Basketball transfers

[DawgatAuburn]

Good read over at SI.com on the rise of transfer recruiting in college basketball. Some of the stats include:

* In the latest official data available from the NCAA, nearly 12 percent of players transferred in 2011-12.

* Of the 1,039 Division I men's basketball freshmen to enroll in 2010, 412 of them have transferred or left their initial school. That's a 40-percent clip. While four-year transfers have increased less than three percent since 2004, the caliber of players readily available has overhauled the traditional recruiting model in college basketball.

* According to data compiled by SI.com's Luke Winn, the number of Top 100 players who transferred rose to 34.3 percent in the 2010 class from 26.5 percent in 2007. The best players need immediate gratification.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...08/george-washington-colonials/#ixzz2puYA9u6S

 

[dawgstudent]

Wow - those are some telling statistics.

 

[57stratdawg]

There is your problem with the sport.

 

[Rog.sixpack]

1 and dones and early entrants don't help the numbers either

Especially for schools like UNLV, Georgia, Maryland, and Colorado who probably didn't expect some of their underclassmen to leave so early. Thus revealing a late available scholarship, that maybe a transfer would fill versus a late recruit.

Good read over at SI.com on the rise of transfer recruiting in college basketball. Some of the stats include:

* In the latest official data available from the NCAA, nearly 12 percent of players transferred in 2011-12.

* Of the 1,039 Division I men's basketball freshmen to enroll in 2010, 412 of them have transferred or left their initial school. That's a 40-percent clip. While four-year transfers have increased less than three percent since 2004, the caliber of players readily available has overhauled the traditional recruiting model in college basketball.

* According to data compiled by SI.com's Luke Winn, the number of Top 100 players who transferred rose to 34.3 percent in the 2010 class from 26.5 percent in 2007. The best players need immediate gratification.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...08/george-washington-colonials/#ixzz2puYA9u6S

 

[DAWG61]

Is Ray against accepting a transfer to play here? Seems like a decent avenue to get game ready talent. If you include next year's already signed players we have had zero transfer into MSU.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

I doubt he's against it, but as the Thamel piece says, it's a recruiting job, and to be frank, Ray hasn't shown much ability in that area yet.

 

[aTotal360]

Ray isn't. Recruits are.

 

[johnson86-1]

Is Ray against accepting a transfer to play here? Seems like a decent avenue to get game ready talent. If you include next year's already signed players we have had zero transfer into MSU.

It looks like you're pretty much going to have to play this game going forward. Even though you're likely to get the type of players with the same issues, once a player has transferred, he more or less has to put up or get out, and the coach has the ability to exert some control again.

 

[Wizard.sixpack]

+1

nm

 

[HD6]

Thanks Stansbury!

 

[Irondawg]

To me the problem isn't that the best players need immediate satisfactino, because they aren't the ones transferring. It's that the medicore players all thing they are the best players and get frustrated with the role so they try somewhere else. That makes up a lot of the transfers. Others are based on maybe not liking coaches, teammates, etc.

Applewhite is our example. He was recruited as a role player. A big body that could guard the 2 or 3 and provide some engergy off the bench and provide limited scoring. Due to many unforseen circumstances the dude ends up starting and still transfers b/c he wants a bigger role.

The reality is that unless there were other reasons the guy was probably ahead of the curve on what kind of contribution he should be having on a mediocre or above team. If he ever ends up with a bigger role on a team no worse than MSU I'll be quite surprised, but he clearly thinks he can do better. Always interesting to see how these work out.

Compared to football where a lot of transfers are either homesick or guys can see writing on the wall like Milton. And most of us are really rooting for Milton b/c we know he has talent but we also understand why the coaches may never trust him with the football.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

Thanks Stansbury!

Not only did he wreck the MSU program to the point only Rick Ray wanted the job, but he also wrecked the entire college game by opening the floodgates for transfers.

And don't forget, all that hand checking his lazy *** players had to resort to led to the new rule changes.

Guy had an impact.

 

[Philly Dawg]

Not to mention global warming. Thanks Stansbury!

 

[KurtRambis4]

BuT IT's noT thaT

stANZ had TRansfers, it's whO they weRe11!!!


Oh wait, this shoots that down too. Fire STainZ!!1

 

[mstateglfr]

I expect Ray to make a real dent in recruiting now that he is only a few months away from his 5th signing class.**

 

[mstateglfr]

Is Ray against accepting a transfer to play here? Seems like a decent avenue to get game ready talent. If you include next year's already signed players we have had zero transfer into MSU.

Go The Mayor's route at Iowa State and DOMINATE with transfers.
Ames is no better or worse a place to be than Starkville, I can attest to that. So location in getting transfers shouldnt be some major issue.

