Beginning of Universal Basic Income?

[joeyrupption]

What is the difference between what we have now:

Me, a taxpayer who’s already paying for the 47% of (mostly) loafers out there

—-OR—-

UBI, where I’m still paying for the loafers out there, plus I’m sending more of my money to the government, so they can take a bigger cut and send less back to me.

Can somebody break this down?

 

[KopiKat]

Universal healthcare has a better shot since 22 million people lost their jobs recently.

Welp . . . looks like hard times have flushed a chump! Ulysses Everett McGill

 

[billue]

stopped reading so if this has been said sorry. do people not understand that what ever the amount is THAT WILL BE THE NEW MINIMAL WAGE because all prices will go up to reflect the money allotment.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

What is the difference between what we have now:

Me, a taxpayer who’s already paying for the 47% of (mostly) loafers out there

—-OR—-

UBI, where I’m still paying for the loafers out there, plus I’m sending more of my money to the government, so they can take a bigger cut and send less back to me.

Can somebody break this down?

I'll break down the "47% who don't pay income taxes." Source: Forbes

61% of them are people who work, and pay payroll taxes, but who earn little enough that their income tax liability after deductions and credits is zero.

22% are over age 65 - retired people.

Only 17% are working age and not earning reportable incomes. And that includes students, disabled people, and then just unemployed people.

Only a small percentage of the 47% could be said to be "loafers," unless you just think most working poor are "loafers"

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

I'll break down the "47% who don't pay income taxes." Source: Forbes

61% of them are people who work, and pay payroll taxes, but who earn little enough that their income tax liability after deductions and credits is zero.

22% are over age 65 - retired people.

Only 17% are working age and not earning reportable incomes. And that includes students, disabled people, and then just unemployed people.

Only a small percentage of the 47% could be said to be "loafers," unless you just think most working poor are "loafers"

Amazon didn't pay any taxes. How about we go after companies that are worth billions and skirting their tax obligations instead of low wage people?

Just imagine what could be done if Amazon managed to pay just 1% in taxes on their 87.4 billion dollars in revenue just from the fourth quarter on 2019? That would be 874 million dollars. If they had paid 1% tax in their year earnings, probably pays for the whole damn stimulus package that passed.

And that’s just their federal tax. But alas they legislated and litigated their way out of paying anything.

 

[joeyrupption]

I'll break down the "47% who don't pay income taxes." Source: Forbes

61% of them are people who work, and pay payroll taxes, but who earn little enough that their income tax liability after deductions and credits is zero.

22% are over age 65 - retired people.

Only 17% are working age and not earning reportable incomes. And that includes students, disabled people, and then just unemployed people.

Only a small percentage of the 47% could be said to be "loafers," unless you just think most working poor are "loafers"

If I’m paying for stuff that they’re also using and not paying for, yes, I consider them to be loafers.

 

[TortElvisII]

If I’m paying for stuff that they’re also using and not paying for, yes, I consider them to be loafers.

Google Milton Friedman Minimum Income or Negative Income Tax.

And we're dreaming if we think that it'll be as he says. It might work better than welfare though. I doubt it will be much difference when the politicians get through with it.

 

[joeyrupption]

Google Milton Friedman Minimum Income or Negative Income Tax.

And we're dreaming if we think that it'll be as he says. It might work better than welfare though. I doubt it will be much difference when the politicians get through with it.

Yeah, I know what the ideal is, but I don’t believe it will ever happen.

At the end of the day, they’d be taking my tax money to give it back to me and it would go through even more bureaucracy - there’s no way they would make things simpler - (and lose more money) before it came back to me - like I said before.

 

[warrior-cat]

I'll break down the "47% who don't pay income taxes." Source: Forbes

61% of them are people who work, and pay payroll taxes, but who earn little enough that their income tax liability after deductions and credits is zero.

22% are over age 65 - retired people.

Only 17% are working age and not earning reportable incomes. And that includes students, disabled people, and then just unemployed people.

Only a small percentage of the 47% could be said to be "loafers," unless you just think most working poor are "loafers"

What type of income for retirees is not federally taxed? SS is taxed, many 401K's are taxed. Many annuities are taxed. I am not sure that article is completely correct or what he was referencing.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

Yet politicians will still give themselves increasing lifetime pay.

