Bill Belichick. Amazing coach, or very fortunate?

[Grant Green]

There is a possibility that BBs time in NE could be coming to and end after this weekend. Watching the Patriots downward spiral makes me wonder how good BB really is. Or was it really Tom Brady?

BB record with Brady (includes playoffs)
232-72 76%

BB record without Brady
71-93 43%

Also important to note is that TB won a super bowl the year after he left NE.

 

[LionJim]

Belichick is a genius because Drew Bledsoe got himself injured?

 

[GrimReaper]

There is a possibility that BBs time in NE could be coming to and end after this weekend. Watching the Patriots downward spiral makes me wonder how good BB really is. Or was it really Tom Brady?

BB record with Brady (includes playoffs)
232-72 76%

BB record without Brady
71-93 43%

Also important to note is that TB won a super bowl the year after he left NE.

Impossible to say for certain, but consider this: Brady was a sixth round pick, 199 overall. Did not impress at the Combine. Charlie Weis had to do a major (Brady was pretty much hopeless when he got to training camp) overhaul of the way he read defenses. Brady put in the work and the rest is history. Question becomes if Brady is selected by another team is he ever heard from, ever.

Pays your money, takes you choice.

 

[ODShowtime]

That coach has been lucky as hell along with all the accolades that others will shower on him.

You have to be lucky to win a title. You have to be insanely lucky to win all that he has.

 

[Nitt1300]

Is there some way we can blame Franklin?

 

[Grant Green]

Impossible to say for certain, but consider this: Brady was a sixth round pick, 199 overall. Did not impress at the Combine. Charlie Weis had to do a major (Brady was pretty much hopeless when he got to training camp) overhaul of the way he read defenses. Brady put in the work and the rest is history. Question becomes if Brady is selected by another team is he ever heard from, ever.

Pays your money, takes you choice.

Good point. Also possible that he was underrated in the draft.
So, what you are saying is that Charlie Weis in the true genius here.

 

[Gobert21]

He was pretty good a skirting the rules or better known as cheating.

 

[Grant Green]

Is there some way we can blame Franklin?

 

[GrimReaper]

Good point. Also possible that he was underrated in the draft.
So, what you are saying is that Charlie Weis in the true genius here.

Underrated? Sure, happens regularly. Combine performance, though, confirmed what the scouts were sayiing.

Not as if Brady wowed everyone from Day One at New England. Charlie Weis, genius? Guess it can happen to anyone once.

 

[BobPSU92]

belichick to tuscaloosa as an analyst.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Amazing coach, that also got plenty of positive variance along the way...one player alone doesn't win all those titles

 

[rudedude]

All I know is that MFer has haunted the Bills forever. He was the DC when the Giants beat the Bills in SB XXV 20-19. He took away the Bills passing game & the Bills kept trying to pass instead of handing it off to Thurman Thomas. His cheatin’ days are over in NE.

 

[Grant Green]

Underrated? Sure, happens regularly. Combine performance, though, confirmed what the scouts were sayiing.

Not as if Brady wowed everyone from Day One at New England. Charlie Weis, genius? Guess it can happen to anyone once.

If it was an average QB, I'd say that maybe early development was a big factor. However, we're talking about arguably the best of all time. Has to be a lot more than development.

Note that BB has not developed any other QB like this. Mac Jones has devolved in a big way.

 

[WestSideLion]

Belichek is a great coach. His years under Parcells winning two Super Bowls are also evidence of that. But, even great coaches need luck. Brady was a winning powerball ticket. They both did better together. Can we agree on that?

 

[Grant Green]

Amazing coach, that also got plenty of positive variance along the way...one player alone doesn't win all those titles

Also a good point. I think he definitely had good players and great defenses. One player doesn't win all those titles by himself, but a HOF QB can make a good team great.

 

[Blair10]

There is a possibility that BBs time in NE could be coming to and end after this weekend. Watching the Patriots downward spiral makes me wonder how good BB really is. Or was it really Tom Brady?

BB record with Brady (includes playoffs)
232-72 76%

BB record without Brady
71-93 43%

Also important to note is that TB won a super bowl the year after he left NE.