 

[mstateglfr]

stANZ had TRansfers, it's whO they weRe11!!!


Oh wait, this shoots that down too. Fire STainZ!!1

How does this shoot down that argument?
When looking at a program, players who dont see the floor transferring doesnt hurt the level of play. Players who do see the floor transferring does hurt the level of play.
This is true regardless of if 4% of all players transfer, or 40% of all players transfer.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Because

it shows even the top 100 players are transferring, at an increasing rate.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

I expect Ray to make a real dent in recruiting now that he is only a few months away from his 5th signing class.**

He has had four cracks at it. Hopefully the 5th will be the charm.

 

[dawgstudent]

I know this is sarcasm but what is this referencing.

 

[tenureplan]

Oldblue claims Ray has had 4 recruiting classes

nm

 

[DAWG61]

Not the best example after losing last night in OT to Georgia at home but Mizzou seems to have done well with transfers. They've also had a ton transfer out. I think Ray has signed a couple decent players in Houston, Ready and Bloodman. I credit Stans for Sword, Ware, Borchert (rumored his placement at EMCC) and Thomas I blame Stans for. FTF needs to see less minutes than Cunningham right now. I fail to see anything positive he's contributing. Shooting no, ball-handling no, rebounds no, defense maybe. Davis is right there with him. Pollard should get either one of their scholarships next year imo. If y'all are going to push Milton out I'm doing the same with these two. They can earn their scholarship next year as walk-ons. If Ray doesn't become cutthroat with this stuff he'll be out his job in 2 years. Sign Pollard and an excellent 3point shooter with these two scholarships. 2c

 

[DawgatAuburn]

I see what you are saying, but I think having some guys who don't play a lot still have value and raise the level of play of the entire team. I would imagine Rick Ray would agree that we would have been a better team last year with five non-waterboys to practice against. I know last year we needed player depth, not bench depth, but you get the point.

 

[mstateglfr]

In a thread last week or so ob claimed Ray has already had 4 signing classes by counting the early signing period as a class and the spring signing period as a class.

 

[mstateglfr]

it shows even the top 100 players are transferring, at an increasing rate.

Well I guess we can say we are lucky then since we dont have t100 players!
Seriously though, what happens elsewhere is of no consequence.

When MSU players who dont see the floor transfer, there is no drop in talent or production. When MSU players who do see the floor transfer, there is a drop in talent and production.
Its that simple. This was the case before this article came out and its still the case.

Your mocking those who point this out by saying 'stainz' and all doesnt change anything- we are hurt by transfers that have played a lot of minutes.
The argument back when Stans was coaching, at least from me, was that we arent deep enough to absorb losing impact players and in order to be successful, we need veteran impact players. We need a roster like the midmajors that go Cinderella on the brackets- experience and history of playing together.

Notre Dame and USC can lose their entire roster every year for all I care. I want MSU to be able to keep their impact players. I think how coaches manage the relationships is a part of keeping everyone together.

 

[skb124]

Can you name me three programs in the country who have lost as many important players to their teams as us? The Delks, both played a lot here and one transferred to Louisville. Hansbrough, Big East player of the year. Romero Osby, Big 12 all-conference. Phil Turner, GSC west division player of the year at Delta State. Rodney Hood, one of the best players in the nation. Deville Smith, starting PG for UNLV.

Who else has lost this many big time players in a 6 year period? The numbers may say something, but they don't tell who is leaving.

Also, players leaving early for the draft would seem to skew these numbers also.

 

[tcdog70]

Anyone remember ShanePowers, LRob,and Arnett Moultrie? Pretty good transfers

 

[Lettucexxxx]

First time we agree

 

[KurtRambis4]

Of course

Well I guess we can say we are lucky then since we dont have t100 players!
Seriously though, what happens elsewhere is of no consequence.

what happens elseswhere is of no consequence here. Who says it is? I'm just pointing out that people used this as one of their talking points on bashing Stans, alluding that he was the ONLY coach this happened to. Then it was proven that transfers happen everywhere in the modern day college landscape. Then, the argument was changed to "but he loses our top players". This now shows that, yes, even top tier talent has a increasingly higher chance of transferring when compared to the past.

 

[KurtRambis4]

The

Delks were at best, a 6-man (Reggie, specifically). I'll give you losing Hansbrough hurt, but his loss was more so on Starkville and outside circumstances than Stansbury. Phil Turner...guy should have been a 6 (at best) and the fact that he contributed more than that is a positive by the staff, to me. Hood never wanted to be here in the first place. Osby, is really the only one that was a complete cluster 17 by the staff, to me.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

That's some great excuse making. It's nearly all off base, but you get an A for effort.

