Because Rochester has Made 4A Relevant ...

[LakeCtyNewt]

So when ESL was dipping off title after title in the 80s and 90s it wasn't all that impressive because they weren't beating mt Carmel Loyola Rita and PC every year

What qualifications does a program have to have to be called a state champion?

Is this kinda like the process of a catch in the NFL?

 

[Bwm57]

Bwm

I'm not sure I agree with the bus being easier. "renting" or actually moving in district and getting an address within minutes of a school seems a easier sell to students than taking an hour bus ride at 6 am to get to MC as an example. And clearly parents are willing to move districts these days to get their kid in the "right" program. Stories of these moves into public district have been in papers and some public programs activities are common knowledge.

I agree it's done, it's a big deal in wrestling with some of the nationally ranked public schools. All I'm saying is I don't believe the volume is remotely close to the number of kids, legally, going to privates.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

That comes down to finances.

That has more to do with it than lots of things.. demographics, crappy Springfield schools etc..

 

[RJ130]

I just honestly do not understand how a school like a Montini has an enrollment of a 4A school but gets multipled to be a 5A school, gets "success factored up to be a 6A school and then because of their success may be placed as a 7A school next year. What? Lol If public and private schools all have the ability to attract any player (as my previous posts states) how can the IHSA not see clearly about all of this.

 

[MS4EVER]

I just honestly do not understand how a school like a Montini has an enrollment of a 4A school but gets multipled to be a 5A school, gets "success factored up to be a 6A school and then because of their success may be placed as a 7A school next year. What? Lol .

I agree. It is ridiculous!

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

PJJP

Finally someone making sense of this. The difference is if I have a kid that lives in Gurnee he will go to Warren. If he wants to go to Carmel he could do that.

If he wanted to go to Stevenson e would have to move within their district.

That's the whole point to this. Districts bind public schools as to who can attend and who can't. Private schools are not bound by the same rules.

The play up thing yo me stinks. If you win based on your enrollment then you should stay there. Because year in and year out you r school may not win every year. They may have a two or three year run but then may stink after hat. Shouldn't they move back down? You would think but nope doesn't work that way - at lest it hasn't. Yet.

 

[CCHS-Fan]

Newt, why couldn't you pay to send him to Stevenson? It can be done.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

Newt, why couldn't you pay to send him to Stevenson? It can be done.

Didn't. Know that was possible.

 

[godfthr53]

Didn't. Know that was possible.

Apartments are cheaper than most tuition.

 

[Gannicus]

So when ESL was dipping off title after title in the 80s and 90s it wasn't all that impressive because they weren't beating mt Carmel Loyola Rita and PC every year

What qualifications does a program have to have to be called a state champion?

Is this kinda like the process of a catch in the NFL?

What is so hard to understand? The multiplier didn't exist back then when ESL won their titles. I'm sure if PC and Mt. Carmel were bumped up to 6A back then, and Richards won a bunch of titles it would be the same thing. The IHSA took the best teams in 4A and bumped them up. This eliminated Rochester's best competition . So their titles were won with the 4A parochial powerhouses removed from the class they are supposed to be in. You are telling me that they'd win five straight having to face JCA, Montini, and SHG each year? They would be very fortunate to win a single title. They are not a legitimate true championship team.

 

[mc140]

Apartments are cheaper than most tuition.

Changing you drivers license or declaring homelessness is even easier.

 

[RJ130]

Newt, that's my honest question. How does the district really bind the publics? If a person reaches out to a public school and says "hey, my family is moving to the area and my qb son wants to play with your football team", does the public school have any restrictions? (Besides sitting out a year) Where is the restriction? What does a boundary even mean at that point. To me, I see no difference whatsoever between the boundary and non boundaried schools.

 

[USD24]

I just don't get it. What's wrong with Roxhesters success? Should we start braking down every program that has won a title and why they should or shouldn't have?

I've got GBN beating East St Louis in 1974 - discuss

I agree...but then what is wrong with SHG and Montini's success? Why are they forced to move up if they are successful? If the multiplier was designed to level the playing field, the success factor should apply to no one or everyone. Why isn't it ok for some programs just to be better than other programs, public or private!?

 

[HHSTigerFan]

I agree...but then what is wrong with SHG and Montini's success? Why are they forced to move up if they are successful? If the multiplier was designed to level the playing field, the success factor should apply to no one or everyone. Why isn't it ok for some programs just to be better than other programs, public or private!?