 

[Catsfan29]

What type of income for retirees is not federally taxed? SS is taxed, many 401K's are taxed. Many annuities are taxed. I am not sure that article is completely correct or what he was referencing.

Roth IRAs are an example of a tax-free vehicle with yearly contributions of $6,000/year for an individual. For someone entering the workforce and looking to save for retirement, these make for a good starting point. Even for older folk, a Roth is a good choice.

As an example, If I wanted to retire in 30 years, I could save close to $600k in just my Roth, assuming 7% returns. With that being said, most use 7-9% as their rate per year, depending on their investment strategy. Pretty sure the next few decades won't be that high though.

I will say that Alaska has something similar to UBI, but the money is tied to oil. Though what ya'll are discussing is way more than what is currently going on up north, maybe by a factor of 12.

Increasing taxes on the highest earners might be one of the ways it can work**

**For those using several European nations and their tax rate of say 50%, that is the highest tax bracket and doesn't necessarily mean everyone is taxed at the level. Furthermore, if you happen to be paying 50% taxes, it does not, by any means, mean your entire income is being taxed at 50%. There are things called tax brackets. The wealthy individuals being taxed at a higher rate than regular folk like us will still be able to live lives we could ever hope to live.

A very basic example is below.

Let's assume there are two brackets, anyone above 50k/year is taxed at 50% while those below are taxed at 10%. Most would think the person making 60k/year would pay 30k in taxes and be worse off than someone making 45k. This is not the case. The person making 60k would pay 50% taxes on 10k or 60-50 equating to $5,000. They would also pay an additional 5k in taxes or 50,000*.10, for a total of $10k paid in taxes. Essentially even with their high taxes, they would still be paying less than 20% of their income in taxes.**

**This is a very rudimentary example as taxes are infinitely more complicated than the example above. The numbers used were just for ease of computation. It's those paying the highest taxes currently would just have to pay more if taxes are raised.

 

[Catsfan29]

Also, with automation, UBI is going to have to be implemented sooner rather than later. If people did get 2k/month, they could continue working, or they can try to figure out what exactly they want to do with their life. I've seen people say 2k is not that much money, but when you are talking about 2k per person, it could go a long way.

I reside in the northside of Chicago around a block from the lake and budget about 2k/mo; 1.4k for needs and around 600 for travel, hobbies, entertainment, etc.

2k/mo would go far in most places in the United States, and honestly, 1200/mo would be a life-changer for most Americans.

 

[KopiKat]

stopped reading so if this has been said sorry. do people not understand that what ever the amount is THAT WILL BE THE NEW MINIMAL WAGE because all prices will go up to reflect the money allotment.

"The Money Allotment" . . . well done, sir . . . one day in the not too distant future, when the citizenship and all it's downtrodden occupants, the rich and the poor, the old and the young, the legal and not legal, the colored and the uncolored, the smart and the REAL smart and the plain fk'n, god-awful dumb . . . when all this contaminated mass is solicited for input in preparation for the Great National Renaming . . . you, just you, send that in.

 

[KopiKat]

Also, with automation, UBI is going to have to be implemented sooner rather than later. If people did get 2k/month, they could continue working, or they can try to figure out what exactly they want to do with their life. I've seen people say 2k is not that much money, but when you are talking about 2k per person, it could go a long way.

I reside in the northside of Chicago around a block from the lake and budget about 2k/mo; 1.4k for needs and around 600 for travel, hobbies, entertainment, etc.

2k/mo would go far in most places in the United States, and honestly, 1200/mo would be a life-changer for most Americans.

There it is, folks. How the buy-in to the sell-out is just that simple. Literally, it is more difficult to put a carrot on the end of a stick and make a donkey move.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

2k/mo would go far in most places in the United States, and honestly, 1200/mo would be a life-changer for most Americans.

Where?

you are dishonest.

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

Amazon pays taxes, you make them pay more and that’s just a tax on everyone when they pass that cost on to you when you buy stuff.

It doesn’t matter how much you tax the rich, in the end it’s you that pays, not them.

If you’re working full time in Europe, your money is being taken from you in some form or another at about a 50% clip. The average European is much poorer than the average American.

