DeVos--Trump had a country full of qualified administrators with strong education background....

[atlkvb]

Because, as I've stated before, the rate of failing charter schools is not at the point where it is a CLEAR fix to anything. In fact, from what the studies show, charter schools are having the same problems as public schools.....or even more problems (poor management, testing, etc.). Sure, the one you say you sent your kid to may be great, but we also have great public schools. So why change something, bring in charter schools, for something that someone cannot say is a "guarantee" fix?

Private schools are working OK. Why not just have more of them? That's all Charter schools really are anyway. That virtual Charter school my Son attended was a Public school, it just was allowed to operate without a lot of Union or bureaucratic restrictions. I'm not against Public Education, I'm against Government control of Public education. It doesn't work.

It also doesn't work in Health care, the DMV, EPA, or any complex system. Only waste fraud & abuse. Otherwise long lines, poor service, and bureaucratic inefficiencies where ever they operate with no competition.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Private schools are working OK. Why not just have more of them? That's all Charter schools really are anyway. I'm not against Public Education, I'm against Government control of Public education. It doesn't work.

It also doesn't work in Health care, the DMV, EPA, or any complex system. Only waste fraud & abuse. Otherwise long lines, poor service, and bureaucratic inefficiencies where ever they operate with no competition.

So, private sector doesn't have this problem, either? You are just anti-government on anything.

 

[atlkvb]

We all love freedom. But if you can't see the track record of needed government involvement and regulation over business and education, you're just not seeing reality

The government doesn't control education. You are free to send your kids to a religious school, private school. That's the point though, those without money need the government to ensure their children aren't left to schools with class sizes of 40-45 kids with teachers that don't care.

I'd favor shutting down the Department of Education and transferring all of that money back to the States to issue vouchers to Parents who need them to find the schools that fit them best.

They don't have to be run by the Government. If they'd cut taxes even more, most folks would earn enough to pay tuition at more private schools, which would develop more at lower costs if the Government got out of the business of running Public schools.

The Government doesn't run day care centers, and Parents manage to find plenty of decent ones to watch their little ones. Most are run privately by either Churches or or other groups who love kids. Some are good, others are better, but the Government is not running them.

Why not the same model for primary elementary school education?

 

[atlkvb]

So, private sector doesn't have this problem, either? You are just anti-government on anything.

Private schools that don't meet Parent's expectations or produce measurable results don't get students, and if they are run poorly they have to close because Parents pull their kids out.

My folks put me in a Catholic school that was part of our Parish. My tuition was low because we were Church members, but even non Church Parents sent their kids to Our Lady of Lourdes in Buffalo New York instead of the local Public school. When that Catholic school closed because of urban renewal (it was in a Downtown district slated for demolition) Parents were devastated. Most of them were minority, but there were a few White kids in there with me. But they (Parents) found other Private schools because the Buffalo Public Schools sucked. Parents who loved their kids wouldn't choose to send them to Buffalo Public schools, unless they had no other choice financially.

With Vouchers, most of those Parents would have a choice.

 

[atlkvb]

So, private sector doesn't have this problem, either? You are just anti-government on anything.

The private sector has wasteful, inefficient, poor service, low quality operations...all of that. You are correct. But guess what? When they don't operate profitably or serve their customers poorly...they go out of business.

Public schools and Teacher Unions who run them into the ground with poor results and lousy service? They get more money to spend.

 

[MountaineerWV]

The private sector has wasteful, inefficient, poor service, low quality operations...all of that. You are correct. But guess what? When they don't operate profitably or serve their customers poorly...they go out of business.

Public schools and Teacher Unions who run them into the ground with poor results and lousy service? They get more money to spend.

Have you ever looked at the poorer performing schools and those that are above average? They have several things in common.....

1. Poverty areas and inner cities have poor scores....why is that? Oh, because there is no sign of a FUTURE there for the kids. Poverty repeats........I guarantee you if businesses came to these areas, within a decade you'd see better scores. Kids would see there's life out there.

2. The higher public schools are in suburbs, high income areas. Again, why is that? See above.

Yes, IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

 

[atlkvb]

Have you ever looked at the poorer performing schools and those that are above average? They have several things in common.....

1. Poverty areas and inner cities have poor scores....why is that? Oh, because there is no sign of a FUTURE there for the kids. Poverty repeats........I guarantee you if businesses came to these areas, within a decade you'd see better scores. Kids would see there's life out there.

