids and not properly accommodating them?

Kids with IEPs and 504 qualifications cost more than the average. If they are all in the public schools because private schools cant/wont properly accommodate the kids, then that also pushes up the cost for public.
It quickly becomes an apples-oranges situation since 1on1 full time assistance costs a coin or two.

 

[johnson86-1]

You should look into the teachers at your local private school history. In my hometown, 75% of the private school faculty are former Public school teachers.

In my home town, there were zero at anytime I would have known. No clue about other places. Didn't the COLA for PERS become more generous sometime in the late 80's? I wonder if that has encouraged more teachers to leave the public school and go to private rather than continue to add to their pension.

Again, in my MS hometown the superintendent's office has 19 people on staff, plus the staff of each schools administration vs the private school that has a staff of 4. The same size public school in the county has a staff of 20.

If a school is small enough to have a staff of 4 (headmaster, accountant, receptionist, facilities?), then they likely have terrible economies of scale.

In my suburban school district you are right, there are multiple bus runs (elementary, Middle, and HS), but in my Mississippi hometown, the bus got all the kids and then went to every school.

I think this has been a change everywhere. In my hometown, all the schools in district started at the same time and basically each school had its own set of buses, although buses did make two runs, so some students got to school I think around 40 minutes early and some students didn't get to leave until around 40 minutes after school. But from what I can tell, it looks like most places now stagger their school start times so that buses can serve elementary, middle, and high school in succession. Of course, if you're talking about more rural school districts, they are probably going far enough that staggering the times doesn't make sense.

Nationally, over 55% of kids ride the bus, in Rural Mississippi, I'd expect that to be much higher as few people live within walking distance of the school.

I would have guessed this went the opposite way, with rural people more likely to ride the bus because their parents would be more likely to have transportation. But that's a wild assed guess. I guess a lot of people in the county might be going to a different location to work than the town where the school is located.

I thought 50 students per bus in Mississippi was generous, most don't hold that many.

Another wild *** guess on my part, but I was thinking buses would be 1/3 to 1/2 full, and making 3 trips a day, for 60-90 students a day. But really don't know what buses look like in more rural areas. Are they using short buses? Using full buses because they have them for sports and other travel but only getting to 1/5 capacity on one trip serving all the schools?

Also add special education teachers, gifted and talented teachers, SRO officers, etc. that are not at most Mississippi private schools.

The point is, that $2,000 to $4,000 per student goes very quickly if you have to provide for everyone and provide a way for all to get to school and home.

Fair enough.