The socialists are right that you didn’t build that, that we educated the workforce, but wrong to think you can take anything back to make that 2k today have anything remotely close to the same purchasing power it does now. There actually is no way unfortunately to get something from nothing, as if it’s a natural law... indeed, you print money it’s a tax on everyone, not a stimulus. If it doesn’t show up in inflation, it’s because there are deflationary effects like much lower demand or something like output and productivity has far outpaced the effect of inflation, so you don't feel it, but rest assured it's still there.

And the problem still remains, you're mad as hell at Bezos' wealth, but just gave him your 1200 stimulus check of goods he's gladly going to deliver to you in 2 prime days.

 

[Ron Mehico]

I have absolutely no idea what the hell anybody is yammering about with this ****. Everyone just talking about it like it’s this thing we’ve all been discussing for years. How robots doing easily replaceable jobs are bringing on this inevitably. WTF are you guys talking about. I’ve never even heard of this nonsense. Wouldn’t it cause massive inflation and where are you getting the money from? Might as well be talking about alien landings

 

[joeyrupption]

I have absolutely no idea what the hell anybody is yammering about with this ****. Everyone just talking about it like it’s this thing we’ve all been discussing for years. How robots doing easily replaceable jobs are bringing on this inevitably. WTF are you guys talking about. I’ve never even heard of this nonsense. Wouldn’t it cause massive inflation and where are you getting the money from? Might as well be talking about alien landings

You have nothing to worry about.

 

[812scottj]

Stop looking for a handout...get a job...you’re only entitled to the money your intelligence, education, and experience merit. Meanwhile, get off my lawn, turn your hat around the right way, and get a job.

 

[warrior-cat]

Roth IRAs are an example of a tax-free vehicle with yearly contributions of $6,000/year for an individual. For someone entering the workforce and looking to save for retirement, these make for a good starting point. Even for older folk, a Roth is a good choice.

As an example, If I wanted to retire in 30 years, I could save close to $600k in just my Roth, assuming 7% returns. With that being said, most use 7-9% as their rate per year, depending on their investment strategy. Pretty sure the next few decades won't be that high though.

I will say that Alaska has something similar to UBI, but the money is tied to oil. Though what ya'll are discussing is way more than what is currently going on up north, maybe by a factor of 12.

Increasing taxes on the highest earners might be one of the ways it can work**

**For those using several European nations and their tax rate of say 50%, that is the highest tax bracket and doesn't necessarily mean everyone is taxed at the level. Furthermore, if you happen to be paying 50% taxes, it does not, by any means, mean your entire income is being taxed at 50%. There are things called tax brackets. The wealthy individuals being taxed at a higher rate than regular folk like us will still be able to live lives we could ever hope to live.

A very basic example is below.

Let's assume there are two brackets, anyone above 50k/year is taxed at 50% while those below are taxed at 10%. Most would think the person making 60k/year would pay 30k in taxes and be worse off than someone making 45k. This is not the case. The person making 60k would pay 50% taxes on 10k or 60-50 equating to $5,000. They would also pay an additional 5k in taxes or 50,000*.10, for a total of $10k paid in taxes. Essentially even with their high taxes, they would still be paying less than 20% of their income in taxes.**

**This is a very rudimentary example as taxes are infinitely more complicated than the example above. The numbers used were just for ease of computation. It's those paying the highest taxes currently would just have to pay more if taxes are raised.

Yes but, that is just some IRA's, He posted that 22% of those who don't pay taxes are retirees over 65 and that is not true. Depending on your yearly income, 50 to 85% of your SS is taxed as is most retiree pay unless you are 100% disabled. So that statistic is very misleading. Most retired pay is taxed.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

Amazon pays taxes, you make them pay more and that’s just a tax on everyone when they pass that cost on to you when you buy stuff.

It doesn’t matter how much you tax the rich, in the end it’s you that pays, not them.

If you’re working full time in Europe, your money is being taken from you in some form or another at about a 50% clip. The average European is much poorer than the average American.

The socialists are right that you didn’t build that, that we educated the workforce, but wrong to think you can take anything back to make that 2k today have anything remotely close to the same purchasing power it does now. There actually is no way unfortunately to get something from nothing, as if it’s a natural law... indeed, you print money it’s a tax on everyone, not a stimulus. If it doesn’t show up in inflation, it’s because there are deflationary effects like much lower demand or something like output and productivity has far outpaced the effect of inflation, so you don't feel it, but rest assured it's still there.