2. The higher public schools are in suburbs, high income areas. Again, why is that? See above.

Yes, IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

Then why do Private schools in those same poor areas with those same disadvantages perform, and do well? Pick any city and you will see that model duplicated. The private schools are right there in the inner cities of Detroit, Cleveland, Washington D.C., Baltimore, St. Louis, Minneapolis, L.A., Phoenix, New York city, Philadelphia, Boston...it doesn't matter. Location is not the determining factor if those schools successfully are educating those kids. The kids are just as poor, the areas are just as blighted as they are for the Public schools.

https://fee.org/articles/private-schools-in-the-inner-city/

 

[Boomboom521]

I'd favor shutting down the Department of Education and transferring all of that money back to the States to issue vouchers to Parents who need them to find the schools that fit them best.

They don't have to be run by the Government. If they'd cut taxes even more, most folks would earn enough to pay tuition at more private schools, which would develop more at lower costs if the Government got out of the business of running Public schools.

The Government doesn't run day care centers, and Parents manage to find plenty of decent ones to watch their little ones. Most are run privately by either Churches or or other groups who love kids. Some are good, others are better, but the Government is not running them.

Why not the same model for primary elementary school education?

And the cost is almost devastating

 

[MountaineerWV]

Then why do Private schools in those same poor areas with those same disadvantages perform, and do well? Pick any city and you will see that model duplicated. The private schools are right there in the inner cities of Detroit, Cleveland, Washington D.C., Baltimore, St. Louis, Minneapolis, L.A., Phoenix, New York city, Philadelphia, Boston...it doesn't matter. Location is not the determining factor if those schools successfully are educating those kids. The kids are just as poor, the areas are just as blighted as they are for the Public schools.

https://fee.org/articles/private-schools-in-the-inner-city/

Because you are comparing apples to oranges. Private schools do not have to take the state standardized tests and all the red tape like public schools. They can skew those numbers easily.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Have you ever looked at the poorer performing schools and those that are above average? They have several things in common.....

1. Poverty areas and inner cities have poor scores....why is that? Oh, because there is no sign of a FUTURE there for the kids. Poverty repeats........I guarantee you if businesses came to these areas, within a decade you'd see better scores. Kids would see there's life out there.

2. The higher public schools are in suburbs, high income areas. Again, why is that? See above.

Yes, IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

Why would you put a business in that area? Honestly? I could see taking advantage of the low costs for property and then work a deal with the local gov't for tax relief. At that point though, you probably wouldn't put something that you have to rely on local consumers to sustain you. You might be able to use the local workforce though.

 

[atlkvb]

Because you are comparing apples to oranges. Private schools do not have to take the state standardized tests and all the red tape like public schools. They can skew those numbers easily.

You didn't say anything about those factors being the reasons the Public schools were failing. I assumed the same factors you gave in your original post about why Public schools fail in inner cities, and offered no other excuses, only the question to you why the Private schools succeed under the same socio economic factors you cited as reasons the Public schools fail.

Now you're trying to say the Private schools have an advantage in the same run down areas the Public schools operate in?

Amazing.

Anything except the obvious fact that you can't admit Government schools fail because Government can't run them efficiently.

 

[MountaineerWV]

You didn't say anything about those factors being the reasons the Public schools were failing. I assumed the same factors you gave in your original post about why Public schools fail in inner cities, and offered no other excuses, only the question to you why the Private schools succeed under the same socio economic factors you cited as reasons the Public schools fail.

Now you're trying to say the Private schools have an advantage in the same run down areas the Public schools operate in?

Amazing.

Anything except the obvious fact that you can't admit Government schools fail because Government can't run them efficiently.

You said that they are "successful". What are you using to judge "success"? Because the tests and data that public schools are judged by are not the same as Private.

Private schools don't have to take the kids that "don't want to learn". So, walking the line becomes more important because Mommy and Daddy aren't going to allow you to get kicked out. Public schools have no other option. So, in these poverty areas kids "walk the line" more, and parental pressures are more, than in public schools. If parents are PAYING for the education, they will be more involved. If something is free, they don't care. Public schools are babysitting centers today.

 

[atlkvb]

And the cost is almost devastating

Because most Parents still choose to keep their kids home or they find other ways to Baby sit them (neighbors, family etc). The point is costs for running Public schools are through the roof also, and they have a captive audience. They just don't have competition, therefore no incentive to compete against other schools like day care centers do.

Some day care centers are very affordable, it depends on what kind of care the Parents both desire and can afford.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Anything except the obvious fact that you can't admit Government schools fail because Government can't run them efficiently.

If that's true, then why are the vast majority of public schools NOT FAILING? You act as if the majority of schools are failing, which is FALSE. Separate your opinion and hatred of government ran anything and you will see.

