Ellis Johnson article mentioning State....
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"There was a stretch for 10 or 15 years in the SEC when the defensive fronts got so big and so fast that the offenses couldn't move the football," Johnson said. "But the spread theory is like having a 12th man on the field.</p>
"That makes it difficult to run your blitz schemes and your zone pressures to disrupt the passing game and still be sound versus the option. Speed is the key to being able to handle all that stuff."</p>
I continues to baffle me how Croom couldn't figure out "hey, let me ask Ellis what is the hardest thing he has to get ready for, because he is kicking our offense's *** in practice."</p>It's so simple to me.
"That makes it difficult to run your blitz schemes and your zone pressures to disrupt the passing game and still be sound versus the option. Speed is the key to being able to handle all that stuff."</p>
I continues to baffle me how Croom couldn't figure out "hey, let me ask Ellis what is the hardest thing he has to get ready for, because he is kicking our offense's *** in practice."</p>It's so simple to me.
is everybody on defense is going to start going after faster players and making high school safeties into LB's, high school LB's into DE's.
Then the offenses are going to go back to power football and try to run over all of the small defenses.
Then the offenses are going to go back to power football and try to run over all of the small defenses.
EVERYBODY is doing the spread, which requires speed to get to the corner. MState is playing power football, and I think this may be the way the Bulldogs can compete in the SEC.
I saw this last year in the Auburn game. Auburn's defense was very fast, but we were pounding them until Christian Ducre scored the game-winning touchdown.</p>
Mississippi State will never have an offensive juggernaut. However, the power football is a change of pace from what everybody else is running, the offense is closer to what the pros run (which may attract prospects), takes time off the clock, and wears down an opponent.</p>
I saw this last year in the Auburn game. Auburn's defense was very fast, but we were pounding them until Christian Ducre scored the game-winning touchdown.</p>
Mississippi State will never have an offensive juggernaut. However, the power football is a change of pace from what everybody else is running, the offense is closer to what the pros run (which may attract prospects), takes time off the clock, and wears down an opponent.</p>
Since when was Ellis game-planning for our offense? But I understand what you're saying. I imagine during the rare times we go Ones on Ones, the defense had the hardest time with our running game -- our bread and butter. I really doubt Croom ignored what worked in practice and what didn't. When things got tight, we always leaned on Dixon and Ducre.
Being in the NFL for so long, I doubt Croom had an idea about any offense other than what he saw in the NFL. Would not surprise me if the first time he saw it was vs WVU. Even then, it takes alot more than just watching the offense and getting advice from your DC to know how to teach and implement the offense. I don't think McCorvey has been anywhere they ran a spread/innovative offense either. Which is why they visited other schools this summer.
Like with his recruiting, he will eventually figure it out.
Like with his recruiting, he will eventually figure it out.
Although, I kind of like having the best of all worlds. If I were the coach at MSU, or anywhere else, I would run a pro style offense like the WCO, more and then run some spread 4-5 WR sets. It would be a cross between Norm Chow and June Jones.
...and Croom said as much at media days.
Plus, we're not going to get enough skill players to compete with the Floridas and Alabamas of the world. We are better off having a strong running game, good defense and special teams. It's how we win at Mississippi State. If we ran the spread, we'd probably look about like Memphis.
Plus, we're not going to get enough skill players to compete with the Floridas and Alabamas of the world. We are better off having a strong running game, good defense and special teams. It's how we win at Mississippi State. If we ran the spread, we'd probably look about like Memphis.
"If we ran the spread, we'd probably look about like Memphis. "
We could only wish to look like Memphis on offense. Having solid special teams and defense have NOTHING to do with running the spread and becoming a better offensive team. Why cant you understand this?
Let me repeat: "Running the spread and becoming better on offense, will not make our defense and special teams any worse. Getting more 1st downs, racking up more yards, and scoring more points will only make Pegues and crew better"- Coach 34
We could only wish to look like Memphis on offense. Having solid special teams and defense have NOTHING to do with running the spread and becoming a better offensive team. Why cant you understand this?