And the problem still remains, you're mad as hell at Bezos' wealth, but just gave him your 1200 stimulus check of goods he's gladly going to deliver to you in 2 prime days.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/amazon-not-paying-taxes-trump-bezos-2018-4?amp

• [URL='https://www.businessinsider.com/category/amazon']Amazon

• will not pay federal income tax for the second year in a row, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy,despite being worth $793 billion.

[/URL]

 

[KopiKat]

Stop looking for a handout...get a job...you’re only entitled to the money your intelligence, education, and experience merit. Meanwhile, get off my lawn, turn your hat around the right way, and get a job.

I always like this post. But you forgot to mention the pants down below the *** and tattoos that no decent employer ever wants to look at.

My God, this modern entitlement . . . I blame the Clinton era. And it isn't as if things like FMLA were completely flawed concepts, but there was a new mentality that seemed to have been fostered (or festered) in those days. I mean, seriously. Can it be denied for a moment that the man who was the chosen leader of the most powerful country in the world was publicly cast, in consequence to his own actions, to be accountable very little and to be a victim so much the more?

And so now all these entitlements. And this population with ZERO SHAME . . . insisting upon a right to be given and not understanding or caring for what will be lost. Prepared to receive, unprepared for the cost.

These are not men, emerging from today's boys. These new emergers who believe that it is immoral to experience the tiniest bit of motivation to do for one's self through an equally tiny amount of suffering.

 

[warrior-cat]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/amazon-not-paying-taxes-trump-bezos-2018-4?amp

• 
  
• Amazon will not pay federal income tax for the second year in a row, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy,despite being worth $793 billion.

False.

"Does Amazon pay any taxes?
Amazon. ... "Amazon pays all the taxes we are required to pay in the US and every country where we operate, including paying $2.6 billion in corporate tax and reporting $3.4 billion in tax expense over the last three years," the spokesperson said.Nov 24, 2019"

 

[august-west]

Im just thankful that my house and both cars are paid in full. Everything else is gravy.

 

[HagginHall1999]

I always like this post. But you forgot to mention the pants down below the *** and tattoos that no decent employer ever wants to look at.

My God, this modern entitlement . . . I blame the Clinton era. And it isn't as if things like FMLA were completely flawed concepts, but there was a new mentality that seemed to have been fostered (or festered) in those days. I mean, seriously. Can it be denied for a moment that the man who was the chosen leader of the most powerful country in the world was publicly cast, in consequence to his own actions, to be accountable very little and to be a victim so much the more?

And so now all these entitlements. And this population with ZERO SHAME . . . insisting upon a right to be given and not understanding or caring for what will be lost. Prepared to receive, unprepared for the cost.

These are not men, emerging from today's boys. These new emergers who believe that it is immoral to experience the tiniest bit of motivation to do for one's self through an equally tiny amount of suffering.

A little harsh but mostly accurate. What the younger generation lacks IMO (20 somethings) is perseverance. Working your *** off and being smart about career goes a long way.

 

[HagginHall1999]

I have absolutely no idea what the hell anybody is yammering about with this ****. Everyone just talking about it like it’s this thing we’ve all been discussing for years. How robots doing easily replaceable jobs are bringing on this inevitably. WTF are you guys talking about. I’ve never even heard of this nonsense. Wouldn’t it cause massive inflation and where are you getting the money from? Might as well be talking about alien landings

Look it up my brother from another mother. Happy Birthday tomorrow...your career is in zero jeopardy.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

As a reminder, wildcatboston, a modern day Da Vinci and economic genius, charged his Mom and Dad half to share a $8 Netflix acct

 

[HagginHall1999]

As a reminder, wildcatboston, a modern day Da Vinci and economic genius, charged his Mom and Dad half to share a $8 Netflix acct

My in-laws pay for ours, damn straight. But I pay for the Disney +. Sharing is caring.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

My in-laws pay for ours, damn straight. But I pay for the Disney +. Sharing is caring.