Because guys like ramblin cried that all open enrollment schools shouldn't be treated the same..

 

[USD24]

Newt, why couldn't you pay to send him to Stevenson? It can be done.

I think you can, but I don't think they are eligible to participate in athletics if you do that.

 

[CCHS-Fan]

'I think you can, but I don't think they are eligible to participate in athletics if you do that.'

Under certain circumstances they would be eligible.

 

[pjjp]

I agree...but then what is wrong with SHG and Montini's success? Why are they forced to move up if they are successful? If the multiplier was designed to level the playing field, the success factor should apply to no one or everyone. Why isn't it ok for some programs just to be better than other programs, public or private!?

I asked the same questions previously. Based on the success factor policy's selective application (only applies to non-boundaried) versus the actual data (no private school has had the same level of sustained success as Rochester), it would appear the IHSA is saying it's okay for a public to dominate a class. However, it's not okay for a non-boundaried school.Therefore, we will enact a policy (in addition to the multiplier), which only applies to non-boundaried schools. Of course, this plays well with the public school majority in the IHSA.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

The other option was a bigger multiplier across the board...

 

[RJ130]

Gotta love that through it all, Bronco just continues to roll along and take on anybody in their path. 8a - 7a- doesn't matter.

 

[Gannicus]

Gotta love that through it all, Bronco just continues to roll along and take on anybody in their path. 8a - 7a- doesn't matter.

Montini will be 7A next season. We will finally see if they have what it takes to win the larger classes. I think they will do great.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Be nice for them to go 8A and see if they can win a title that actually matters...

 

[RJ130]

Lol not taking the bait, but the "if you ain't first, you're last " mentality sounds like it suites you well, Ricky Bobby

 

[LHSTigers94]

What's wrong with Montini's and SHG's success? They are already multiplied. Why must they also be success factored up? If you say it's because they've enjoyed an extraordinary amount of success, why isn't Rochester success factored up as well? Neither Montini nor SHG has enjoyed the same degree of success as Rochester.

Montini has the same success story as Rochester. The only difference is when they play SHG.

 

[LHSTigers94]

I just honestly do not understand how a school like a Montini has an enrollment of a 4A school but gets multipled to be a 5A school, gets "success factored up to be a 6A school and then because of their success may be placed as a 7A school next year. What? Lol If public and private schools all have the ability to attract any player (as my previous posts states) how can the IHSA not see clearly about all of this.

Forget classes for a moment. Is Montini as a team more comparable to LWE, MS, ESL, Batavia or Normal West, Peoria, Sycamore, Washington, etc? The reality is Rochester should be part of the success factor as well. They should have to face JCA or Naz

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Montini has the same success story as Rochester. The only difference is when they play SHG.

Rochester has WON the last five 4A state titles and the success factor does not apply to them. Montini, has been the 5A RUNNER UP the last two years and has the success factor applied to them so that they are in 6A this year. The stories, in terms of current success, are not the same. Rochester has a current streak of titles and Montini does not.

 

[Gannicus]

Be nice for them to go 8A and see if they can win a title that actually matters...

yeah....because 7A is so weak with glenbard west, Maine south, libertyville, cary grove, mt. Carmel, lincoln way east, providence, wheaton south, st. Rita, and glenbard north.

 

[Bwm57]

Newt, that's my honest question. How does the district really bind the publics? If a person reaches out to a public school and says "hey, my family is moving to the area and my qb son wants to play with your football team", does the public school have any restrictions? (Besides sitting out a year) Where is the restriction? What does a boundary even mean at that point. To me, I see no difference whatsoever between the boundary and non boundaried schools.

The difference is most of the publics actually have a fairly rigorous residency requirement process. You don't just show up and say "hey, I want to go to school here". You normally have to provide ID, plus other items such as utility bills that show you live in the district. You don't need to sit out a year if you moved from one district to another.
Plus, the other side of it is you have the parents of the kid who might have just lost their spot who will turn you in or just the parents who don't like you going to school there if you aren't paying the taxes who will do the same.

 

[SOUTHSIDECFD]

S


One of the dumbest posts ever...

Did you check his other two?

If you like to checkout older posts then look at the first 5000 for HHSTigerFan.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Rochester has WON the last five 4A state titles and the success factor does not apply to them. Montini, has been the 5A RUNNER UP the last two years and has the success factor applied to them so that they are in 6A this year. The stories, in terms of current success, are not the same. Rochester has a current streak of titles and Montini does not.

