Baseball Stadium

[randystewart]

I was reading the thread on 247 with the pic of the new brick wall behind home plate and found the next few posts interesting. There seems to be a fair amount of thought that we need a completely new stadium. I'm not plugged in to this planning process at all, but I just can't rationalize any way that we get a completely new stadium for several reasons. 1) where would we play during construction phase? 2) I don't think people realize just how much debt our athletic department is carrying right now. Yea, there were big donations for Seal complex, Tennis, Softball, Mize Pavilion, but none of them are anywhere near completely paid for. Then add in Football expansion, and that debt number has to be concerning to at least some pencil pushers in the AD. 3) I really think you'd run the risk of killing the atmosphere if you did something different with the outfield.

I don't have the pic, but the brick wall behind home looked good. Now if we could just tint the dirt to make it match the baseline turf..

 

[dawgstudent]

When they had those meetings in Jackson and Starkville, it seemed like it was a real shot to start completely new. Don't know where they stand now but it sounded like 50/50 new stadium or renovate.

I don't think they are going to do something different with the outfield. There might be some slight modifications but you lose LFL, you lose a lot of the culture of MSU baseball.

 

[engie]

"To be the Jones's"...

Bottom line is that MSU deserves the best in baseball. We had it for a generation -- we expect it for the next one. There is NO WAY to accomplish that with the current grandstand at Dudy Noble. It's too badly designed angularly -- and is built on an outdated stadium concept. Ole Miss and aTm renovated on outdated concepts -- and longterm it will prove to be a very big mistake IMO.

It's all but a foregone conclusion at this point that we will start over anew. And we will build a palace the likes of which the cumulative aspect has not been seen in college baseball yet.

The difference between all the examples of debt you list and a baseball stadium is that the stadium will GENERATE REVENUE in and of itself. It's an investment in our future that will pay for itself over 15-20 years(or shorter -- depending on how ticket prices and demand go).

I would love to see the actual debt figures for the facilities. Not buying what you are selling on that. Our debt situation is one of the better ones in the SEC IMO. We've been VERY fiscally responsible over the years -- and while we may not have actually had the money for the Seal and Mize Complexes in hand at groundbreaking, we had the full sum owed in pledges from sources that we were confident we would get it on schedule. We didn't bond any money to build any of that stuff. Now -- if we've come up with a payment/investment plan that allows us to draw more interest on our money over time than we are paying -- I can see a longterm payment plan.

Our athletics department CLEARED $8mil in FY2012 after the bills were paid. Cleared $2mil in FY2011. We will bring in CONSERVATIVELY $20million in additional "new" money next year. Possibly up to $35mil additional. The AD operates for all intents and purposes as a nonprofit. That money has to be put to use somewhere. The poor ole MSU of the previous generation is dead and gone -- and it will never be coming back barring something monumental like getting booted from the SEC. We are about to be one of the 25 richest ADs in the country. It's time we start acting like it overall.

 

[57stratdawg]

Just out of curiosity, where can I find debit/balancesheet information for the athletic department? Is that sort of thing published?

I think the softball/tennis/women's complex was next on the 'to be built' lineup ahead of any renovations to DNF.

 

[engie]

Just out of curiosity, where can I find debit/balancesheet information for the athletic department? Is that sort of thing published?

I think the softball/tennis/women's complex was next on the 'to be built' lineup ahead of any renovations to DNF.

Search Equity in Athletics Data... that will give you the basic breakdown on FY2012.

 

[randystewart]

I could be completely wrong on this, but I think I remember from a while back that Baseball doesn't produce near the revenue that most of us would think that it does. For some reason, I'm thinking that it was only slightly in the black.

 

[paindonthurt_]

It can be done.

I'll say it again like I say about everything. Anything can be done.

I personally don't care if we build new or renovate as long as it is done right, and there is no one singular right answer.