All good. But wildcat boston charges his parents

 

[HagginHall1999]

All good. But wildcat boston charges his parents

Yeah, I don't let my parents pay for anything anymore. They have helped me plenty in my life. It is on me now...whatever they need.

I am an only child so it is a different beast.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

5G will make autonomous vehicles a reality. We're only a few years away from over 3 million truck drivers losing their careers.

Fake news and I work on autonomous trucks.

 

[warrior-cat]

Also, with automation, UBI is going to have to be implemented sooner rather than later. If people did get 2k/month, they could continue working, or they can try to figure out what exactly they want to do with their life. I've seen people say 2k is not that much money, but when you are talking about 2k per person, it could go a long way.

I reside in the northside of Chicago around a block from the lake and budget about 2k/mo; 1.4k for needs and around 600 for travel, hobbies, entertainment, etc.

2k/mo would go far in most places in the United States, and honestly, 1200/mo would be a life-changer for most Americans.

Yes, many areas of the US would enable many Americans to live on $2000.00 a month which would be disastrous in the long run. Who is paying for it?

 

[dgtatu01]

I totally agree! But, this really has to be a coordinated, national movement, not just a few disparate "Made in the USA" groups. This has to come from those with deep pockets, which generally, are the same ones that are outsourcing to China in the first place to make cheaper goods. I would really like to buy American, and willing to pay more, it's just hard as hell to find those goods consistently.

Why would you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes that an American made maybe $10/hour putting together when you could get the same shoe from China for $60? That doesn't hurt an

What is the difference between what we have now:

Me, a taxpayer who’s already paying for the 47% of (mostly) loafers out there

—-OR—-

UBI, where I’m still paying for the loafers out there, plus I’m sending more of my money to the government, so they can take a bigger cut and send less back to me.

Can somebody break this down?

Do you think they are going to take more? Does the debt matter? What does it represent? These are questions you should be asking. Our country finances are not run like a household finances.

Our government through law states that a dollar is good for all transactions that take place in the United States. As a US citizen who is engaged in any economic transaction in this country you can and must be able to use $'s for that transaction. The government through debt spends $'s to provide the country with services and infrastructure. The government can constantly refinance that debt at current interest rates. The only obligation the government has is to pay the interest. They need not ever repay the principal since it can be refinanced. Now many will say this should cause inflation but obviously looking at the last 40 years of US debt spending inflation isn't occurring at anything anyone would call problematic. In fact nearly everything in real terms costs the same or less than it did 40 years ago including our wages. If inflation did occur it also cheapens that same debt anyway. Why is that? Because when the government issues a treasury bond to borrow $10,000 to spend the buyer of the bond gives them $10,000. So while they spend $10,000 and put that cash into the economy $10,000 cash has also been removed from the economy from the lenders pockets.

How is cash and liquidity added to the economy in times of trouble? That is where the federal reserve comes in. They print money (or create it electronically) and buy treasury bonds from the public. This offsets the offset. So when the fed is buying treasuries they are increasing the money supply. If they want to decrease the money supply they go out and sell the treasuries in their holdings and put money back on their shelf.

The government should always spend enough to reach full employment. The federal reserve should use the buying and purchasing of treasury bonds to make sure that the economy has liquidity. Good defense, good interstate highway system, adequate water supply, well managed air travel, adequate and secure networks, education, and now I think healthcare are things a government ought to provide to its citizens. The government always reserves the right to tax, but the absence of taxation for an income generating activity should be looked at as the government favoring that activity and is just as effectual as spending in that area.

I am finding it harder and harder to look at the debt and then look at tax rates on investment income like stock trading and see all of the people who benefit financially from that (me included) and say we can't provide healthcare to all of our citizens. If the debt was going to destroy America it already would have done so. There is 0 evidence of this so to keep bemoaning the debt as an excuse for not doing things is going to hold less and less weight moving forward.

 

[joeyrupption]

Why would you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes that an American made maybe $10/hour putting together when you could get the same shoe from China for $60? That doesn't hurt an

Do you think they are going to take more? Does the debt matter? What does it represent? These are questions you should be asking. Our country finances are not run like a household finances.

