CCL Expansion

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

There was some public talk last week from the ADs at Loyola and MC regarding the desire of the CCL to expand.

One of the big drawbacks of expansion from the perspective of potential new CCL members is its lack of a corresponding girls conference. What options for girls are there for coed schools like Marist or Carmel Catholic to consider jumping to the CCL? They can stay in the ESCC, assuming they would be welcome to stay. Boys at PC, Mac and Fenwick are in the CCL and girls teams from those schools are in the ESCC, so the precedent is already in place.

What about the Girls Catholic Athletic Conference (GCAC)? CCL members LA, DLS, Iggy, Joe's, DePaul and SFDS already have their girls teams competing in the GCAC. If the CCL really wants to expand, can anyone think of good reasons why the GCAC and CCL shouldn't merge as a strategy to attract coed schools?

Unless the CCL does something to address the girls situation, I think that successfully poaching teams from the ESCC is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are two all-boys schools (NDCP and Pat's) remaining in the ESCC. They could come over to the CCL with no worries about what to do with girls teams...assuming they want to leave, which I think is a huge assumption.

What is the biggest drawback to CCL football? Without a doubt, it has to be crossover games. Below is an expansion scenario that would limit crossover games and make them more reasonable from a competitive standpoint. It involves successfully recruiting Guerin, St. Ed's, Wheaton Academy, Aurora Central Catholic, Walther Lutheran, IC and Chicago Christian away from that hybrid public/private Metro Suburban conference. Here is what a football division alignment might look like with the above schools in an expanded CCL:

LA
MC
BR
SR
PC
MCHS
SFHS
Friar

Marmion
Aurora Christian
DLS
Laurence
Iggy
Mac
DePaul
LFA

Guerin
IC
Leo
Walther
Joe’s
Wheaton Acad
Chgo Christian
Aurora Catholic
St. Ed’s

For crossover games, only the top two divisions and lower two divisions would play each other.

With an eight school top division, each school in that division plays seven games against its division opponents and one game against a school from the division immediately below. That leaves one game for top division schools to schedule against a non-conference opponent.

With an eight school middle division, each school would play seven games against division opponents, one crossover against a top division school, and one against a lower division school. No non-conference games for those middle division schools to schedule at all.

With a bottom division of nine schools, each school would play eight games against division opponents and one crossover against a middle division opponent. Each year, one lower division school would not be able to play in a crossover game and would have to schedule one non-con game. All the other schools in that division would not schedule any non-con games.

Does anyone have any better ideas?

 

[pjjp]

I think you are aware that PC, Mac and Fenwick girls programs left the ESCC and joined the GCAC. I believe this is their first year in the GCAC. It looks like the GCAC added 6 new member schools and are up to 22. FYI.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...etic-conference-tl-0430-20150427-9-story.html

 

[BretEpic]

You need a better in with the LA AD man, from what I've heard he has more grandiose plans that will bolster football, not inhibit it. And I'm only a Loyola U alum...

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I think you are aware that PC, Mac and Fenwick girls programs left the ESCC and joined the GCAC. I believe this is their first year in the GCAC. It looks like the GCAC added 6 new member schools and are up to 22. FYI.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...etic-conference-tl-0430-20150427-9-story.html

Now that you mention it, I did hear that, but I wasn't sure when it was happening. I checked the ESCC website, and they still have those schools listed as members. Thanks for the correction.

I admit that I was wrong. Don't ever want to be accused of not admitting when I am wrong.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

You need a better in with the LA AD man, from what I've heard he has more grandiose plans that will bolster football, not inhibit it. And I'm only a Loyola U alum...

Don't quite understand the inhibiting comment, but the gist of your post is interesting nevertheless. Have you heard about specific schools being targeted for expansion?

BTW, don't tell jwar about your being an alumnus of a Jesuit institution. He thinks we're a bunch of know-it-alls.

 

[BretEpic]

Don't quite understand the inhibiting comment, but the gist of your post is interesting nevertheless. Have you heard about specific schools being targeted for expansion?

BTW, don't tell jwar about your being an alumnus of a Jesuit institution. He thinks we're a bunch of know-it-alls.

Those crossover games would inhibit the FB team IMO. No point in adding schools that bad. If Rita is doomed as people say, and BR remains perennial BR, adding Walther and the like is a negative.

I have heard a specific school, and it makes plenty of sense for both parties. There might be more, but not sure if the connections are as strong.

I just let you do your argument thing, won't try and mess that up, don't worry.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

Rita is not doomed, just needs to up their game in the recruiting.

Rita
MC
LA
BR
PC
Montini/Naz (or.. por que no los dos?)

Easily becomes the best conference in the state, potential sweep of 5A-8A State Champions ( I understand the success factor might take away from this and enrollement changes), but fun to think about.