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

1) There are several options- we could play some in Jackson, Memphis, the new place in Biloxi, etc. In fact, Bama is playing their home games at the Hoover Met while they renovate their stadium. We could also build the grandstand in two phases (ie, build half of it one offseason, then stop to play the season and finish the rest in the next offseason), so that it wouldn't force us to miss any games in Starkville.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we borrowed any money on the Seal or Mize facilities. We haven't even started the Tennis/Softball facility, but I seriously doubt Stricklin would borrow a bunch of money on something that wouldn't pay for itself.

Borrowing money on things that will generate a lot of revenue isn't a bad thing at all- for example, we borrowed money on the football expansion, but it will generate millions of dollars every year so it's not hard to pay off that debt.

Debt is just part of modern day college athletics- as long as you manage it well and don't borrow on something that can't pay for itself, you'll be fine. And make no mistake, a new baseball stadium would more than pay for itself.

3) I seriously doubt that we'd do away with the LFL. Will there be adjustments? Sure, but it shouldn't "kill the atmosphere"- besides, there are a few safety changes coming out there whether we build a new stadium or not. All this talk of "the administration is trying to get rid of the LFL" is just a big overreaction- it'll change some, but then again, it's changed a lot over the year and is still an awesome place to watch baseball.

Based on the design team they've hired and what Stricklin has been saying about having the "best stadium in college baseball," it's becoming more and more clear that the grandstand is coming down.

 

[uptowndawg]

Assuming we build new; is there any indication on whether we would rebuild on the existing site or a new site? If we rebuild on the existing site then I doubt the construction could be completed in one offseason - would either have to play in it 1/2 complete the following year or play elsewhere for a season. Elsewhere may not be an option. I like the idea of keeping the same field and building new around it, just because of the history at that field; but that may not be possible.

If we go to a new site, do we have any more university owned land near the north part of campus? Looking at google maps, there's a nice tract that sits at the southeast corner of 182 and George Perry. Just not sure who it belongs to. Or maybe building that parking garage in a few years could afford us some space to build on that piece of asphalt between the hump and the sanderson center.

And if we do relocate, I would like to see a monument similar to what they did in Omaha with Rosenblatt.

 

[K Pickles]

Doubt there will be a new stadium

I was reading the thread on 247 with the pic of the new brick wall behind home plate and found the next few posts interesting. There seems to be a fair amount of thought that we need a completely new stadium.

I haven't heard anything regarding people wanting a new stadium, but last week I happened to see (spy?) an architecture presentation that was focused on the stadium. Don't know the details because I wasn't actually party to the presentation but did see some referencing to the outfield areas, both left and right field.

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

I could be completely wrong on this, but I think I remember from a while back that Baseball doesn't produce near the revenue that most of us would think that it does. For some reason, I'm thinking that it was only slightly in the black.

Maybe because the grandstand doesn't allow us to generate much revenue.

We severely lack premium seating options, we severely lack chair back seats (and just throwing more down the lines is a bad decision), the lifetime seating rights don't allow us to get as much money as we can on seats in the grandstand, etc.

Bottom line, there are a lot of financial constraints and limitations on this grandstand/stadium that wouldn't exist in a new one.

 

[57stratdawg]

How would a new stadium generate more revenue than the one we currently have? It's the difference between those two numbers that interest me if we're going to look at this like an 'investment', and I don't think it's nearly as large as you've characterized.

 

[engie]

We own a tract off 182 that has plenty of room for a brand new stadium with road frontage. No indication how we intend to go with the construction yet. Once you come to terms with the fact that you are starting over, there is really almost a totally blank canvas and the options are endless...

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

I haven't heard anything regarding people wanting a new stadium, but last week I happened to see (spy?) an architecture presentation that was focused on the stadium. Don't know the details because I wasn't actually party to the presentation but did see some referencing to the outfield areas, both left and right field.

Seriously? Then you really haven't been paying much attention. Most people that I know are all for a new stadium.

 

[K Pickles]

I suppose the fans I associate with are just more interested in renovation. I work with about 80 % State fans and most of those big baseball fans. Haven't heard any of them say one word about wanting an all new stadium. Updates? of course, there is always a push for updates.