You do realize that in at least 2 of the Patriots Super Bowl wins, Brady was not the reason the Patriots won the game. For example, the 2005 Super Bowl where the Patriots defeated the Eagles 24-21, the 2019 Super Bowl where the Patriots defeated the Rams 13-3. Brady was not the game MVP.

Many fans fall into the trap assuming Brady was the deciding factor in all the Patriot Super Bowl victories. Also, some fans conveniently forget Brady was involved in 3 Super Bowl losses with the Patriots (2007, 2011, 2017).

Check the record books and look closely at Brady’s Patriot Super Bowl stats.

Brady was very good, but too often people embellish his overall record.

The head coach was a major factor and a great coach.

 

[Grant Green]

They both did better together. Can we agree on that?

Maybe? TB won a SB 1 out of every 3 seasons at NE (6 in 19 seasons as starter). Same as Tampa. Did he really need BB?
I know that BB did better with TB, but vice versa? Not so sure.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Is there some way we can blame Franklin?

For 9-3 -and 0 and lots vs big 2?

 

[Big_O]

Belichick was building the Browns back into a contender (assembling a very solid coaching staff at the same time) when fArt Modell moved the team and then inexplicably fired him. He got lucky that his assistant coach (QB’s) Dick Rhebein insisted he draft Brady, because Belichick wanted to draft a defensive player instead at that position. Rhebein was instrumental in Brady’s early development.

 

[Grant Green]

You do realize that in at least 2 of the Patriots Super Bowl wins, Brady was not the reason the Patriots won the game. For example, the 2005 Super Bowl where the Patriots defeated the Eagles 24-21, the 2019 Super Bowl where the Patriots defeated the Rams 13-3. Brady was not the game MVP.

Many fans fall into the trap assuming Brady was the deciding factor in all the Patriot Super Bowl victories. Also, some fans conveniently forget Brady was involved in 3 Super Bowl losses with the Patriots (2007, 2011, 2017).

Check the record books and look closely at Brady’s Patriot Super Bowl stats.

Brady was very good, but too often people embellish his overall record.

Winning a super bowl is more than just winning the final game. There is a regular season (HFA is important in playoffs) and playoff games too.
So, you're saying he was 6-3 in super bowls and somehow the 3 losses are a detractor? Ok.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

There are tons of moving parts on a nfl team. Everyone gets credit imo, even his son while he laxed at rutgers

 

[GrimReaper]

If it was an average QB, I'd say that maybe early development was a big factor. However, we're talking about arguably the best of all time. Has to be a lot more than development.

Note that BB has not developed any other QB like this. Mac Jones has devolved in a big way.

Brady had the tools both physical and mental. He is also monomaniacal in his devotion to his craft. None of which made him anything more than a run of the mill college QB. Something was missing. Belichick & Co recognized it and remedied it.

There aren't many coaches that develop a string of HoF QBs. Belichick's sample size is pretty small.

 

[Grant Green]

There aren't many coaches that develop a string of HoF QBs. Belichick's sample size is pretty small.

Has he even developed another QB to be average?

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Well he’s a D guy so.

 

[GrimReaper]

Has he even developed another QB to be average?

He inherited Bernie Kosar in Cleveland. Same with Bledsoe in New England. Then Brady and Jones. Like I said, small sample size.

 

[PSUAVLNC]

I think Belichick’s situation goes to show that to be really good, you’ve got to have talent (good & some great players) and really good coaches. Belichick had all that and now the Patriots lack talent. I always thought the same of Parcells. Those Giants teams were loaded with talent, unbelievably good talent. Where else did Parcells have success? The Jets? Frankly always thought The Big Tuna was way overrated, but that’s just me. You can’t have one and not the other. It takes both. I also think great players can make average coaches look better than they really are.

 

[Grant Green]

Pittsburgh guys - How many super bowls would Mike Tomlin have if he had TB?

 

[Blair10]

There is a possibility that BBs time in NE could be coming to and end after this weekend. Watching the Patriots downward spiral makes me wonder how good BB really is. Or was it really Tom Brady?

BB record with Brady (includes playoffs)
232-72 76%

BB record without Brady
71-93 43%

Also important to note is that TB won a super bowl the year after he left NE.

Bill Belichick is a bonafide Hall of Fame coach whose reputation goes without question.