 

[ssi84]

Why would Fenwick ever agree to that? It would be like scheduling 6 auto losses almost every year.I'm sure they could pull some upsets every now and then but would be very hard for them to make the playoffs too often.

 

[sac'em]

Maybe Marian of the Heights would go to CCL White?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Why would Fenwick ever agree to that? It would be like scheduling 6 auto losses almost every year.I'm sure they could pull some upsets every now and then but would be very hard for them to make the playoffs too often.

The CCL does not exist for the sole reason of Fenwick or DLS or whoever making the playoffs too often or even at all. If the CCL requires it, they have two choices. They can suit up and play the games or they can go find another conference. It's just that simple. I'm sick and tired of the inmates running the CCL asylum.

Putting a more positive spin on it, the Friars simply need to get better. Their enrollment is larger than Montini and SF by several hundred more students. It is slightly larger that PC's enrollment. In 2013, the Friars beat Rice once in the regular season and once in the Prep Bowl. In the same season they were competitive against PC, dropping an 8 point decision to the Celtics. It CAN be done.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Those crossover games would inhibit the FB team IMO. No point in adding schools that bad. If Rita is doomed as people say, and BR remains perennial BR, adding Walther and the like is a negative.

I have heard a specific school, and it makes plenty of sense for both parties. There might be more, but not sure if the connections are as strong.

I just let you do your argument thing, won't try and mess that up, don't worry.

Oh, I'm not worried at all. So I will argue that adding Walther, Chicago Christian, etc. (remember those schools from the old PSL? Correct me if I am wrong, as I'm sure you will, but didn't that league boot Naz?) to the CCL would not inhibit anything. As I demonstrated in my original thread, it would improve the league by cutting way down on the number of crossover games and making the remaining crossover games more competitive.

 

[BretEpic]

Correct me if I am wrong, as I'm sure you will, but didn't that league boot Naz?)

What? Not at all.

And your hypothetical top two and bottom two scenario would work, but that's only if they follow your guidelines. They likely wouldn't want to argue, so they'd go along I'm sure.

 

[catsattackfor3]

The CCL does not exist for the sole reason of Fenwick or DLS or whoever making the playoffs too often or even at all. If the CCL requires it, they have two choices. They can suit up and play the games or they can go find another conference. It's just that simple. I'm sick and tired of the inmates running the CCL asylum.

Putting a more positive spin on it, the Friars simply need to get better. Their enrollment is larger than Montini and SF by several hundred more students. It is slightly larger that PC's enrollment. In 2013, the Friars beat Rice once in the regular season and once in the Prep Bowl. In the same season they were competitive against PC, dropping an 8 point decision to the Celtics. It CAN be done.

Fenwick will have no part of this. Has been going on for years in the discussion stage every time the rest of the conference agrees Fenwick must step up to the Blue division to make things work they threaten to bolt, then they move on to DeLaSale and they threaten as well. So then you have two stable traditional founding members of the CCL threatening to leave and the discussion dies right there.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Fenwick will have no part of this. Has been going on for years in the discussion stage every time the rest of the conference agrees Fenwick must step up to the Blue division to make things work they threaten to bolt, then they move on to DeLaSale and they threaten as well. So then you have two stable traditional founding members of the CCL threatening to leave and the discussion dies right there.

Fenwick may not WANT any part of that, but what choice do they have? Where would Fenwick go if the CCL called their bluff? Maybe Fenwick thinks it would be better off in the ESCC. Do the Friars really want to lose football games to nearby private schools like Naz, Benet and Pat's? Which is worse for Fenwick? Lose big to MC and Loyola or lose more often than not to Naz and lose half their games against Benet and Pat's? Keep in mind that Fenwick competes with Naz, Benet and Pat's for many of the same students.

I say the CCL should do what it thinks it needs to do for the betterment of the entire league, regardless of the hissy fits of one or two of its members. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Hey, here's an idea...maybe Fenwick can petition the Metro Suburban for membership. It's the only public/private conference with schools Fenwick's size in the Chicago area. How deliciously ironic it would be if those schools turned Fenwick down because they felt Fenwick was too competitive for them. On the other hand, if Fenwick were to get in that conference, how will it play within the Fenwick community to lose long time CCL rivals in favor of schools like Fenton, R-B and Ridgewood?

 

[Cross Bones]

ram, how do you feel about Fenwick?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

ram, how do you feel about Fenwick?

I have always liked Fenwick as a school. They're very similar to Loyola in terms of demographics, moral/ethical values, academic focus and history. The Friars are stalwart members of the CCL.

I don't know anything about the Fenwick situation regarding the CCL Blue beyond what I have read here over the years. Assuming that what I have read about their threatening to leave is true or substantially true, then I find that to be very disappointing. If Fenwick has the stones to make such a threat/bluff, I think the CCL should find the stones to call it.