 

[engie]

How would a new stadium generate more revenue than the one we currently have? It's the difference between those two numbers that interest me if we're going to look at this like an 'investment', and I don't think it's nearly as large as you've characterized.

- 8k+ season tickets vs the 5500 we currently cap out at(no one buys them for the bleachers and we've got about 4500 total chairbacks)
- 1k+ seat indoor/outdoor club
- Double the number of skyboxes. The 18 we currently have sold out before construction was completed and we've never seen a cancellation.
- Built modularly(like Alex Box, Baum, and Carolina Stadium) so you can CONSTANTLY expand premium seating right along with demand.
- Lounges -- or whatever replaces them -- will be called premium seating. No longer going to be $200/yr/rig or whatever it is.

Our baseball money is currently somewhere around 30% of our earning potential IMO. In every expansion we've had, one thing that has been conclusively proven, is that we underestimate our fanbase's desire for skyboxes and/or undercharge for that stuff.

I can run through the Alex Box prices for various seating options, income, and ticket sales -- and it will blow your mind. Totally insane money. And most thought they were "tapped out" from a fanbase perspective at the old Box as well. Build it -- they will come.

 

[57stratdawg]

I would be very, very surprised if baseball is even in the black at MSU. Most college athletic departments have one sports - football - that generates profits at all, and it basically subsidizes the rest of the athletic department. There are very few college basketball programs (I bet less than 20%) that generate profits today.

Even if they do, they're going to be dwarfed by college football's profits.

 

[randystewart]

The land on 182 is already allocated to and owned by the Research consortium for expansion of the research park. I would think there is plenty of space in front of the vet school though if you wanted to build new while continuing to play in the Dude. I still don't think baseball makes near as much money as you think though.

 

[engie]

I suppose the fans I associate with are just more interested in renovation. I work with about 80 % State fans and most of those big baseball fans. Haven't heard any of them say one word about wanting an all new stadium. Updates? of course, there is always a push for updates.

They aren't big baseball fans if you haven't heard the rumblings...

"Updates" can't be done in a way that make us one of the best again. That's the bottom line in all of this. I believe -- like many -- that MSU baseball should be the best. As is, we're not even the best in our state. Nor will we be with any form of "updates" to the current concrete grandstand. All we can do with the current grandstand is make ourselves "comparable" to OU Stadium. No one should be making comparisons between our baseball programs and stadiums in the next generation.

We've got the best baseball architecture firm in the country working on this -- and the best professional baseball architect of a generation who happens to be an MSU alum. The primary architects are also MSU alums that fully understand the things I'm spelling out in a better/deeper way than I do. Their only restrictions are allegedly "make it the best college baseball has ever seen". You can NOT do that with the current grandstand in place.

 

[engie]

I would be very, very surprised if baseball is even in the black at MSU. Most college athletic departments have one sports - football - that generates revenue at all, and it basically subsidizes the rest of the athletic department. There are very few college basketball programs that generate money today.

HUH?

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

How would a new stadium generate more revenue than the one we currently have? It's the difference between those two numbers that interest me if we're going to look at this like an 'investment', and I don't think it's nearly as large as you've characterized.

Right now, we only have eight skyboxes, and they have been sold out for every game since they were built. In a new stadium, we could AT LEAST support twice as many boxes. We can't just add more to the current grandstand because of the sightline issue.

Right now, we have absolutely no club level and nowhere put one. In a new stadium, that would be a huge attraction and generate a ton of money that we could never see in the current grandstand.

Right now, we have 4,500 chairbacks that have been sold out pretty much every game that I can remember- we also can't simply extend on what we have because of the sightline issue. In a new stadium, we could sell out at least a couple thousand more.

Right now, the lifetime seating licenses don't allow us to put any donation requirements on seats, which is where UM, LSU, and other place make a lot of their money- this cannot be resolved with renovation.

I think that people seriously underestimate the demand we have right now (and will have in the future) for baseball.

 

[randystewart]

I honestly don't think you could raise the prices on baseball tickets ans then sell 3000 additional season tickets like you mention. Is there a desire for premium seating? Sure, but you'd be foolish to try to compare Starkville to Baton Rouge from a dollars available standpoint.

