Geoff Collins midseason grade...

[Irondawg]

campshelby is right - the offenses we are playing are much better than last year - especially LSU and Auburn. I'm not saying the guy is a Top 10 DC, but this year i do see more times where players are in positions to make plays. We're simply just not making a ton of them.

Auburn game was fluky as all getout. The score when Cox stubmles and they score when a QB completes a pass to himself. none of that is on the DC. And as much as i want to fault the result at the time I don't think the last drive on auburn was that bad a gameplan. The QB had a scattershot arm and we had blown several coverages that left guys open deep and the QB was a running threat if you blitzed and missed. Most DC's would take the chance that the errant QB will make a poor throw or two and you either get the stop or he throws a pick. Obviously didn't work out that way b/c dude threw a few darts. Hindsight 20/20. you'll notice he learned a bit form that and the last drive of the BG game he was bring blitzes almost every down.

LSU - we missed some tackles on D on some of the big runs and their WR just went up and made some plays a lot of times against good coverage. But a lot of times (at least early) our guys were in position to make plays. The only thing i really don't like is that we keep giving up scores right before halftime and we haven't figured out the zone read to Autry/Skinner's side.

 

[Shamoan]

All of our talent is very young dude. The talent I was talking about from last year was senior laden. The talent you are talking about is first or 2nd year players for the most part. Again, I don't think Collins is great, but we have had an abnormal amount of injuries in the secondary (which lost 2 great corners from last year), and a lot of our 2 deep is extremely young. You also aren't considering the fact tht Oklahoma state is way better on offense than any non conference team we played last year, auburn is 19 trillion times better on offense this year, and Lsu is way better on offense this year as well. Everyone in the sec that we play this year is better than they were last year. Collins is an average coordinator, but I think he's a little better than Wilson.

At the start of the season we started 2 seniors and a whopping 7 juniors, many of which were redshirted. You cannot point to what is happening on the field as inexperience. You are SERIOUSLY overestimating our inexperience as all but 2 starters are upperclassmen.

Oklahoma state was outscored by one of our non conference opponents (troy) and Wilson STILL has better stats. Additionally, the quality of our gator bowl opponent negates any lingering doubt about strength of schedule. As a final point, we have played 3 creampuffs, 2 good teams (one of which we should have beaten) and a great team. HALF of the schedule is a 17ing joke and another 17% of the schedule thus far is comprised of a game our fearless leader BLEW in the matter of a minute and a half as auburn marched 82 yards down the field to expose just how incompetent he was.

In summary, the vast majority of our defense is comprised of upperclassmen EVEN WITH the injuries. Half our schedule thus far is made of teams that are not very good, and one of the 3 games amongst bcs conference teams he blew a lead in the matter of a few seconds. Another was a total blowout in which we let our opponent score more points against a bcs team than they had in nearly two decades, and the final game (the first of the season) our defense proved itself totally incapable of making adjustments. We had zero adjustment to the diamond formation and more concerningly, Collins was quoted as saying that he had never seen footage of the diamond formation...a formation that had been at osu since the time Dana holgorsen brought it there in 2010.

If that is not the epitome of incompetence, nothing is.

If anything, people making excuses for the on-field shitshow are helping to build a case against him.

 

[thunderclap]

Thought we had a good start, but lately it looks a lot like last year...

C-

Edited to add: this grade would likely be higher IF OUR 17ING OFFENSE COULD SCORE IN THE SECOND HALF.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

Mrs. Wilson, I'm not saying that Coach Collins is a good defensive coordinator, I'm saying that I think he is marginally better than your husband. Are you trying to give Wilson credit for the gator bowl, because Collins was calling plays against a pretty good northwestern team that was 6 points away from the rose bowl? Mrs. Wilson, we have already shown you the injuries, and the people on our depth chart that are playing as upperclassmen right now are mainly 2 and 3 star athletes, not the 4 and 5 stars that you listed to try and prove that we have so much talent on defense. Also, a few of those "star" players have either been injured or eating cupcakes in the junction, not playing football. Chris Wilson was not good, and Collins looks to be similar, but I think he will end up being thought of as the better coordinator once he has a full deck to work with. And please stop trying to compare this year's schedule to last year's.

 

[patdog]

Other than the 3-and-out, MSU's offense ran enough plays to finish all its drives in scoring position. Not the offense's fault the kicker can't make a routine field goal. I'm not saying the offense was great by any means Saturday, but it did a better job than the defense did.