First of all, 6th men are important, and I assume by 6th man you mean anyone off the bench who gets meaningful minutes and not just one person who might happen to be the first substitute in a number of games.

Reginald Delk was a seldom used reserve his junior year at Uof L playing behind future NBA player Terence Williams, bu was then a starter his senior year. I guess he knew wasn't good enough to play here, so he went to Louisville.

Richard Delk was a starter for two years at Troy. He did get about 10 minutes a game more playing time at Troy and was depended on as a scorer. At State he would have stayed in the 20 minute range and been asked to be a defender.

Hansbrough's leaving has never really been clear. The practice facility and his mom are convenient rumors, but are you kidding me that it's more on outside circumstances than the coach? Coaches have to help players through those times. They have to know the players. If they have to re-recruit their best players after every season, then so be it. Letting Ben get to the point of transferring is on the coaching staff.

Phil Turner.....it's mind-boggling to me that you could find a way to tear down one of the few bright spots of the last few seasons of Buryball. Phil played hard, played out of position, played well, and was thanked for that by getting his walking papers via a letter, so that shows you how much Stansbury valued his contributions. I would say that everything Phil accomplished was done of his own merit, and IN SPITE of the staff.

Hood didn't want to be here? Then why did he sign with us? He could have gone anywhere in the country out of high school.

"We didn't want Rodney to limit himself to the state or the SEC but the fact that he grew up in this state and the state knows who he is brings something different," Ricky Hood, Rodney's father, told ESPN.com.

Allegiance played a significant role in Hood's decision. His parents, immediate family and friends have always supported and attended his games. There was a loyalty to them in addition to the pull his father said he felt from being the state's top player.


"He said why not Mississippi State?" Ricky Hood said. "The best players in Alabama go to Alabama. The best players in Louisiana go to LSU. Why shouldn't the best player in Mississippi consider Mississippi State?"


At least you are right about Osby. With Hood and Osby's experiences, we may never get another player from Meridian again.

 

[BiscuitEater]

Know you are talking .. players over a long period of time ...

Can you name me three programs in the country who have lost as many important players to their teams as us?

But take a look at Vandy THIS year. They lost last year's leading scorer and now they have lost this year's leading scorer to academics.

Vanderbilt will be without leading scorer Eric McClellan the rest of the season after the point guard was suspended for the spring semester for violating academic policy.

Coach Kevin Stallings now has just seven scholarship players left. He lost four players during the offseason with last season's leading scorer Kedren Johnson suspended from the university for a year. Stallings also lost center Josh Henderson after eight games to a knee injury.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Ok.

First of all, 6th men are important, and I assume by 6th man you mean anyone off the bench who gets meaningful minutes and not just one person who might happen to be the first substitute in a number of games.

Yeah, I'm not real sure where I said they weren't important in my posts

Reginald Delk was a seldom used reserve his junior year at Uof L playing behind future NBA player Terence Williams, bu was then a starter his senior year. I guess he knew wasn't good enough to play here, so he went to Louisville.

Reggie was the #4 guard his SR year in MPG

Hansbrough's leaving has never really been clear. The practice facility and his mom are convenient rumors, but are you kidding me that it's more on outside circumstances than the coach? Coaches have to help players through those times. They have to know the players. If they have to re-recruit their best players after every season, then so be it. Letting Ben get to the point of transferring is on the coaching staff.

I think you missed the part where I said it hurt losing him

Phil Turner.....it's mind-boggling to me that you could find a way to tear down one of the few bright spots of the last few seasons of Buryball. Phil played hard, played out of position, played well, and was thanked for that by getting his walking papers via a letter, so that shows you how much Stansbury valued his contributions. I would say that everything Phil accomplished was done of his own merit, and IN SPITE of the staff.

You'll have to excuse me if I'm not all that upset with losing someone with career numbers such as his, and saying that he was one of the few bright spots on those teams is more on how those teams lacked talent. The kid was playing freaking down in the paint.

Hood didn't want to be here? Then why did he sign with us? He could have gone anywhere in the country out of high school.

I have no idea why he did, but I do know that before he even announced (way before) he was transferring it had been rumored that he was. The quotes you provided all lead one to believe his dad had a great deal of influence on why he came to State.

All in all, most of these kids (minus Hood/Osby/Hansbrough, which I stated hurt losing) were role players at best. Excuse me if my opinion on losing role players (especially in today's atmosphere) isn't one of "let's jump ship and fire the coach1!1".