 

[engie]

The land on 182 is already allocated to and owned by the Research consortium for expansion of the research park. I would think there is plenty of space in front of the vet school though if you wanted to build new while continuing to play in the Dude. I still don't think baseball makes near as much money as you think though.

I'm talking about on the university side of 182. Not the research park side. Is that where you are talking about?

You can "think" all you want about what baseball does and doesn't generate off the top of your head -- I've ran the numbers on here once before. I KNOW what we've got potential to generate there.

 

[engie]

I honestly don't think you could raise the prices on baseball tickets ans then sell 3000 additional season tickets like you mention. Is there a desire for premium seating? Sure, but you'd be foolish to try to compare Starkville to Baton Rouge from a dollars available standpoint.

I'm not comparing "Starkville to Baton Rouge" -- I'm comparing Mississippi State baseball to LSU baseball -- and you've lost your mind if you don't think we can raise comparable money to them. Why are you determined to undersell MSU baseball? The Golden Triangle is growing tremendously as an industrial hub as well. We've got to capitalize on that with foresight. Instead of being reactionary or worse -- not react at all.

There is ALOT of desire out there for additional season tickets in baseball. Especially from recent grads. ALOT of people that aren't on any lists or anything because they are all-but-assured to not get chairbacks currently and f'n despise the bleachers. I know probably 30 people that fall into this category myself.

 

[K Pickles]

Perhaps my understanding of this thread was shortsighted. I am not an architect and don't pretend to know what will be needed for this end all/be all stadium you are talking about. What I am saying is that the fans I talk to at work and the ones I sit with at games don't talk about a ground up or greenfield stadium. They talk about changes around the current field. Changes that maintain the identity of State baseball (i.e. left field lounge) while implementing the newer ideals. Their influence has worn off on me and I was relaying those feelings to the board.

 

[dawgstudent]

The softball complex is independent of DNF. It will be built once the money is there to build it. DNF is not going to be stopped by that complex.

 

[engie]

LSU prices:

Season Tickets
Purple Home Plate	$350	$2,000
Purple Dugout	$350	$1,500
Gold Field Box	$315	$350
Gold Grandstand	$315	$200
Green Grandstand	$280	$100
Outfield Prime Bleachers	$210	$50
Outfield Regular Bleachers	$210	n/a
Home Run Bleachers	$210	$50

Their skyboxes go for $35k per season plus $350 per seat. LSU has 26 of these currently and are adding a few more.
Tiger Terrace and Champions Club price not easily available to see at Alex Box. The sell alcohol in the premium levels as well.

MSU:
Season Ticket Prices

• Season Reserved Chairbacks - $235
• Season General Admission - $200
• MSU Faculty / Staff Chairbacks - $188
• MSU Faculty / Staff General Admission - $160

We currently have 18 suites.

Ole Miss:

Keep in mind, this is JUST donations required for their seats. Not the actual seats themselves.

You don't even have to TOUCH the premium seating issue to see that we are leaving a total crapload of money on the table....

 

[The Peeper]

Larry Templeton appreciation day?

We've been VERY fiscally responsible over the years --

 

[GhostOfJackie]

I was reading the thread on 247 with the pic of the new brick wall behind home plate and found the next few posts interesting. There seems to be a fair amount of thought that we need a completely new stadium. I'm not plugged in to this planning process at all, but I just can't rationalize any way that we get a completely new stadium for several reasons. 1) where would we play during construction phase? 2) I don't think people realize just how much debt our athletic department is carrying right now. Yea, there were big donations for Seal complex, Tennis, Softball, Mize Pavilion, but none of them are anywhere near completely paid for. Then add in Football expansion, and that debt number has to be concerning to at least some pencil pushers in the AD. 3) I really think you'd run the risk of killing the atmosphere if you did something different with the outfield.

I don't have the pic, but the brick wall behind home looked good. Now if we could just tint the dirt to make it match the baseline turf..