They both lost to SHG. One during the regular season (Rochester) and one in the Championship Montini. If either played or didn't play SHG in the Championship they win. Clearly playing SHG is the reason for the lack of similar success.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Rochester has WON the last five 4A state titles and the success factor does not apply to them. Montini, has been the 5A RUNNER UP the last two years and has the success factor applied to them so that they are in 6A this year. The stories, in terms of current success, are not the same. Rochester has a current streak of titles and Montini does not.

You were the one that said the IHSA shouldn't treat all private schools the same.. now you don't like it???

 

[Hinterland]

A very interesting discussion here. Some thoughts I have on the whole matter:

(1) The institution of the "success factor" is a case of moving the goal posts as it applies to the nonboundaried schools, since the application of the multiplier was the supposed remedy to the advantage these schools had over the boundaried schools. However it is viewed (as a punishment or as further "justice"), the fact remains that the rule is in place and for the time being it is what it is. I think what upsets some people is the very name "success" factor. I agree that if that is what is truly meant, then it should apply to ALL schools. It does not however, and the nonboundaried schools wiill have to deal with it. The vast majority of the IHSA membership is made up of the public school domain and they obviously decide what is going to be implemented when it comes time to vote on the various proposals presented to them by the committees. At the present time the majority do not seem to be bothered by a public school's success to the same degree they were regarding the nonboundaried schools. Does this smack of bias and/or hypocrisy? Sure, but again, it is a matter of what the majority of the membership wants and can live with.

(2) Rochester's success should be studied (and I mean in depth) as a means to determine just what a program needs to do to improve itself, maybe not to the degree of winning i/8 of a state championship for a number of years in a row, but certainly as a way to improve. I would venture to say that moving Derek Leonard and his staff to ANY down program would move them up in quality substantially.

(3) Illinois does NOT crown A state football champion from year to year. Only way to do that would be to have a tournament as in the prior state basketball championships, for example. Sure, the bigger schools would be winning the majority of them, but that would be the nature of things.

Finally, I see where the IHSA has published an amended proposal (2015-16 - Proposal No. 11) to the state football playoffs by-laws whereby there would be 48 teams per each of the 8 classes instead of the current 32, with the top 16 teams in each class receiving a 1st round bye and hosting the 2nd round game. The regular season would be limited to an 8 game schedule. The full text and other specifics of this and other proposals can be found on the IHSA site. ANY THOUGHTS, OPINIONS?

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Even if we are all on the same playing field some schools will always have an advantage. I will also add that MOST parents can't rent their house and rent an apartment for 3 years. I agree that people transfer all the time but it is not the same. Heck there are some privates that have the same rules but can't attract similar talents as others.

LHST - also consider that the 30 mile radius does not treat all schools equally - though they are all multiplied by the same number. Do you think SHG has the same number of kids in its 30 mile radius as does Loyola? Nope, but the IHSA treats them as they do.

the more rules, the more problems. as you point out, certain schools will always have advantages. go back to 6 classes and life is belle.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

I would rather be multiplied by ten then be subjected to the success factor. here's why:

1. Last year's success has nothing to do with this year's team.

2. Using the proverbial bronco as an example, when do you know when you have "success factored" them into the right class? According to the success factor, Bronco either has to compete as a 4a school in 8a; or it can never win a title simply because it is the best team in the class - because after all, you are moving them up because by winning the title, they demonstrated they should not have been in that class...

-bronco wins a title: they were too good for that class;
-bronco loses in the higher class: see can't compete in the higher class.

-ergo: bronco can never win a title in any given class (except 8a) simply because they were the best team in that class. We won't be happy with where bronco is unless bronco is not winning a title. Just think about that.


PS. Do we all really think the ihsa is done with just 8a classes? No way. It's coming guys, ten classes and we all make the playoffs. Too much money for it not to happen - especially with Indiana so close.

 

[Excalibur1188]

It is a good thing that JCA, Montini, or SHG are not in 4A because not many on this board would really care about them anymore.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

If "what the bus drops off" means "whatever area parents decide to "move to" where a powerhouse football program just happens to be present" then yes, what the bus drops off. C'mon. Look at any big powerhouse program and yes, that includes public schools, and you will find transfers. So I stand by my previous comment that in today's day and age, there is no such thing as a boundaried school anymore.