 

[atlkvb]

You said that they are "successful". What are you using to judge "success"? Because the tests and data that public schools are judged by are not the same as Private.

Choose any objective measure you wish. Reading scores, graduation rates, minimum competency. Any measurement. In poor areas or inner cities where Private schools operate against Public education, they outperform. Same socio economic factors. Here in Atlanta, APS (Atlanta Public schools) spends almost 10,000 per pupil and it has the worst overall student statistics in the entire State. Yet, there are many smaller Private schools that operate within the Metro area, many in predominantly Black areas at costs which are half that of the APS, and not only do they outperform the public schools, it's not even close.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/09...invested-educating-african-american-children/

http://jjie.org/2012/03/20/by-numbers-look-inside-atlanta-public-schools/

http://getschooled.blog.myajc.com/2...atlanta-is-aps-educating-poorest-of-the-poor/

 

[atlkvb]

If that's true, then why are the vast majority of public schools NOT FAILING? You act as if the majority of schools are failing, which is FALSE. Separate your opinion and hatred of government ran anything and you will see.

You brought up inner cities, you didn't specify all public schools. Even with that, the best suburban public schools can't hold a candle to the best private schools in affluent areas. Again, it's not even close.

 

[atlkvb]

Private schools don't have to take the kids that "don't want to learn".

Private schools in poorer areas many times take the kids Public schools insist can't learn, and turn them into scholars. Ever heard of this guy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

 

[atlkvb]

If parents are PAYING for the education, they will be more involved.

EXACTLY!!!!! Exactly!!!!! This is the promise behind vouchers and school choice. Empower the Parents which boomboom521 mentioned we need to do. I agree with him and you on this. When you put Parents in charge of their kid's education, and give them a financial incentive to see it through, they do respond and find better choices or demand better local schools. It's been proven over and over. Vouchers are very popular in the Black community.

However, Teacher's Unions and Democrats do not want to empower poor Parents with that choice option through vouchers. They'd rather control and dictate how to spend those education dollars, and they fail miserably because those aren't their kids (who attend private schools btw) and they're more concerned about keeping their jobs than making sure poor kids learn.

But a new Sheriff is in town for the next few years in Betsy DeVos who is the champion of poor and minority Parents with kids in failing Public schools. She's going to empower them, give them more options, choice, vouchers, block grant funds, joint ventures with private businesses, and a host of other innovative initiatives to help those Parents get for their kids the type of educational options affluent Families enjoy.

It'll be great for Black kids, and Hispanic kids, and Indian kids, and poor White families who can't afford to take their kids out of the failing Public schools of their areas, but who will now be able to shop around with their vouchers and pick schools that are offering their kids a chance to learn, grow, and succeed.

 

[Boomboom521]

EXACTLY!!!!! Exactly!!!!! This is the promise behind vouchers and school choice. Empower the Parents which boomboom521 mentioned we need to do. I agree with him and you on this. When you put Parents in charge of their kid's education, and give them a financial incentive to see it through, they do respond and find better choices or demand better local schools. It's been proven over and over. Vouchers are very popular in the Black community.

However, Teacher's Unions and Democrats do not want to empower poor Parents with that choice option through vouchers. They'd rather control and dictate how to spend those education dollars, and they fail miserably because those aren't their kids (who attend private schools btw) and they're more concerned about keeping their jobs than making sure poor kids learn.

But a new Sheriff is in town for the next few years in Betsy DeVoss who is the champion of poor and minority Parents with kids in failing Public schools. She's going to empower them, give them more options, choice, vouchers, block grant funds, joint ventures with private businesses, and a host of other innovative initiatives to help those Parents get for their kids the type of educational options affluent Families enjoy.

It'll be great for Black kids, and Hispanic kids, and Indian kids, and poor White families who can't afford to take their kids out of the failing Public schools of their areas, but who will now be able to shop around with their vouchers and pick schools that are offering their kids a chance to learn, grow, and succeed.

I said empower the administrators to evaluate and remove teachers

 

[mule_eer]

I'll bet the list of failing Public schools is a lot longer, and deeper.

Depends where you are looking. De Voss has had her hand in things in Michigan, and many charter schools in that state are under performing public schools. That's with the public schools not being any kind of stars either.

 

[atlkvb]

Depends where you are looking. De Voss has had her hand in things in Michigan, and many charter schools in that state are under performing public schools. That's with the public schools not being any kind of stars either.