Let me repeat: "Running the spread and becoming better on offense, will not make our defense and special teams any worse. Getting more 1st downs, racking up more yards, and scoring more points will only make Pegues and crew better"- Coach 34
The clock is a big part of that. Having a solid running game runs clock. If you don't score, but pin them deep, you have put pressure on their offense while running clock and shortening the game. At Mississippi State, shortening the game is usually a good thing. We don't like to get in "track meets" with Florida and LSU, because we don't have the horses to run with those teams and we never will, no matter what scheme we are running. See Sherrill, Jackie W. It's how he won when he won. Good offensive line, good back, good defense, good special teams = winning football at arguably the 2nd or 3rd toughest place to win in the conference.
I don't have a problem running the spread option, except that you are running the risk of getting your quarterback killed. And we don't exactly have a line of quarterbacks that we can plug in, typically. And if you are throwing a lot out of the spread, then you are much more turnover prone, and you are lengthening the game. In short, you are inviting a track meet.
In general, I don't care if we are running the WCO, the wishbone, the spread, or the A-11. I am in favor of fielding a good to great defense, solid special teams, and a run-first offense that is able to control the flow of the game. That's how you win at Mississippi State.
I don't have a problem running the spread option, except that you are running the risk of getting your quarterback killed. And we don't exactly have a line of quarterbacks that we can plug in, typically. And if you are throwing a lot out of the spread, then you are much more turnover prone, and you are lengthening the game. In short, you are inviting a track meet.
In general, I don't care if we are running the WCO, the wishbone, the spread, or the A-11. I am in favor of fielding a good to great defense, solid special teams, and a run-first offense that is able to control the flow of the game. That's how you win at Mississippi State.
Of course he knows field position. he was an all world high school football coach until he decided to go sling condoms
MaxwellSmart said:
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That if you save clothes long enough, they will come back in style, eventually.
Quit putting Alabama on some kind of pedestal. They aren't an elite program, haven't been since the early 90's. UF, I understand. Bama, No.
...LSU. The point remains. We're not going to keep up with any of them in skill position recruiting over any length of time.
I think there are athletes at skill positions in Mississippi. Whether MSU takes advantage of it is another question.
what you fail to understand is if you are moving the football more, getting more 1st Downs, and scoring more...wait, here it comes...almost here...- "YOU ARE WINNING THE GODDAMN FIELD POSITION BATTLE"</p>
Out of the spread you can have a solid running game- ask WV and Auburn (you did watch the Peach Bowl right?)
Also, we dont have to incorporate alot of option to get QB's hurt. You adjust the spread to your personnel.
We dont have to have the skill people of Fla or LSU to run it- it is an equalizer. But i'll tell you this- how has lining up in the I and mashing on the LSU's worked out for us? You better have phenomenal skill people if you intend to get in the I and move the football on the LSU's and Fla's. Dont expect us to score 10 points on LSU this year either.
What makes the spread so difficult to defend?
It forces the defense to defend the entire field. I've said it repeatedly. Ellis said it in the article. At some point Waterboy, this has got to sink in for you.</p>
Out of the spread you can have a solid running game- ask WV and Auburn (you did watch the Peach Bowl right?)
Also, we dont have to incorporate alot of option to get QB's hurt. You adjust the spread to your personnel.
We dont have to have the skill people of Fla or LSU to run it- it is an equalizer. But i'll tell you this- how has lining up in the I and mashing on the LSU's worked out for us? You better have phenomenal skill people if you intend to get in the I and move the football on the LSU's and Fla's. Dont expect us to score 10 points on LSU this year either.
What makes the spread so difficult to defend?
It forces the defense to defend the entire field. I've said it repeatedly. Ellis said it in the article. At some point Waterboy, this has got to sink in for you.</p>
I think we have a very dull offense, but we beat Ole Miss in the last 8 minutes of the game by playing the numbers on field posistion the entire game. O got frustrated & went for the death blow, & instead we won the game by jumping on opportunity & getting a 50 yard field.
just a simple explination will be fine
"O got frustrated & went for the death blow"
Mississippi punts right there and they win the game. The momentum changed, not to mention us getting the ball on the 50.
My question to you is- why should we always have to wait till the end or rely on the special teams and defense to bail us out? Why shouldnt that defensive TD cause us to go up by 21?
Mississippi punts right there and they win the game. The momentum changed, not to mention us getting the ball on the 50.
