Salty, you seem to have genuine legitimate concern for our program, so I'll engage. The key question in this evolving Mullen debate is "what should be the standard for MSU football?". I'd like to know your thoughts. With your focus on the SEC, lets stick to SEC records. "What is a reasonable standard for MSU?". I'll hang up and listen.
Dear Legion of Mediocrity:
- Thread starter Salty Sands Dawg
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Not Salty but would like to believe that State could be the South Carolina of the west...would like to believe it but am not convinced. And it has taken a combo of Holtz and Spurrier to get them where they are and they still ain't at the top of the east and never will be.
An average of 4-4 in the SEC is about the best we could reasonably hope to do. Average of 3-5 would be very acceptable. I know a lot of people don't want to hear that and refuse to believe it. But that's the reality of where we are. When you play in a conference with 6 of the top 14 football programs all-time, it's just damn near impossible to do much better than that.
You seem to
grasp what some can't. People are constantly pointing to our shortcomings in conference games, and I agree somewhat. Of course I want us to have more success. However, the truth of the matter is that during Dan's time the SEC has experienced its highest level of success. If the SEC were like it were 6..7..10 years ago, then I guarantee we would have a few more wins. Guarantee.
grasp what some can't. People are constantly pointing to our shortcomings in conference games, and I agree somewhat. Of course I want us to have more success. However, the truth of the matter is that during Dan's time the SEC has experienced its highest level of success. If the SEC were like it were 6..7..10 years ago, then I guarantee we would have a few more wins. Guarantee.
I agree with your SEC numbers but would add...there is no need of us getting absolutely mauled every time we play one of the big boys and we should be able to pull off a big upset every couple of years. An SEC program that hovers around .500 in the league should be competitive with anyone on any given Saturday.
Bob Tyler's biggest enemy was ...
Bob Tyler 'after' he became AD. Totally agree, he was great football coach but he was also a horrible AD. He ran off a great BB coach and almost ran off Ron Polk.
So, compare his on field record to Dan's...
Dan Mullen has to date compiled an overall record of 32-25 (56%), with an SEC record of 13-21 (38%) and a non-conference record of 19-4 (83%).
Bob Tyler had an overall (on the field) record of 39-25-3, winning (58%), with an SEC record of 13-23-1, winning(35%) and a non-conference record of 26-2-2, winning (87%)
Bob Tyler won 4 SEC games one year (in '76) but they usually only played 6 SEC games a year. (So, conversly, that would make 5 of 11 OOC, which would be a much more manageable schedule compared to 4 of 12 we currently have)
We went to one bowl game in the six years under Tyler. (But it is much easier to go bowling now than in the mid '70's)
Unless, we totally implode (ala Stans), Mullen deserves at least one more year to make the needed changes to move the program forward. BUT, we better have a coach signed, sealed and ready to be delivered if we do decide to move on ... or, we face another fiasco like our BB hiring.
Bob Tyler 'after' he became AD. Totally agree, he was great football coach but he was also a horrible AD. He ran off a great BB coach and almost ran off Ron Polk.
So, compare his on field record to Dan's...
Dan Mullen has to date compiled an overall record of 32-25 (56%), with an SEC record of 13-21 (38%) and a non-conference record of 19-4 (83%).
Bob Tyler had an overall (on the field) record of 39-25-3, winning (58%), with an SEC record of 13-23-1, winning(35%) and a non-conference record of 26-2-2, winning (87%)
Bob Tyler won 4 SEC games one year (in '76) but they usually only played 6 SEC games a year. (So, conversly, that would make 5 of 11 OOC, which would be a much more manageable schedule compared to 4 of 12 we currently have)
We went to one bowl game in the six years under Tyler. (But it is much easier to go bowling now than in the mid '70's)
Unless, we totally implode (ala Stans), Mullen deserves at least one more year to make the needed changes to move the program forward. BUT, we better have a coach signed, sealed and ready to be delivered if we do decide to move on ... or, we face another fiasco like our BB hiring.
Mullen averages 3.25 SEC wins per year, excluding this year since it's not complete.
I think South Carolina is good goal for the MSU program. Forutnately for them, they have received the luxury of Tennessee and Florida being down a la our 1997-2000 run with Bama, LSU and Auburn. Florida is an above average program since 2010 and Tennessee has sucked since about that time as well. It has allowed South Carolina to take advantage.
At some point - the concept of diminishing returns applies to the money theory. And let's not act like South Carolina's talent base is that much stronger than Mississippi's.