Our government through law states that a dollar is good for all transactions that take place in the United States. As a US citizen who is engaged in any economic transaction in this country you can and must be able to use $'s for that transaction. The government through debt spends $'s to provide the country with services and infrastructure. The government can constantly refinance that debt at current interest rates. The only obligation the government has is to pay the interest. They need not ever repay the principal since it can be refinanced. Now many will say this should cause inflation but obviously looking at the last 40 years of US debt spending inflation isn't occurring at anything anyone would call problematic. In fact nearly everything in real terms costs the same or less than it did 40 years ago including our wages. If inflation did occur it also cheapens that same debt anyway. Why is that? Because when the government issues a treasury bond to borrow $10,000 to spend the buyer of the bond gives them $10,000. So while they spend $10,000 and put that cash into the economy $10,000 cash has also been removed from the economy from the lenders pockets.

How is cash and liquidity added to the economy in times of trouble? That is where the federal reserve comes in. They print money (or create it electronically) and buy treasury bonds from the public. This offsets the offset. So when the fed is buying treasuries they are increasing the money supply. If they want to decrease the money supply they go out and sell the treasuries in their holdings and put money back on their shelf.

The government should always spend enough to reach full employment. The federal reserve should use the buying and purchasing of treasury bonds to make sure that the economy has liquidity. Good defense, good interstate highway system, adequate water supply, well managed air travel, adequate and secure networks, education, and now I think healthcare are things a government ought to provide to its citizens. The government always reserves the right to tax, but the absence of taxation for an income generating activity should be looked at as the government favoring that activity and is just as effectual as spending in that area.

I am finding it harder and harder to look at the debt and then look at tax rates on investment income like stock trading and see all of the people who benefit financially from that (me included) and say we can't provide healthcare to all of our citizens. If the debt was going to destroy America it already would have done so. There is 0 evidence of this so to keep bemoaning the debt as an excuse for not doing things is going to hold less and less weight moving forward.

Yes, they will take more.

And I want nothing to do with socialized healthcare, my wife is from Canada and their healthcare sucks for anything more intense than what you’d need a GP for. I don’t want to pay more to have the healthcare quality of poor person when I’ve worked to not be poor.

This year, for instance, we would’ve paid an extra $28k (USD) in taxes for Canadian healthcare that’s worse than what we have now. I’d rather keep that $28k+ year over year.

 

[Tinker Dan]

Im just thankful that my house and both cars are paid in full. Everything else is gravy.

Well, you suck..... Just kidding, hopefully, I will be in that position in just a few years maximum.

That has to be a geat feeling.

 

[BlueBallz_rivals30790]

Why would you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes that an American made maybe $10/hour putting together when you could get the same shoe from China for $60? That doesn't hurt an

Do you think they are going to take more? Does the debt matter? What does it represent? These are questions you should be asking. Our country finances are not run like a household finances.

Our government through law states that a dollar is good for all transactions that take place in the United States. As a US citizen who is engaged in any economic transaction in this country you can and must be able to use $'s for that transaction. The government through debt spends $'s to provide the country with services and infrastructure. The government can constantly refinance that debt at current interest rates. The only obligation the government has is to pay the interest. They need not ever repay the principal since it can be refinanced. Now many will say this should cause inflation but obviously looking at the last 40 years of US debt spending inflation isn't occurring at anything anyone would call problematic. In fact nearly everything in real terms costs the same or less than it did 40 years ago including our wages. If inflation did occur it also cheapens that same debt anyway. Why is that? Because when the government issues a treasury bond to borrow $10,000 to spend the buyer of the bond gives them $10,000. So while they spend $10,000 and put that cash into the economy $10,000 cash has also been removed from the economy from the lenders pockets.

How is cash and liquidity added to the economy in times of trouble? That is where the federal reserve comes in. They print money (or create it electronically) and buy treasury bonds from the public. This offsets the offset. So when the fed is buying treasuries they are increasing the money supply. If they want to decrease the money supply they go out and sell the treasuries in their holdings and put money back on their shelf.

The government should always spend enough to reach full employment. The federal reserve should use the buying and purchasing of treasury bonds to make sure that the economy has liquidity. Good defense, good interstate highway system, adequate water supply, well managed air travel, adequate and secure networks, education, and now I think healthcare are things a government ought to provide to its citizens. The government always reserves the right to tax, but the absence of taxation for an income generating activity should be looked at as the government favoring that activity and is just as effectual as spending in that area.