My question to you is- why should we always have to wait till the end or rely on the special teams and defense to bail us out? Why shouldnt that defensive TD cause us to go up by 21?
I just stated what everyone else on this bored seems to realize, but to answer your question, my feelings are that we are a team that had to re-learn how to win, & no matter how good a team you think you are, the cards can quickly fall in another direction ( see us vs. Kentucky, Auburn). Our offense didn't do squat for 3.5 quarters against Ole Miss, but since football is a team sport that requires all facets of the game to be playing well (offense, defense, special teams), the egg bowl ended up being a classic example of how winning in 2 phases of the game can open up the stagnated aspect of your team (offense in the egg bowl) to sieze an opportunity created by special teams or the defense & capitalize on it.
but back to the original question, since you know so damn much, explain your statement
Why don't you change your name to Condom34.
but back to the original question, since you know so damn much, explain your statement
Ole Miss won the field posistion battle for 3.5 quarters. Going into the 4 quarter they had 15+ more 1st downs than us, they were moving the ball well on us, & scoring more on us........so what I should take from all of this, I will answere that, your an dubmass
Why don't you change your name to Condom34.
you make about as much 17'ing sense as the Waterboy...
The Waterboy talked about how our offense is the only way State can win. Ball control, shorten the game, let the defense keep you in it.
What I talked about was having a better offense...it was comparing being a spread offense that would move the ball with more regularity, attaining more first downs, and more scoring opportunities...only a moron such as yourself and Waterboy would think that is stupid...sounds like your daddy should have used a condom instead
The Waterboy talked about how our offense is the only way State can win. Ball control, shorten the game, let the defense keep you in it.
What I talked about was having a better offense...it was comparing being a spread offense that would move the ball with more regularity, attaining more first downs, and more scoring opportunities...only a moron such as yourself and Waterboy would think that is stupid...sounds like your daddy should have used a condom instead
why do you assume that the spread would work better than what we are doing now production wise? We would still have the same QB, o-line, WR's and RB's and it's not like running the spread is going to make Carroll's arm stronger, and AD has enough problems not going outside that a spread would seem to make him want to get to the outside even more. Our o-line would still be average and our WR's would still be question marks. Not to mention we would still have Woody calling the plays, who I seriously doubt would all of a sudden become Rich Rodriguez just because we installed the spread. That would be as logical as someone assuming that McCorvey would become Bill Walsh for installing the WCO.
You act like the spread is some magic bullet and it's not. And you can say "Well we won the Liberty Bowl because Carroll told Croom to run it for two plays", but part of the reason it worked was because UCF wasn't expecting us to do that, so that's hardly conclusive evidence.
Fact is here is what our offense would look like if we ran the spread:
1st down: Lead draw to Dixon.
2nd down: Option left/right pitch to Dixon
3rd down: Throw incomplete to Jaymel Smith
4th down: punt
Contrast that with the WCO:
1st down: Running play up the middle with Dixon
2nd down: Running play up the outside/toss sweep with Dixon
3rd down: Play action sack/incompletion
4th down punt
Contrast that to the wishbone under Bellard:
1st down: FB dive
2nd down: Option pitch left/right
3rd down: Incomplete pass
4th down: punt
Do you see a trend here?
JWS
1st down: Dontae tiptoes to the line falls down
2nd down: Dontae tiptoes to the line falls down
3rd down: Fant has head ripped off/incompletion
4th down: punt
Run and shoot
1st down: Incompletion/INT
2nd down: screen pass to slot WR for no gain
3rd down: Incompletion/INT
4th down: punt
You act like the spread is some magic bullet and it's not. And you can say "Well we won the Liberty Bowl because Carroll told Croom to run it for two plays", but part of the reason it worked was because UCF wasn't expecting us to do that, so that's hardly conclusive evidence.
Fact is here is what our offense would look like if we ran the spread:
1st down: Lead draw to Dixon.
2nd down: Option left/right pitch to Dixon
3rd down: Throw incomplete to Jaymel Smith
4th down: punt
Contrast that with the WCO:
1st down: Running play up the middle with Dixon
2nd down: Running play up the outside/toss sweep with Dixon
3rd down: Play action sack/incompletion
4th down punt
Contrast that to the wishbone under Bellard:
1st down: FB dive
2nd down: Option pitch left/right
3rd down: Incomplete pass
4th down: punt
Do you see a trend here?