Since Mullen has been here, LSU, Bama, and Auburn has won a national championship or played for one.
At some point - the concept of diminishing returns applies to the money theory. And let's not act like South Carolina's talent base is that much stronger than Mississippi's.
Since Mullen has been here, LSU, Bama, and Auburn has won a national championship or played for one.
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I agree, but I don't even care about beating one of the big boys every few years, I just want us to be competitive. I would take 3-5, 4-4 every year from our coach as long as we aren't getting embarrassed by every team that is middle of the pack or higher. Yea it's great that we played with LSU for 3 quarters, but guess what, we're the only ones that know that. Everyone else sees that we got the brakes beat off of us by 30, and perception is reality when it comes to media and recruiting.
We have the same record as ole miss right now, but if you ask anybody in the country who the better team is, they say ole miss. Why? Because just like people see Ole Miss nearly beat A&M, they see us nearly lose to bowling green. Even though we got the W and they got the L last week...they won in the court of public opinion and if any recruits watched both games they were more impressed with ole miss. That is the reason that games like BG piss me off, and why I want to knock Mullen out when I see his cocky *** laughing and saying "we're happy to be 3-3" in the press conference....we may have won the game last week, but we took a step back in the process.
Only because they're in a division with Florida and Georgia who won't ever stay down for long just as we're in a division with Alabama, LSU and now ATM. Alabama and LSU won't ever stay down for long, don't know about ATM. Everybody wants to win, and so do we but they have more advantages than we do. There's a laundry list.
I agree with your concern. Here are some numbers:
year; #of ranked opponents*; Avg Ranking*; Scoring differential
2009 5 10.80 -7.8
2010 4 7.72 -13
2011 5 7.20 -14.6
2012 4 9.25 -22.5
*Denotes Final AP ranking
It looks like blowout losses didn't really become an issue until 2012. 2009-2011 display the expected inverse relationship between avg ranking and scoring differential.
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Thus the knock on Mullen. If he beats OM last year and Auburn this year (two games he should have won) our football program looks entirely different. I`m not sure he`s ever going to beat many teams that have equal or slightly better talent than his and if you can`t coach well enough to do that at MSU you are dead meat.
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This is the best post I've probably ever read. Agree 100% but...
You forgot one thing.. Starkville as a city is the worst city in the SEC. I know thats a broad statement but when push comes to shove.. Its hard to recruit football players and coaches to starkville mississippi. Football players off the field are just not as highly praised and respected as other schools in the SEC and there is just fewer places for them to hang out socially and thats just my observation after 5 years of being an MSU student and traveling around to other SEC towns.
Also, if we don't significantly improve the salaries and quality of our assistant coaches then whoever our next HC is will fall right squarely where we are now
You forgot one thing.. Starkville as a city is the worst city in the SEC. I know thats a broad statement but when push comes to shove.. Its hard to recruit football players and coaches to starkville mississippi. Football players off the field are just not as highly praised and respected as other schools in the SEC and there is just fewer places for them to hang out socially and thats just my observation after 5 years of being an MSU student and traveling around to other SEC towns.
Also, if we don't significantly improve the salaries and quality of our assistant coaches then whoever our next HC is will fall right squarely where we are now
I believe 4-4 in the SEC should be a minimum, with an average north of 4 SEC wins per year. If you look at the games I cited after the fact list, winning some if not all of those games would have made a big difference in our SEC record (and overall record) over the last four and half years.
I appreciate your South Carolina analogy under Steve Spurrier. I thought about that one and Florida State as another example after I made the original post. Again, the same common ingredient was the leadership.
Actually, I don't think that's only perception ... it's reality. Them hanging with A&M, and almost winning once again, is a lot more impressive than us almost losing to BG, and I'm an MSU fan. I can only imagine what others, who don't really know much about either program, must think. And it's not just A&M ... they beat Texas, an almost perennial powerhouse (and perceived to be one at the worst of times), and they played Alabama a fairly competitive game this year. We've only beaten three basically nobodies, and almost lost one of those. We're going to have to show something the remainder of the year when we get around to playing the big boys for our situation to change.
Even with all that, I'm not quite ready to fire Mullen just yet. If we go 3-9 this year, which is possible, or 4-8 which is somewhat likely, I might change my mind. And he really needs to do better next year with the easier schedule if he wants to keep his remaining support (which is think is the vast majority of fans now ... this board is not necessarily representative of our fan base).