I am finding it harder and harder to look at the debt and then look at tax rates on investment income like stock trading and see all of the people who benefit financially from that (me included) and say we can't provide healthcare to all of our citizens. If the debt was going to destroy America it already would have done so. There is 0 evidence of this so to keep bemoaning the debt as an excuse for not doing things is going to hold less and less weight moving forward.

its pretty simple for me, bring more jobs back to the US and less reliance overseas. According to an article I read, it would be a $50 difference on a pair of shoes, not a $250 difference. However, that will probably be the narrative that Nike, Adidas and others will paint. It’s much easier to just send it overseas to cheap and unregulated economies rather than being innovative. In all likelihood though, when this is over, nothing will change with China. They will continue to lie, cheat and steal while screwing over America.

 

[warrior-cat]

Why would you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes that an American made maybe $10/hour putting together when you could get the same shoe from China for $60? That doesn't hurt an

Do you think they are going to take more? Does the debt matter? What does it represent? These are questions you should be asking. Our country finances are not run like a household finances.

Our government through law states that a dollar is good for all transactions that take place in the United States. As a US citizen who is engaged in any economic transaction in this country you can and must be able to use $'s for that transaction. The government through debt spends $'s to provide the country with services and infrastructure. The government can constantly refinance that debt at current interest rates. The only obligation the government has is to pay the interest. They need not ever repay the principal since it can be refinanced. Now many will say this should cause inflation but obviously looking at the last 40 years of US debt spending inflation isn't occurring at anything anyone would call problematic. In fact nearly everything in real terms costs the same or less than it did 40 years ago including our wages. If inflation did occur it also cheapens that same debt anyway. Why is that? Because when the government issues a treasury bond to borrow $10,000 to spend the buyer of the bond gives them $10,000. So while they spend $10,000 and put that cash into the economy $10,000 cash has also been removed from the economy from the lenders pockets.

How is cash and liquidity added to the economy in times of trouble? That is where the federal reserve comes in. They print money (or create it electronically) and buy treasury bonds from the public. This offsets the offset. So when the fed is buying treasuries they are increasing the money supply. If they want to decrease the money supply they go out and sell the treasuries in their holdings and put money back on their shelf.

The government should always spend enough to reach full employment. The federal reserve should use the buying and purchasing of treasury bonds to make sure that the economy has liquidity. Good defense, good interstate highway system, adequate water supply, well managed air travel, adequate and secure networks, education, and now I think healthcare are things a government ought to provide to its citizens. The government always reserves the right to tax, but the absence of taxation for an income generating activity should be looked at as the government favoring that activity and is just as effectual as spending in that area.

I am finding it harder and harder to look at the debt and then look at tax rates on investment income like stock trading and see all of the people who benefit financially from that (me included) and say we can't provide healthcare to all of our citizens. If the debt was going to destroy America it already would have done so. There is 0 evidence of this so to keep bemoaning the debt as an excuse for not doing things is going to hold less and less weight moving forward.

How much can we borrow and how much can we print before it ($) no longer has worth? Even treasuries/collateral have limits.

 

[TortElvisII]

Fake news and I work on autonomous trucks.

You mean to tell me John Deere doesn't want to load a $600,000 combine on a truck with no driver and send it across to Kansas? I mean nobody would think about stopping the truck and taking the combine off.

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

All of that's possible because we are the big dog on the block, no one can call our bluff so to speak but instead have to give us some of their chips because if they don't, they won't be dealt a hand in the next round.

Giving to the individual as much economic self determination as possible is how we got here, for better/worse, as unquestionably the best nation in the history of history. To actually accomplish all the things the left naively dreams of requires much more change than they are willing to honestly admit. If you are paying the government 50% of your income in some form, which is what it takes to create a welfare state, then you are essentially a government employee for 6 months out of the year. That's not what I signed up for, and I really don't want my doctor to be a government employee 12 months out of the year lest he looks like the chick at the DMV, the angry guy who delivers your mail, or at best the teachers in OKlahoma or Kentucky or wherever they were complaining because they aren't compensated well enough and have to buy their own class materials.

 

[chroix]

We’re going to need something when most tasks are automated. Robots going to screw everyone. Literally and figuratively.