 

[NCDawg.sixpack]

C-

Agree with C-, primarily because we couldn't stop Auburn at the end when it really counted. Also, not too impressed with the defensive play against OSU, BGU, and LSU.

 

[Shamoan]

chris wilson sucked ***, so dont confuse my pointing out the fact that wilson did a better job as support for what he did....i just think its idiotic we fired a guy that sucked at his job only to hire someone that was worse. ive said that multiple times before. you are a little late to the party in that regard, as most of this has already been discussed. and btw, collins performance in the gator bowl brought wilson's scoring defense average DOWN even without the 7 points that russell gifted. semantics about sos are largely irrelevant when we are getting blown out by any team with a pulse or giving wins away in the matter of a few seconds with nearly a whole football field to go. you apparently agree with my larger point that collins = wilson. thats the whole point. whichever excuse is convenient to the lesser argument is of no consequence to me. and as chris wilsons wife (apparently, thats who i am) i will defend my herzbend as i see fit even if that includes comparing schedules.

the point of the whole damn thing is that collins is the same as wilson....a fact in which you agree. "Chris Wilson was not good, and Collins looks to be similar" my job is done here. im not going to fabricate inconsequential debates that were only conceived to make my point. and for the record, several excuses are allways less convincing than one.

 

[Shamoan]

im trying my best to ignore somebody that would rate collins' performance thus far as a B-, but i have failed in that regard.

auburn was NOT fluky....as a matter of fact, we are lucky as **** they didnt put up another 7 points when marshall overthrew that wr that didnt have anybody within 20 yards of him. its not like it happened once, or twice, or five times....which is a stretch of the word "fluky", it was happening all night and has been happening all season. we are starting to rely less on zone, so i am encouraged by that, but we need to get out of making zone our go-to defense on 3rd and long. we are inching that way, so maybe collins is starting to grasp the obvious. im not advocating that we do away with it totally, but a zone is worthless if you dont have the knowledge (from a players perspective) or talent to execute it correctly. we currently have neither.

im not even going to address a game where an offense scored 59 points on us. there simply is no need.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

Our offense gift wrapped northwestern 21 points. The defense played well in that game. That's the problem when you just look at stats. Strength of schedule matters, and so does injuries. If you think it doesn't then that's fine, but you're being ignorant. And similar does not mean exactly the same. You went on a rant calling people idiots for thinking Collins wasn't worse than Wilson, and your opinion is very premature and in the grand scheme probably wrong.

 

[121Josey]

Here's the numbers

Other than the 3-and-out, MSU's offense ran enough plays to finish all its drives in scoring position. Not the offense's fault the kicker can't make a routine field goal. I'm not saying the offense was great by any means Saturday, but it did a better job than the defense did.

I'm not seeing much difference here.

DRIVE TOTALS: MISSSTATE drive: 3 plays 7 yards, 01:46 MISSSTATE PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: MISSSTATE drive: 11 plays 47 yards, 05:49 MISSSTATE FGA (MISSED)
DRIVE TOTALS: MISSSTATE drive: 9 plays 54 yards, 04:31 MISSSTATE DOWNS
[[DRIVE TOTALS: MISSSTATE drive: 5 plays 16 yards, 01:12 MISSSTATE DOWNS]]


DRIVE TOTALS: BOWLGREEN drive: 10 plays 48 yards, 06:02 BOWLGREEN FGA (MISSED)
DRIVE TOTALS: BOWLGREEN drive: 7 plays 76 yards, 03:15 BOWLGREEN TD
DRIVE TOTALS: BOWLGREEN drive: 9 plays 33 yards, 04:16 BOWLGREEN DOWNS
DRIVE TOTALS: BOWLGREEN drive: 9 plays 38 yards, 03:06 BOWLGREEN DOWNS

 

[Shamoan]

northwestern converted 10 of 19 3rd down conversions, had 4 drives of over 40 yards. three of those 4 drives totaled 69 yards, 76 yards, and 74 yards for a 4 drive total of 20 points. we gave them 14 points, not 21. a pick 6 and a short field at 5 yards. They had 1 scoring drive that was less than 45 yards and that wasnt because of an offensive turnover, so im not sure where you are getting your extra td...i suspect its fabricated or pulled from a conveniently fuzzy recollection. the defense didnt play nearly well enough to win. we gave up over 50% on 3rd down conversions....they hit double digits.