For you to insinuate he had nothing to do with the Patriots success is absurd.

 

[Grant Green]

No. You missed the point. I was addressing the original post insinuating Brady was the sole reason for the Patriots success.

Belichick’s accomplishments are hall of fame worthy.

No, I got the point. I wouldn't say TB is the sole reason for NE success, but the most important.

BB accomplishments with TB are HOF worthy. His accomplishments without are not.

 

[Bison13]

Pittsburgh guys - How many super bowls would Mike Tomlin have if he had TB?

At least two more

 

[GrimReaper]

Pittsburgh guys - How many super bowls would Mike Tomlin have if he had TB?

Flip it over: how many of the great coaches have won multiple titles with multiple QBs? Lombardi? No. Shula? No. Noll? No. Walsh? No.

Parcells? His second title was with a QB who was an afterthought. Probably could have won both of his with me calling signals.

 

[GrimReaper]

No, I got the point. I wouldn't say TB is the sole reason for NE success, but the most important.

BB accomplishments with TB are HOF worthy. His accomplishments without are not.

So you're going to selectively focus on 25-30% of Belichik's career? Maybe you should do that for every other HoF coach for years in which they didn't have star QBs.

 

[ODShowtime]

Pittsburgh guys - How many super bowls would Mike Tomlin have if he had TB?

It's more interesting to me to talk about luck than TB.

Without luck, the Steelers wouldn't have won XLIII for sure. What if Fitz had succeeded in running down Harrison for the 100 yard interception return TD? He was close.

With a pinch more luck, the Steelers may have won XLV. What if the line held another second and Ben wasn't hit when he threw the early pick 6? It could have been a TD.

Luck was crucial in patriot's superbowls. Game winning field goals, ridiculous collapses by the Falcons and Seahawks. Insane helmet catch by the Giants.

 

[Grant Green]

Flip it over: how many of the great coaches have won multiple titles with multiple QBs? Lombardi? No. Shula? No. Noll? No. Walsh? No.

Parcells? His second title was with a QB who was an afterthought. Probably could have won both of his with me calling signals.

Joe Gibbs

 

[Grant Green]

So you're going to selectively focus on 25-30% of Belichik's career? Maybe you should do that for every other HoF coach for years in which they didn't have star QBs.

Well, that's the whole point. What is he with and without Brady. It's not that he's a little worse without TB. He is way worse.
I don't have time to look up all HOF coaches, but I bet the majority their records without a star QB is better than 43%. Hell, look at Tomlin since Ben left. Not fantastic, but no losing records and somehow he has his team with a chance to make the playoffs this year.

 

[LionJim]

Flip it over: how many of the great coaches have won multiple titles with multiple QBs? Lombardi? No. Shula? No. Noll? No. Walsh? No.

Parcells? His second title was with a QB who was an afterthought. Probably could have won both of his with me calling signals.

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. He had the best GM, or one of the best, that helped.

Grant beat me to it.

 

[Grant Green]

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. He had the best GM, or one of the best, that helped.

Grant beat me to it.

Possibly the best coach ever. I believe Football Outsiders has one of those teams ranked as the greatest of all time.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Flip it over: how many of the great coaches have won multiple titles with multiple QBs? Lombardi? No. Shula? No. Noll? No. Walsh? No.

Parcells? His second title was with a QB who was an afterthought. Probably could have won both of his with me calling signals.

with a lite in your off hand

 

[GrimReaper]

Well, that's the whole point. What is he with and without Brady. It's not that he's a little worse without TB. He is way worse.
I don't have time to look up all HOF coaches, but I bet the majority their records without a star QB is better than 43%. Hell, look at Tomlin since Ben left. Not fantastic, but no losing records and somehow he has his team with a chance to make the playoffs this year.

Chuck Noll's winning percentage without Bradshaw: 39.3%. And he was 1-13 during Bradshaw's rookie year.

 

[Grant Green]

Chuck Noll's winning percentage without Bradshaw: 39.3%. And he was 1-13 during Bradshaw's rookie year.

Touche, but as you say, small sample size. Give me some more.
1969 was his first year as a HC and was a bit of an outlier. Take that out and that % goes up a bit. I'll be fair and take out BB's first season too, but that will probably only boost him to 44%.