I don't know how to get this through some stubborn heads... the answer is to build a brand new stadium apart from the current one. This is the ONLY answer is we want to be "the best" in the only sport that its possible to be the best at Mississippi State. Lots of other SEC schools have done it in the past 10 years. Why can't we do the same? Money is about to start pouring in and a new baseball stadium should be the first athletic facility we invest in.

To me, the biggest problem is where to locate the new stadium. This is too big of an opportunity to pass up.

 

[dawgstudent]

You could build on the current DNF. Have a grandstand ready for one season then come back in and finish up after that. A lot of options.

 

[engie]

Perhaps my understanding of this thread was shortsighted. I am not an architect and don't pretend to know what will be needed for this end all/be all stadium you are talking about. What I am saying is that the fans I talk to at work and the ones I sit with at games don't talk about a ground up or greenfield stadium. They talk about changes around the current field. Changes that maintain the identity of State baseball (i.e. left field lounge) while implementing the newer ideals. Their influence has worn off on me and I was relaying those feelings to the board.

No one is intentionally trying to jump down your throat on this at all. It just seems like we've got to go through this conversation with similar viewpoints every single time the thread comes up and it gets tiresome to explain in the painstaking detail I've gone to in the past. I encourage you to search those threads and give alot of thought to the points that are brought up. Also, search Todd4State's article on Maroon and White Nation -- it goes into great detail with what is the common viewpoint among "us" after going into a fairly deep look at the logistics of the current structure.

Maintaining identity is going to be important in everything we do. LSU didn't lose their identity when they built a new Alex Box though -- and the Cardinals didn't when they built a(nother) new Busch Stadium. What we are facing is similar IMO...

 

[BiscuitEater]

While they were buiding Dudy Noble ...

1) where would we play during construction phase? 2) I don't think people realize just how much debt our athletic department is carrying right now.

The team played home games at Redbird Park in Coumbus during construction. Think it was like in '66. Spent several great afternoons, skipping 6th period to get to those games. Think it was free admission too!

Think they razed the ballpark to build Dornan but that is kinda fuzzy. Don't know 'why' they didn't wait until 'after' the baseball season was over.

 

[aTotal360]

While taking the coaching baseball class at State in the late 90s, we were told by a guest lecturer (someone in the AD) that MSU and LSU are the ONLY 2 teams in the country that were in the black in baseball. I know the financial climate has changed since then, but to your point, college baseball isn't a money making machine. Even if dexecuted perfectly.

Just like in every sport, I'd have to assume that premium seating accounts for the lions share of ticket revenue. I'd be happy if we tacked on some more skyboxes and continued to put lipstick on the pig. Especially if that mean't keeping LFL. I'm just scared that a new stadium would put a damper on the atmosphere. Hell, look no further than the CommercialTron at DWS. Who would have thought an upgrade would diminish from your gameday experience?

 

[57stratdawg]

College Basketball:
I found some data relating to college basketball revenues and expenses. Think it's from 2011, but I doubt much has changed.

Here are the highlights:

343 total basketball schools
66 listed a gross profit of more than $1MM (19% of total schools) (basically what I thought it would be)
If I combine the profits from school #56 through #343 it's essentially $0.

Like I said, if you're not in the top 20% of basketball programs, you're either losing money or basically breaking even.

College Baseball:
I was able to find this - College baseball profits (filter it by D1/Baseball)

A quick glance shows the following SEC schools' baseball profits/loss (in thousands $):

• Alabama -$-1,620
• Auburn - $+13
• Arkansas - $-626
• Florida -$-1,700
• UGA - $-1,650
• LSU - $+2,011 (There's your premium seating engie)
• MSU - $0 (I assume no data)
• OM - $-1,620
• Missouri - $-1,300
• South Car - $-1,670
• Texas A&M - $-340
• Vandy - $+211

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Maybe Dorman should be razed to bring back the ball park...

(I know - not enough room even if Creelman was removed but there is a certain symmetry...)

 

[patdog]

Done right, a new stadium would enhance the atmosphere. The current one is pretty well designed to kill it. 10-foot wall so almost all the fans in the grandstand are higher up than they need to be; permanent seat licenses that ensure the grandstand is no more than half full except for a handful of game each year; large foul area behind home plate, etc.