They need us more than we need them.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Rita is not doomed, just needs to up their game in the recruiting.

Rita
MC
LA
BR
PC
Montini/Naz (or.. por que no los dos?)

Easily becomes the best conference in the state, potential sweep of 5A-8A State Champions ( I understand the success factor might take away from this and enrollement changes), but fun to think about.

Speaking of 5-8A can u imagine the outcry this year when JC is leading Washington 42-0 at half and SHG Montini are in 6A title game, 8A LA in title game, MC maybe 7A

 

[godfthr53]

Speaking of 5-8A can u imagine the outcry this year when JC is leading Washington 42-0 at half and SHG Montini are in 6A title game, 8A LA in title game, MC maybe 7A

Why can't JCA just be south this year.

 

[redmen85]

Why can't JCA just be south this year.

Who are you wanting to avoid? Naz? I
If they end up in 6a, 5A becomes very very weak.

 

[Cross Bones]

I have always liked Fenwick as a school. They're very similar to Loyola in terms of demographics, moral/ethical values, academic focus and history. The Friars are stalwart members of the CCL.

I don't know anything about the Fenwick situation regarding the CCL Blue beyond what I have read here over the years. Assuming that what I have read about their threatening to leave is true or substantially true, then I find that to be very disappointing. If Fenwick has the stones to make such a threat/bluff, I think the CCL should find the stones to call it.

They need us more than we need them.

You are likely correct in who needs who. There does seem to be a "wag the dog" situation going on. As an outside observer it would seem that the way around this is to break up the divisions all together. Like the article said don't use the success factor.

Problem is you'd still get those unsavory matchups they just wouldn't be crossovers. But at least at that point the schools who should be blue by the current criteria but refuse would only be subjected to maybe two blue teams per season depending on how the divisions are carved up.

Doesn't help Joes much, the middle perhaps and the blue schools certainly.

This is why you like districts... Which is reasonable depending on how they divide them up.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Why can't JCA just be south this year.

If Naz, LWW, join Montini SHG in 6A the IHSA would be solely to blame for the carnage that would happen in 5A with JC with no FE, not having proper seeding in past so JC was knocked out earlier by Montini , SF and SF not applied to publics like Rochester.

 

[catsattackfor3]

Fenwick may not WANT any part of that, but what choice do they have? Where would Fenwick go if the CCL called their bluff? Maybe Fenwick thinks it would be better off in the ESCC. Do the Friars really want to lose football games to nearby private schools like Naz, Benet and Pat's? Which is worse for Fenwick? Lose big to MC and Loyola or lose more often than not to Naz and lose half their games against Benet and Pat's? Keep in mind that Fenwick competes with Naz, Benet and Pat's for many of the same students.

I say the CCL should do what it thinks it needs to do for the betterment of the entire league, regardless of the hissy fits of one or two of its members. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Hey, here's an idea...maybe Fenwick can petition the Metro Suburban for membership. It's the only public/private conference with schools Fenwick's size in the Chicago area. How deliciously ironic it would be if those schools turned Fenwick down because they felt Fenwick was too competitive for them. On the other hand, if Fenwick were to get in that conference, how will it play within the Fenwick community to lose long time CCL rivals in favor of schools like Fenton, R-B and Ridgewood?

the choice they have is to do what they always do and say they will not do it. They argue De La Salle should move up and then De La Salle argues....and on and on it goes. i have heard this story so many times every time there is need for movement in the CCL leagues because of schools dropping football, realignment etc. As always no one wants any part of the Power 5 schools in the CCL. If you did away with the 5 wins needed for a playoff berth than i bet Fenwick and De La Salle would look at as a benefit. Look Fenwick football recruits all the time under the premise that they play in the TOUGH CCL when a kid tells them their other choice maybe an ESSC school....then they avoid Loyola and the 4 South Side schools like the plague. And really how can you blame them

 

[RRH1]

There was some public talk last week from the ADs at Loyola and MC regarding the desire of the CCL to expand.

One of the big drawbacks of expansion from the perspective of potential new CCL members is its lack of a corresponding girls conference. What options for girls are there for coed schools like Marist or Carmel Catholic to consider jumping to the CCL? They can stay in the ESCC, assuming they would be welcome to stay. Boys at PC, Mac and Fenwick are in the CCL and girls teams from those schools are in the ESCC, so the precedent is already in place.

What about the Girls Catholic Athletic Conference (GCAC)? CCL members LA, DLS, Iggy, Joe's, DePaul and SFDS already have their girls teams competing in the GCAC. If the CCL really wants to expand, can anyone think of good reasons why the GCAC and CCL shouldn't merge as a strategy to attract coed schools?

Unless the CCL does something to address the girls situation, I think that successfully poaching teams from the ESCC is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are two all-boys schools (NDCP and Pat's) remaining in the ESCC. They could come over to the CCL with no worries about what to do with girls teams...assuming they want to leave, which I think is a huge assumption.