JWS
1st down: Dontae tiptoes to the line falls down
2nd down: Dontae tiptoes to the line falls down
3rd down: Fant has head ripped off/incompletion
4th down: punt
Run and shoot
1st down: Incompletion/INT
2nd down: screen pass to slot WR for no gain
3rd down: Incompletion/INT
4th down: punt
Coach34 and Patdog- "Dixon is ok, but not a great back. His production was lacking for someone that had 287 carries last year"
Sixpack Sheep- "We faced 8-9 men in the box all year. Predictable playcalling...blah blah blah"
Fact- against the spread, you cant keep 8-9 men in the box. Therefore, your OL doesnt have to be as good
Fact- you dont have to have a strong arm to work the spread..lots of shorter throws and screens
Fact- you can scheme to get your best WR in mismatches against LB's and SS's and away from CB's...
All it takes is some imagination Todd. And team after team is beginning to incorporate it in their offense. But nope, not us...we want to impose our will and run against 8-9 man fronts
Sixpack Sheep- "We faced 8-9 men in the box all year. Predictable playcalling...blah blah blah"
Fact- against the spread, you cant keep 8-9 men in the box. Therefore, your OL doesnt have to be as good
Fact- you dont have to have a strong arm to work the spread..lots of shorter throws and screens
Fact- you can scheme to get your best WR in mismatches against LB's and SS's and away from CB's...
All it takes is some imagination Todd. And team after team is beginning to incorporate it in their offense. But nope, not us...we want to impose our will and run against 8-9 man fronts
His production so far has been very mediocre. But I do think he has the potential to be an outstanding back. And I do believe he's going to start showing more of that potential this year and next. Hopefully, Croom's comment in Veazey's blog is a hint of what's to come.
Coach34 said:
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We WANT him to run inside. Nowhere did I say that he was an average back, just that we don't need him to run outside because that is not his strength, which is exactly what he would be doing a lot in a spread option. I don't know where you made that up from, but that's not what I was saying.
And the highlighted part is part of the problem with ANY offense we run, and that includes the spread. More or less, I'm saying that I have no confidence in McCorvey, even we did run the Tecmo Bowl offense.
As far as your facts:
Fact 1- I guarantee you that if we can not stretch the field vertically, there's gonna be 9 men in the box, I don't care if you are running the run and shoot. In fact with a run based offense like the spread option, it makes even more sense to put nine in the box to help take away the run because there will be no need for the safeties to help deep.
Fact 2- You don't have a strong arm to run a lot of offenses- Most Bama QB's running the wishbone under the Bear, Joe Montana and Steve Young running the WCO in San Francisco. The key is not arm strength but accuracy.
Fact 3- Same as above. You can get the same mismatches in the WCO, the run and shoot, and even the wishbone. I remember the 49ers had it where a LB was covering Jerry Rice one time when they beat the Cowboys.
You did however have a blind squirrel finds nut moment when you talked about imagination. THAT has been our problem no matter what offense we have run through the years. Watson Brown was by far the most creative OC we have ever had, and that was almost 20 years ago. We have had a chronic problem of poor recruiting on the offensive side of the ball, poor player development, and poor coaching. Croom needs to let go of McCorvey and find someone that can run the WCO if that's what he must run or heck, hire someone that can run ANY offense. Woody sucks.
Fact 1- I guarantee you that if we can not stretch the field vertically, there's gonna be 9 men in the box, I don't care if you are running the run and shoot. In fact with a run based offense like the spread option, it makes even more sense to put nine in the box to help take away the run because there will be no need for the safeties to help deep.
A little football 101 for you Todd. If you go 4 wide you have 7 in the box. And that's playing straight up man. Most team"s are gonna play a safety. That's now 6 in the box. That's why it's called the spread.
I don't care if you send a wideout out wide who has no arms, somebody is gonna go out and cover him.
It's alot easier to run against 6 than 8 or 9.
You now have 7 playing against 6.
5 linemen to block 5 .
! defender to defend the QB and RB.
A little football 101 for you Todd. If you go 4 wide you have 7 in the box. And that's playing straight up man. Most team"s are gonna play a safety. That's now 6 in the box. That's why it's called the spread.