If you could, can you please link me to where this comparison has been been explained? I don't doubt you, but it's just hard for me to understand how a charter school set up specifically to replace a failing public school under performs even the worse inner city Public school? I'd just like to see for myself what the mitigating circumstances were, how long it (charter school) was in operation, what its charter was, how it was funded etc to better understand how/why it failed?

 

[atlkvb]

[QUOTE="Boomboom521, post: 1426581, member: 14642"]I said empower the administrators to evaluate and remove teachers[/QUOTE]

Well OK then sure boomer, that too. Matter of fact I think I mentioned in one of my other posts in this thread that I'd favor providing administrators more flexibility making decisions about firing or hiring, without resistance from the Teacher Unions. However even under that scenario, who then monitors the administrators?

Here in Atlanta, recently there was an entire scandal involving Teachers erasing and then changing the answers of students on standardized achievement tests. It was done ostensibly to improve test scores & protect teacher pay scales and/or qualify them for bonuses along with additional Federal school funding. The point is it was school administrators themselves who were directing the scheme, and threatening teachers who tried to blow the whistle!

The Atlanta Journal Constitution did a whole expose on the racket, and following several investigations afterward many teachers and administrators who were caught were fired, fined, prosecuted and in some cases jailed.

So I'm not sure I'm totally willing to trust them either when it comes to doing what's ultimately best for the kids, especially when Unions are involved. We need combination Parent/Teacher panels (much like how my Son's virtual Charter school was run) to hold everyone accountable. Administrators, teachers, parents, and students.

http://www.ajc.com/news/school-test-scores/

 

[dave]

Because you are comparing apples to oranges. Private schools do not have to take the state standardized tests and all the red tape like public schools. They can skew those numbers easily.

That is not true.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Is it me, or does atlkvb act a awful lot like Neil??? Hmm.....


And you will NEVER convince me that charter schools will improve anything. Sorry. I will stand by my kids' teachers, and what they are doing. It is easy for someone like you to blame the schools, which ultimately means blaming the teachers, without knowing what they are dealing with.

 

[atlkvb]

Is it me, or does atlkvb act a awful lot like Neil??? Hmm.....


And you will NEVER convince me that charter schools will improve anything. Sorry. I will stand by my kids' teachers, and what they are doing. It is easy for someone like you to blame the schools, which ultimately means blaming the teachers, without knowing what they are dealing with.

Listen MountaineerWV, you can continue to excuse the overall record of poor performance for the vast majority of Public schools when they're measured against almost any other educational option. As I said in this thread, I'm not by default against Public education. I am against leaving that only up to the Government. School choice funded through educational vouchers does not eliminate Public schools (my Son's virtual charter was a Public school that worked) however they do encourage Public schools to reform, innovate, and ultimately preform to deliver better results through competition.

In much the same way Government Unions, the ACA, the VA, the SSA, or any other Government run monopolies do not allow for freedom of choice or subject themselves to competitive cost saving options for those utilizing their services, Government run schools not challenged by competitive operations through choice by Parents and students will continue to perform poorly relative to other available options.

Without competition, they will continue to rob our Children while draining the public treasury because they simply are inefficient and incapable of ever self correcting without competitive pressure because they exist primarily to perpetuate or grow only their own existence at taxpayer expense.

They and the Unions who run them do not ultimately care for students, or patients, or retirees, or even we taxpayers. They ultimately only care about their jobs, or their power (in many cases political) and in the end only their continued unrestrained ability to promote more of both.

 

[Boomboom521]

[QUOTE="Boomboom521, post: 1426581, member: 14642"]I said empower the administrators to evaluate and remove teachers

Well OK then sure boomer, that too. Matter of fact I think I mentioned in one of my other posts in this thread that I'd favor providing administrators more flexibility making decisions about firing or hiring, without resistance from the Teacher Unions. However even under that scenario, who then monitors the administrators?

Here in Atlanta, recently there was an entire scandal involving Teachers erasing and then changing the answers of students on standardized achievement tests. It was done ostensibly to improve test scores & protect teacher pay scales and/or qualify them for bonuses along with additional Federal school funding. The point is it was school administrators themselves who were directing the scheme, and threatening teachers who tried to blow the whistle!

The Atlanta Journal Constitution did a whole expose on the racket, and following several investigations afterward many teachers and administrators who were caught were fired, fined, prosecuted and in some cases jailed.

So I'm not sure I'm totally willing to trust them either when it comes to doing what's ultimately best for the kids, especially when Unions are involved. We need combination Parent/Teacher panels (much like how my Son's virtual Charter school was run) to hold everyone accountable. Administrators, teachers, parents, and students.

http://www.ajc.com/news/school-test-scores/[/QUOTE]
Locally elected school board officials

 

[dave]

Is it me, or does atlkvb act a awful lot like Neil??? Hmm.....