What is the biggest drawback to CCL football? Without a doubt, it has to be crossover games. Below is an expansion scenario that would limit crossover games and make them more reasonable from a competitive standpoint. It involves successfully recruiting Guerin, St. Ed's, Wheaton Academy, Aurora Central Catholic, Walther Lutheran, IC and Chicago Christian away from that hybrid public/private Metro Suburban conference. Here is what a football division alignment might look like with the above schools in an expanded CCL:

LA
MC
BR
SR
PC
MCHS
SFHS
Friar

Marmion
Aurora Christian
DLS
Laurence
Iggy
Mac
DePaul
LFA

Guerin
IC
Leo
Walther
Joe’s
Wheaton Acad
Chgo Christian
Aurora Catholic
St. Ed’s

For crossover games, only the top two divisions and lower two divisions would play each other.

With an eight school top division, each school in that division plays seven games against its division opponents and one game against a school from the division immediately below. That leaves one game for top division schools to schedule against a non-conference opponent.

With an eight school middle division, each school would play seven games against division opponents, one crossover against a top division school, and one against a lower division school. No non-conference games for those middle division schools to schedule at all.

With a bottom division of nine schools, each school would play eight games against division opponents and one crossover against a middle division opponent. Each year, one lower division school would not be able to play in a crossover game and would have to schedule one non-con game. All the other schools in that division would not schedule any non-con games.

Does anyone have any better ideas?

How many of these will be playing football in 5 years?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

How many of these will be playing football in 5 years?

Most all but a handful of the schools that I mentioned.

 

[RRH1]

Around 5

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Maybe they can move Mac to the Blue?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I heard Shamrock targeted

 

[pjjp]

the choice they have is to do what they always do and say they will not do it. They argue De La Salle should move up and then De La Salle argues....and on and on it goes. i have heard this story so many times every time there is need for movement in the CCL leagues because of schools dropping football, realignment etc. As always no one wants any part of the Power 5 schools in the CCL. If you did away with the 5 wins needed for a playoff berth than i bet Fenwick and De La Salle would look at as a benefit. Look Fenwick football recruits all the time under the premise that they play in the TOUGH CCL when a kid tells them their other choice maybe an ESSC school....then they avoid Loyola and the 4 South Side schools like the plague. And really how can you blame them

I always thought Fenwick and Wheaton St. Francis would be the best fits for the ESCC, when you consider the overall complement of boys and girls sports. IMO, Fenwick would compete very well in football in the ESCC.

 

[eireog]

I heard Shamrock targeted

I've heard this for a couple of years now . They certainly cannot compete in the blue. It would be football suicide for them.

The team that makes the most sense football wise is JCA. They are the only ESCC team that year to year has shown they could play at that level. I know people will toss Naz out there but they have only been at that level for two years. Far too early to say they could compete at that level.

 

[mc140]

Break up the Blue and go by Geography or leave it at 5 cause no one will join. Fenwick will never put the money up needed to compete in the Blue. Delasalle probably could but don't seem inclined to.

 

[Wittymoniker1]

Break up the Blue and go by Geography or leave it at 5 cause no one will join. Fenwick will never put the money up needed to compete in the Blue. Delasalle probably could but don't seem inclined to.

. . . and we have a winner!

 

[guerinfbfan]

JCA doesn't and won't have the depth to battle in the Blue.

I'm a big fan of the JCA program, but they aren't growing if I am correct

 

[pjjp]

JCA doesn't and won't have the depth to battle in the Blue.

I'm a big fan of the JCA program, but they aren't growing if I am correct

You are correct on all accounts. They could compete this year. The next few years? Not so much.

 

[eireog]

You are correct on all accounts. They could compete this year. The next few years? Not so much.

There will always be down years for most teams. The only Catholic school out there right now that has shown year after year they are capable of competing at the very top level is JCA.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Might sound crazy but what if the Green teams rotate to the Blue for a year? Each team gets a year in the Blue. It would cause a trickle down but a crazy idea I had.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

There will always be down years for most teams. The only Catholic school out there right now that has shown year after year they are capable of competing at the very top level is JCA.

When was the last time LA had a down year? Honest question...

 

[mchsalumni]

7-5 in 2006, around or sub 500 the two years before that, so it's been awhile...

 

[eireog]

LA

2004-2005 both 6-6 seasons.

 

[UlbKA91]

Since Rita is having such a s-y year, why not relegate them out to the Green, then add both Friar and Meteor to the Blue. They at least vie for 1 win. The new Green - Rita, the 4 DuKanes and Mac. The remainder would be the third division.

 

[SweetWalter34]

The only Catholic school out there right now that has shown year after year they are capable of competing at the very top level is JCA.

You must not be aware that Holecek at LA celebrated his 100th win on Saturday.