I'm curious at your invocation of Bob Tyler. He was 21-44-2 overall and 7-30 in the conference at MSU. Jackie Sherrill had a .500 overall record and .420 in conference record. He is the only coach in modern football history who arguably did better at MSU than Mullen (.560 and .380) has done so far. And his best stretch at MSU came after his first five years.
One of the fundamental logical errors in this post - and there are many others - is the assumption that teams either get better or get worse linearly based on their current trajectory. There will always be inherent cyclicality, and a good administration has to be able to differentiate between a floundering program and the normal ups and downs of a healthy program.
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One of the fundamental logical errors in this post - and there are many others - is the assumption that teams either get better or get worse linearly based on their current trajectory. There will always be inherent cyclicality, and a good administration has to be able to differentiate between a floundering program and the normal ups and downs of a healthy program.
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I'll take your word on Tyler's record, but he was certainly good when he was a high school coach. I was already gone from there when he started coaching in Meridian, but I recall he had some perfect seasons. I guess that just shows, at least in this case, that being good in high school doesn't necessarily translate to being good in college.
We forfeited a bunch of games during that period and our administration is too busy dressing mannequins to worry about inherent cyclicality.
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If that's true (and I don't doubt it ... just don't know), why would we want to get rid of Mullen? We couldn't get anybody.
Probably would have to settle for a high school girls' basketball coach for football ....
Probably would have to settle for a high school girls' basketball coach for football ....
I can appreciate your optimism and enthusiasm, but suggesting a .500 SEC clip as a low bar borders on naivete. "Bob Tyler showed us MSU could win big" to the tune of a career sec record of 14-22-1 (on the field). Steve Spurrier first 5 years at SC, SEC record 18-22.
As a fanbase we can't keep hiding behind Mullen's salary, using it as justification for better performance (especially in the SEC) when he is 4th lowest paid in the conference, and the 3 coaches lower, Stoops, Malzahn, Freeze, are all under their first contract. (Freeze might have recieved a bump after last year, and the cited contract doesn't include his incentives -100k+ sec win). http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/sec-head-coaching-salaries-after-muschamp-raise/
Maybe we should demand/expect Mullen to beat all the lower paid coaches? which is what you imply when you suggest we aren't getting "our" money's worth from the 2.6 mil. But beating those 3 teams still won't get us to a .500 sec clip.
I understand your frustration, we are all frustrated. I am neither a Mullen hater or defender. I simply want what's best for MSU. Mullen has been good for MSU to this point, and that is undeniable.
Sincere question. Does someone thinking Mullen is not a good football coach and not a long term good fit at MSU automatically propel them into the "Mullen hater" category ? Also a large chunk of whatever good Mullen did for MSU up to the Alabama game of 2012 has been greatly diminished by the pitiful job he`s done since then...this also is undeniable.
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If you hold a negative opinion of mullen's coaching ability based on anything other than wins and losses. Then yes you are a hater. And while I have been less than satisfied with MSU's performance since Alabama '12. I can name only one game (OM '12) that I truly thought we should've won that we did not. (I'm withholding judgement on Aub '13, but it could also fall into this category)
I agree and I don't hate Mullen or anybody else. I do expect us to get our monies worth and I think we have folks who don't think we should beat folks like Arkansas and Auburn and that is absurd. We were prepared so ineptly in the UM game and Northwestern game that it defied logic. Some folks are upset with Mullen because they know he tried to get the Colorado job and he was passed over. Folks also don't want to see an AD automatically extend a contract anymore without results. Veazey's column in the Commercial Appeal pretty much said our AD was already working on an extension. That is almost insane at this point in the season, and is typical of MSU in the past. Performance should be the only criteria for any extension and those who keep on doing it should be fired on the spot because they are a bigger enemy than any rival we have.
I remember watching Tyler's teams as a little kid. Mac Barnes, who was a sophomore on the 1967 team and my Head Coach when I was playing at Meridian High, told me they used to run 36 wind sprints a day when they practiced (don't know if it was individual or round-trip). Anyway, they had the fastest, best-conditioned team in the State. Bob White, George Ranager, Tommy Monsour, a receiver whose last name was Bailey, Smylie Gebhardt, etc. They were scoring 40-50 points a game back in the days when scoring 10-14 a game was considered an explosive offense.