I don't care if you send a wideout out wide who has no arms, somebody is gonna go out and cover him.
It's alot easier to run against 6 than 8 or 9.
You now have 7 playing against 6.
5 linemen to block 5 .
! defender to defend the QB and RB.
And if you can't stretch it vertically, you'd damn sure better spread it horizontally. Actually, you're better spreading it horizontally anyway, but especially if you can't spread it vertically. If we run the spread and defenses put 8 defenders in the box, Wesley Carroll would be an All-American, even with our ****** receiving corps.
What are we really talking about? I may be over generalizing, but as I understand it, there are two extremes to the spread: 1) The spread option rushing attack, most often associated with West Virginia/Rodriguez, and 2) The spread that's run by Kentucky and Texas Tech, where you line up with 5 wides, throw short passes alot, and use no huddle alot. Nobody seems to argue that running the spread option exposes your quarterback to injury, and it's fairly gimmicky. Teams will figure out how to stop that, and West Virginia has had success doing it primarily because a) very few other teams were doing it, and b) they have two Heisman trophy candidates in their backfield, with unbelievable speed.
As far as the pass heavy spread, that is what lengthens the game and exposes your team to turnovers. When Coach says that what an offense does has no effect on the defense and other aspects of the game, he proves his idiocy. That type of attack is great if it works: if your team never throws a pick or drops a pass, but it's also extremely risky because you are putting the ball up for grabs, AND you are lengthening the game because you are going to inevitably have some incomplete passes.
In short, with the history of our personnel that we have had at Mize St., I don't want our quarterbacks running the option all day (because we typically don't have the speed and/or depth to do that), and I don't want our quarterbacks putting the ball up in the air (because we typically hurt ourselves with turnovers). If you want to put 5 wides out there and run Dixon, that's fine, but as Todd said, you can do that in the WCO, Spread, Run and Shoot, whatever. You don't have to change schemes to do that. At the end of the day, no matter what offense you run, if you can't make teams respect your passing attack, you are going to have safeties selling out and cornerbacks crashing in until you burn them: 5 wide or a stacked I. So when we can't throw the ball, and we are going to have to run it, I'd just as soon have an extra tight end or fullback in the game instead of hoping Co-Eric Riley can block his man, because the defense is coming anyway.
Coach, you act like the spread is the magic bullet. It's not. We have coaches that have shown very little offensive creativity, and we have an offense that has shown very little in the way of execution. If that's going to be the case, give me a conservative offense that doesn't get you beat all day.
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And as far as LSU goes, we are climbing the hill with them. We lost an ugly game last year, but everybody that went to that game could see that they were not handling us like they have in the past. Their offensive line was not pushing our defensive line around, and if we had been able to have any kind of passing game, we could've moved the ball on them. Instead, we all know what happened. But we were only down a turnover aided 10-0 going in to the half until the stupid decision made by Croom to go for it, and then game over.
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And, if you are putting the ball up for grabs more, you are throwing more interceptions and giving up large chunks of field position. And you are throwing more incomplete passes, stopping the clock more, lengthening the game. In short, it's great if it works, but it's alot riskier if it doesn't. Hence the safe, conservative approach that helped us to 8 wins last year. Our offense left a whole helluva lot to be desired, but they didn't get us beat like Henig did in a couple of games the year before.
<span style="font-weight: normal;">And how do you suggest we do this? Run 5 wides out there and give it to Dixon off tackle? Fine, but you don't have change your scheme to do that. You and I agree that we don't need Carroll getting every other carry against SEC linebackers. I'll concede that we could've been pretty good running the spread option with Conner and Norwood, but that is the only time that I can think of since Jackie was hired that we had the personnel to do that. Maybe 1991's team with Sleepy and Kenny Roberts, which ran alot of option anyway.
And as far as LSU goes, we are climbing the hill with them. We lost an ugly game last year, but everybody that went to that game could see that they were not handling us like they have in the past. Their offensive line was not pushing our defensive line around, and if we had been able to have any kind of passing game, we could've moved the ball on them. Instead, we all know what happened. But we were only down a turnover aided 10-0 going in to the half until the stupid decision made by Croom to go for it, and then game over.
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