 

[DAWG61]

Momma Hansbrough made it impossible for Ben to stay. That one isn't on Stansbury. Pushing Turner and Osby out is though. Stansbury just let things get out of control and he was never the disciplinarian to steer them back. It really started spiraling down for him when he let Jamont Gordon do whatever the 17 he wanted on the court and off. The team lost what little respect they had for him and then he brings in the total joke Sidney while he's kicking off other players left and right that were nowhere close to the cancer Sidney was. At that point the entire program has to be blown up and started completely over again. It's actually a small miracle we are this improved already. If Ray ever learns how to recruit and develop shooting/scoring we could be pretty decent. Ray has to play the "game" somewhat though. Basketball is too filthy everywhere for Ray to be attempting to play the holy program of hard work and commitment to 4-5 years with each player.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

Yeah, I'm not real sure where I said they weren't important in my posts

Where you said that the Delks were at best 6th men, but losing Hansbrough hurt. The implied statement there is that losing the Delks didn't hurt, or that they weren't important. If that's not what you meant, learn to write more clearly.

Reggie was the #4 guard his SR year in MPG

There's a cherry picking stat if ever I heard one trying to diminish his role, plus it's wrong to boot. Reggie started 26 of the 32 games his senior year. He played 21.3 mpg. That was sixth on the team in MPG. Samuels and Swopshire were their bigs, and played more MPG. Sosa and Smith played more MPG than Reggie. Reggis was 5th overall. Then Knowles at 20. The next guy played 13 MPG. Reggie Delk - who you have implied didn't hurt to lose and wasn't important - was good enough to start and play serious minutes at Louisville. If you wanted to make the argument that we were guard heavy with the Delks, Hansbrough and Randy Stewart, you might be right.

You'll have to excuse me if I'm not all that upset with losing someone with career numbers such as his, and saying that he was one of the few bright spots on those teams is more on how those teams lacked talent. The kid was playing freaking down in the paint.

Do numbers always reflect a player's value to the team? Aaron Craft is the 4th leading scorer for Ohio State, shoots 25% from three, and gets five assist per game, good for about 60th in the country, but he's being pushed as first team All American. No, I am not saying Phil was Aaron Craft. I am saying that numbers don't always reflect a player's value to the team. As for the teams lacking talent, my question would be compared to what? The 2009 and 2010 teams had the NCAA's all time shot block leader, a future all Big 12 post man, and a collection of players that everyone on this board agreed were talented in Dee, Ravern, Kodi, and Randy. All those guys were more talented than Phil. Not all of them worked harder than him. If there was a talent deficiency, whose responsibility was that?

I have no idea why he did, but I do know that before he even announced (way before) he was transferring it had been rumored that he was. The quotes you provided all lead one to believe his dad had a great deal of influence on why he came to State.

So rumors>>>>quotes? When players transfer, people love to act like they had known it was coming for a long time. Most of the time, that's complete crap. In this case, anyone with a brain had to know he was thinking about it when he saw what was happening on the court. As soon as we went into our mid-February tailspin, almost that entire team quit. I don't remember who we were playing, but I remember Rodney picked up a technical foul. To me, when a seemingly even-tempered player like that gets to the point of getting a T, I started thinking about it as a possibility. I don't know if that counts as the oh so specific "way before" timeline when you were hearing all these rumors. As for his dad, I don't see anything wrong with the parents having a part in that decision. Most 18 year olds need that help. Many of them don't have a dad to help them. Not everyone is Cecil Newton or Renardo Sidney, Sr when it comes to parenting an athlete.

All in all, most of these kids (minus Hood/Osby/Hansbrough, which I stated hurt losing) were role players at best. Excuse me if my opinion on losing role players (especially in today's atmosphere) isn't one of "let's jump ship and fire the coach1!1".

I'm trying to understand your definition of role players. So far I have these facts to work from in defining a role player: a) good enough to start at Louisville; b) good enough to start at Mississippi State or play starter type minutes until the coach deems you expendable; and/or c) not leading the team in statistical categories no matter what intangibles you bring to the floor.

And naturally, you bring it all back to your boy and his unceremonious <strike>firing</strike> retirement.

 

[mstateglfr]

Thanks for doing what I was too lazy to do- lay out step by step responses.
And you nailed each point.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Wait

a minute, you cannot comprehend the statement so it's my fault because I didn't dumb it down?

My mistake on Reggie. He was 3rd among guards in mpg (just over 1 mpg from 4th). What am I cherry picking? I'd say mpg is a pretty telling stat.

We'll just agree to disagree. You're of the opinion that losing the Delks and Phil Turner was catastrophic for the program, whereas I'm not. Fair enough.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

We'll just agree to disagree. You're of the opinion that losing the Delks and Phil Turner was catastrophic for the program, whereas I'm not. Fair enough.

The original post called them important players. You said they were no big loss. I disagreed. No one said it was catastrophic, but that's a good deflection tactic to take the attention off the facts.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Agree to disagree

Hell, we went from 8-8 in the league the last year the Delks were here to 12-4.