Its just you, you racist piece of ****.

 

[atlkvb]

Its just you, you racist piece of ****.

He doesn't like me because I'm Black Dave? That can't be... I thought Liberals loved everybody right? Even Blacks....even if they're Christian and Conservative right?

Surely you jest!

 

[TarHeelEer]

And you will NEVER convince me that charter schools will improve anything. Sorry. I will stand by my kids' teachers

Blah blah blah. Open minded liberals.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Listen MountaineerWV, you can continue to excuse the overall record of poor performance for the vast majority of Public schools when they're measured against almost any other educational option. As I said in this thread, I'm not by default against Public education. I am against leaving that only up to the Government. School choice funded through educational vouchers does not eliminate Public schools (my Son's virtual charter was a Public school that worked) however they do encourage Public schools to reform, innovate, and ultimately preform to deliver better results through competition.

In much the same way Government Unions, the ACA, the VA, the SSA, or any other Government run monopolies do not allow for freedom of choice or subject themselves to competitive cost saving options for those utilizing their services, Government run schools not challenged by competitive operations through choice by Parents and students will continue to perform poorly relative to other available options.

Without competition, they will continue to rob our Children while draining the public treasury because they simply are inefficient and incapable of ever self correcting without competitive pressure because they exist primarily to perpetuate or grow only their own existence at taxpayer expense.

They and the Unions who run them do not ultimately care for students, or patients, or retirees, or even we taxpayers. They ultimately only care about their jobs, or their power (in many cases political) and in the end only their continued unrestrained ability to promote more of both.

You have a lot of animosity towards unions. And, again, you put out there a lot of OPINION, not facts. You say the "vast majority" of public schools are failing. Ummm, no they are not. And our children are not a "game", like Monopoly. It's not about "competition". If a child wants to learn, they can learn at ANY public school. The education is there for them. Your thoughts are only to put down something that you do not have knowledge about. You said your child did not graduate from a public school. Yet, you are full of "facts" about them. My children go to a public school, and it's one that isn't at the top of the state list according to the ridiculous standardized testing measures. However, my children are achieving greatly....in the top 90 percentile in the nation. How could that be? I wonder......at a "poor" performing school? No....can't happen.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Blah blah blah. Open minded liberals.

About as open-minded as you are. [thumbsup]

 

[dave]

About as open-minded as you are. [thumbsup]

Your next intelligent thought will be your first.

 

[Boomboom521]

You have a lot of animosity towards unions. And, again, you put out there a lot of OPINION, not facts. You say the "vast majority" of public schools are failing. Ummm, no they are not. And our children are not a "game", like Monopoly. It's not about "competition". If a child wants to learn, they can learn at ANY public school. The education is there for them. Your thoughts are only to put down something that you do not have knowledge about. You said your child did not graduate from a public school. Yet, you are full of "facts" about them. My children go to a public school, and it's one that isn't at the top of the state list according to the ridiculous standardized testing measures. However, my children are achieving greatly....in the top 90 percentile in the nation. How could that be? I wonder......at a "poor" performing school? No....can't happen.

He has a LOT of animosity towards anything democrat or liberal. Don't get fooled into thinking he is open minded about anything. He lumps all liberals together, and rails about how we want to extinguish personal freedoms. He also thinks that business solves every problem we could ever have.

 

[Boomboom521]

Your next intelligent thought will be your first.

Really Dave, you do a lot of attacking and name calling.

 

[dave]

Really Dave, you do a lot of attacking and name calling.

There are a lot of fuking morons here saying ridiculous stuff that deserves to be mocked. I am fair.

 

[Boomboom521]

There are a lot of fuking morons here saying ridiculous stuff that deserves to be mocked. I am fair.

Attack what they say then.....and then call them idiots

 

[Boomboom521]

Attack what they say then.....and then call them idiots

I'm on here to learn and get different perspectives....name calling I get watching kids

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

I'm on here to learn and get different perspectives....name calling I get watching kids

I don't agree with your first part, unless you consider learning as studiying the conservative like you're Jane Fossi.

 

[bornaneer]

He has a LOT of animosity towards anything republican or conservative. Don't get fooled into thinking he is open minded about anything. He lumps all Republicans together, and rails about how they want to extinguish personal freedoms.

I've made the corrections.......Next.

 

[Boomboom521]

I've made the corrections.......Next.

I'm actually open to republican and conservative ideals. But if that doesn't come across as I discuss issues, maybe it's less than I thought.