I can only assume that you either did not read or understand the original post and/or you are from a much younger generation who did not experience either of those periods in Mississippi State history. If you will be so kind to look at what I cited "on the field record" for both Bob Tyler and Jackie Sherrill, they are both correct! While the NCAA may have changed both coaches and team records on paper due to forfeits after the fact, one cannot change the reality of what took place on the football field under both of those men during their tenure at Mississippi State. Therefore, I would encourage you to study the post and what was actually said.
Additionally, you say there are many errors in my post. I would like for you to tell me what they are?
Lastly, my post regarding Dan Mullen is an overview cited with facts about his 4.5 year record, not just the current status.
Philly,
One other thing but for Bob Tyler, Emory Bellard would have NEVER won the way he did in 1980 and 1981 because Tyler knew how to recruit better than any coach Mississippi State has had post-WWII.
One other thing but for Bob Tyler, Emory Bellard would have NEVER won the way he did in 1980 and 1981 because Tyler knew how to recruit better than any coach Mississippi State has had post-WWII.
Really? Starkville is the worst city in the SEC? Are you sure you have been to Starkville? Have you ever been to Auburn? Oxford? Fayetteville? Depending on tastes, I can easily add other SEC cities to that short list. You sound like a member of the press from Yankee land that has never been close to Starkville. Miss.Stake sounds like a great name for you, reb.
If some of the facts are not false then it was misleading and slanted to make your case. Mullen is 13-21 in SEC games compared to Crooms 10-30 record and the season is not finished. That's 3 more wins in 6 less games. The historical bottom feeding teams you mentioned were misleading for the most part. Especially when you actually research what they did and how long it took for most of them. Oregon took over 20 years of building and three different head coaches not to mention the enormous amount of money they have brought in since the mid 90's. Frank Beamers record at VA Tech for his first 6 years was 24-40-2. Don't know if we would have wanted a 7th year after that run. The only one you can make a case for similarities is Synder at KSU and he was 18-26 for his first four years and again they had a bigger budget by about 60% at that time. So when you look at historical similarities in a power conference with our budget we are above the curve. I do agree I'm not satisfied and want more but just trying to look at the big picture of what we what accomplished and how others have done so.
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First, you asked me "what is a reasonable standard for MSU?" I provided you with my answer of which you believe is naïve (we agree to disagree but then again look at the point of my original post). Relative to my reference of Bob Tyler, take a look at our record in football from 1949-1972 (7 winning records and 1 bowl), with only one team reaching 7 wins (1963). At that time next to no one believed we could ever win at all in football. In just two seasons Tyler's team won 9 games (1974 #17), only to do it again in 1976 (#20), not to mention his ability to recruit top quality athletes to Mississippi State. So, yes, that is showing people that didn't believe we could win that we could win big! Please reread what I said and put it into perspective based on the game at the time and more importantly what Mississippi State did (or more so did not do) before he arrived. Take the analogy and apply it to today's game which I'm sure you will agree is very different with a lot more resources than we had in the 1970s.
Also, as I said earlier, take a look at the games I cited in my original post that we have lost under Dan Mullen. All of those games were very winnable. Then take a look at Dan Mullen's record (SEC and overall) if we had won those games and tell me what the picture looks like.
I'm not sure why you need to hold judgment on the 2013 Auburn game or any other game that has already been played? It does not matter what Auburn is doing now or a month from now. The facts regarding that game are determined based on what happened that night!
As for your comment about being a "Mullen hater", for the record I do not hate Dan Mullen. Reread what I said in my original post, my loyalty is to Mississippi State, not an employee! As for what he has done, again I think I acknowledged that too. Take another look at my original post.
Also, as I said earlier, take a look at the games I cited in my original post that we have lost under Dan Mullen. All of those games were very winnable. Then take a look at Dan Mullen's record (SEC and overall) if we had won those games and tell me what the picture looks like.
I'm not sure why you need to hold judgment on the 2013 Auburn game or any other game that has already been played? It does not matter what Auburn is doing now or a month from now. The facts regarding that game are determined based on what happened that night!
As for your comment about being a "Mullen hater", for the record I do not hate Dan Mullen. Reread what I said in my original post, my loyalty is to Mississippi State, not an employee! As for what he has done, again I think I acknowledged that too. Take another look at my original post.
Strike, you must not have read the sentence: "Croom’s teams won 10 SEC games, Mullen’s teams have won 13 SEC games in almost the same period of time.
If any of my facts are incorrect, please show me where. For the record, Croom was 10-30 in the SEC, not "10-40" as you stated above.