 

[00Dawg]

No one is intentionally trying to jump down your throat on this at all. It just seems like we've got to go through this conversation with similar viewpoints every single time the thread comes up and it gets tiresome to explain in the painstaking detail I've gone to in the past.

Well, that's because while there may be a majority sharing your opinion among 6Pack baseball fans, it's not nearly that cut and dried in the general fanbase, and current season ticket holders in particular. You need to approach this as a PR campaign where you're still selling the concept.

Me, I'm looking to see how things go with the bump in prices for football coupled with the reseating. The feedback I've gotten from other fans close to my giving level is that the university has gone too high in some sections, and there may be some unexpected shifts. That's the kind of thing that still concerns me about support for baseball premium seating. Recently I was in favor of a small CL for a reworked Dude, but at the moment I'd rather just max out skyboxes and then drop down to grandstand....maybe with boxes at the bottom that have refreshment service.

 

[engie]

Well, that's because while there may be a majority sharing your opinion among 6Pack baseball fans, it's not nearly that cut and dried in the general fanbase, and current season ticket holders in particular. You need to approach this as a PR campaign where you're still selling the concept.

Me, I'm looking to see how things go with the bump in prices for football coupled with the reseating. The feedback I've gotten from other fans close to my giving level is that the university has gone too high in some sections, and there may be some unexpected shifts. That's the kind of thing that still concerns me about support for baseball premium seating. Recently I was in favor of a small CL for a reworked Dude, but at the moment I'd rather just max out skyboxes and then drop down to grandstand....maybe with boxes at the bottom that have refreshment service.

I don't have to "sell" it at all. It's already sold. It's happening. My "job" in my approach and stance was done the day Strick stepped up to the plate and axed the idea he had continually stated until this year of a minor renovation -- in favor of hiring without a doubt the best architectural team in college baseball history to build us the best stadium in college baseball history. I'm getting what I wanted and championed for. The best of the best. Someone with influence got in his ear and made him change his approach to Dudy Noble this year. No longer is he talking small. He's talking huge.

It is prettymuch that "cut and dried" in the general fanbase. Maybe not among the lifetime seat holders that have never sat in the bleachers at Dudy Noble -- or among the group that has not seen a game from another SEC stadium or Trustmark Park/AutoZone in years -- or bothered understanding a thing about stadium design. Overall -- yes, it is that clear. It's that clear in the skyboxes. And it is that clear in the lounges.
As for your last sentence -- it doesn't make sense. We've got one level of skyboxes. 9 on each side. No club lounge. No common area for the skyboxes other than a hallway that doesn't have central heat and air. No sightlines to add more than a couple more down the foul lines(we can extend toward the plate and add a couple). They are not designed structurally to stack a second level. EVERYTHING @ Dudy Noble is kinda reminiscent of the Lounge culture. We didn't plan ahead on a bit of it. We built what we needed/the best we could at the time -- with zero thought to the future. That's why we are where we are right now -- the soon-to-be 6th best stadium in the SEC West. Arkansas initially built Baum 9 years after we finished Dudy Noble. They built modern and PLANNED AHEAD. That's why Baum is -- to this day -- arguably the best stadium in college baseball after 9 or 10 renovations and expansions -- all of which work perfectly together giving the appearance of a stadium built all at once.

"Renovating" the current structure gets us NO BETTER than the 4th best stadium in the west. Don't care if we spend $30mil on the lipstick. Are you ok with that?

 

[TXDawg.sixpack]

You could build on the current DNF. Have a grandstand ready for one season then come back in and finish up after that. A lot of options.

Call me crazy, but if TAMU can essentially rebuild their entire football stadium during one off-season, why can't we do the same with the baseball field? Start the external and "prep" work during the season, and go into full scale 24/7 construction as soon as the post season is done.

 

[dawgstudent]

I think one of the main headaches would be practice - at least as it stands now. A lot of practice is done at DNF during the fall and we have camps and all that as well.

But I am sure it could be done.