Did you ever come up with a list of transfers on the 5 Rochester teams?

 

[RJ130]

Never said there was a list, nor did I imply I would be scouring around for one. What I DID say was that power house schools get transfers. Families that "move" into your area fall under that category. Too early in the morning to rehash a wornout topic

 

[Sportsmom901]

Assign those schools a district boundary comparable to other 4A schools and then they can go back to 4A...

The IHSA multipler and success factor rule has nothing to do with a school being non-boundaried but it is only directed at private schools. I say this because there are many non-boundaried schools that are not affected by those rules. A few examples would be Phillips who competed in the 4A state championship and another would be Solorio that Naz is playing. I can go on and name every charter and contract school in the city of Chicago and if I recall Phillips, which is a AUSL contract school in the city of Chicago had it's own feeder program which consisted of twelve middle schools which feed athletes directly to the school from all around the city. Clearly no boundaries there. That youth football league has since folded but no doubt it has built Phillips to the powerhouse that they are at 4A today. But no one cries success factor or multiplier when it comes to them. Solorio who just upset CPS #1 seed in 5A to now play Naz in round 2 in the state playoffs; once again no one cries foul to them. That tells me that this is only directed at private schools. To attack the winning tradition that private schools have earned within the IHSA playoffs. The truth about it no matter where the kids come from each team will put 11 kids on the field to face 11 kids from the other sideline. Is the kid from a private school more committed to his program? Does he work harder in the off-season? Does he buy in deeper into his coaches philosophy? Is what public schools coaches think of private schools kids? If so, then you should be fired, cause if the kids are the talent, the coaches one job is to motivate and develop that talent. And if a coach can't do this because that kid lives closer to the school building then shame on him and they don't deserve a championship. If you believe there is no difference, they why the hell are kids in private schools being penalized for their hard work and commitment within the mask of a multiplier and success factor. But what I do find ironic, is that these coaches when it comes to voting on who they compete against they feel private schools have an advantage with their athletes, so competing against them would not be fair. But these same coaches, I see time and time again on this board and when it's time to vote for All State, All Area players of the year and things like that, proclaim that their players are the best athletes.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

They both lost to SHG. One during the regular season (Rochester) and one in the Championship Montini. If either played or didn't play SHG in the Championship they win. Clearly playing SHG is the reason for the lack of similar success.

What a crock of crap.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

The IHSA multipler and success factor rule has nothing to do with a school being non-boundaried but it is only directed at private schools. I say this because there are many non-boundaried schools that are not affected by those rules. A few examples would be Phillips who competed in the 4A state championship and another would be Solorio that Naz is playing. I can go on and name every charter and contract school in the city of Chicago and if I recall Phillips, which is a AUSL contract school in the city of Chicago had it's own feeder program which consisted of twelve middle schools which feed athletes directly to the school from all around the city. Clearly no boundaries there. That youth football league has since folded but no doubt it has built Phillips to the powerhouse that they are at 4A today. But no one cries success factor or multiplier when it comes to them. Solorio who just upset CPS #1 seed in 5A to now play Naz in round 2 in the state playoffs; once again no one cries foul to them. That tells me that this is only directed at private schools. To attack the winning tradition that private schools have earned within the IHSA playoffs. The truth about it no matter where the kids come from each team will put 11 kids on the field to face 11 kids from the other sideline. Is the kid from a private school more committed to his program? Does he work harder in the off-season? Does he buy in deeper into his coaches philosophy? Is what public schools coaches think of private schools kids? If so, then you should be fired, cause if the kids are the talent, the coaches one job is to motivate and develop that talent. And if a coach can't do this because that kid lives closer to the school building then shame on him and they don't deserve a championship. If you believe there is no difference, they why the hell are kids in private schools being penalized for their hard work and commitment within the mask of a multiplier and success factor. But what I do find ironic, is that these coaches when it comes to voting on who they compete against they feel private schools have an advantage with their athletes, so competing against them would not be fair. But these same coaches, I see time and time again on this board and when it's time to vote for All State, All Area players of the year and things like that, proclaim that their players are the best athletes.

There are starting to be a lot of people complaining about Phillips as more and more see whats actually going on..

 

[LHSTigers94]

What a crock of crap.

Responded exactly how I thought you would. Facts are Facts. Montini won 4 in a row before they faced SHG. I am very confident that SHG was the only team in 5A that would beat them both years. JCA was the only other team that could challenge them.