if you are going to make an excuse at least be consistent with that excuse. it cant start at injuries, move to lack of nfl talent, moved to lack of senior leadership, then move again to lack of 4 and 5* senior leadership, and then morph into an irrelevant argument about sos....i mean, i guess you COULD make those arguments, but it doesnt place you in a very strong position when you keep arguing each and every excuse under the sun.

sorry you dont like my "rant". maybe you should continue to refer to me as mrs wilson....you seemed to think that was pretty clever, so by all means, continue that. people are not idiots because they disagree with me, they are idiots because they give a statistically poor coach a good grade when there has been nothing to substantiate it all while damning the coach that had better statistics whom most label as a buffoon. one coach cannot be considered good while the other is bad....they simply cannot coexist. i am merely pointing out that the "bad" coach is currently outshining the "good" coach. its not that difficult. as the season goes on, i suspect that my once unpopular opinion, which is now gaining some traction, will become the norm around here. with alabama, ole miss, texas a&m, and south carolina looming, we wont have anymore patsys to beat up on and the disappointing statistics will only get more disappointing. premature? perhaps, but im commenting on statistics that i view as having a disturbing trend...a trend that will surely get worse. only time will tell, but right now, things are leaning in my favor....and sadly, i dont want to be right on this issue....i wish i could be dead wrong.

chris wilson had a top 15 scoring defense two seasons ago, how did that work out for him? its the scheme. they were assistants together and co-coordinators together. is it really that shocking that they have the same ineffective zone-first philosophy? to anyone paying attention, it should not be.

and here you are starting to distance yourself from your prior claim "Chris Wilson was not good, and Collins looks to be similar". your words not mine.

 

[Shamoan]

and for ***** and giggles, go ahead and give us all your grade for collins. with so many posts already in this thread your interpretation of the job he is doing is conspicuously absent.

 

[RocketDawg]

I thought he did a good job when he was here. Might be a good choice if he wanted to come back and wouldn't bolt at the next dollar sign. Can't say that I blame him a lot for doubling his salary though, and going to Texas. Turned out well for Daryl Royal ....

 

[121Josey]

those werent wilsons stats vs jackson st, auburn, troy, usa, uk, tennessee, (the first 6), those were stats on the WHOLE YEAR including the bowl game, so pretending like its front-loaded to manipulate the data is not the case....games that included alabama, lsu, texas a&m, arkansas, ole miss, mtsu, and northwestern.

if those arent relevant statistics, the has NEVER been anything to qualify as such. its got absolutely ZERO to do with the current record. its about what we are giving up and if you think its going to get BETTER, you are in for a huge disappointment. with alabama, texas A&M, south carolina and ole miss looming, its going to get much worse statistically.

if someone is to give collins a B+, wilson would by default have to be at least an A-, which brings me to my larger point, Why in the hell did we run off a bad coach just to hire a WORSE coach as a replacement?

it was apparent to everyone that wilson was not a very good coach, but here we are halfway through the season and our defensive statistics are worse than our defensive statistics of the entire '12 season and we are still currently in the "cushy" part of the schedule. you cannot say that we made the right call with firing wilson and defend collins in the same breath. based off the performance expectations set last season, collins is half-way out the door because he is not surpassing the minimum expectations which got the prior coach fired...and the season is only going to get more difficult.

if you defend collins, explain to me why we fired wilson...because the statistics show he is the superior coach....and thats not even taking into account his performance during the '11 season.

keep in mind, WILSON had a top 30 total defense team (26th to be exact) at only 342 ypg, and a top 15 SCORING DEFENSE giving up 19.9 ppg during the ENTIRE '11 season....and if you recall, that was a difficult schedule: memphis, auburn, lsu, la tech, georgia, uab, south carolina, kentucky, ut martin, alabama, arkansas, ole miss, and wake.

right now....to me, it looks like we fired a coach that was in the top 25 and top 15 in some cases during half of his time with us only to hire a coach that cant crack the top 45 in those same defensive statistics.

Seriously Smalls? Wilson had a cupcake schedule. Collins first 6 games have been H-E-L-L! 5 out of 6 games have been against Top 50 offenses (and I woulddn't be surprised if OKSU creeps up in the Top 30 after their conference schedule)

Wilson had this team, minus CJ, plus Banks, Slay, Lawrence. Don't act like Wilson is some defensive genius.

#3 (#3) Texas A&M

13

3147

4114

1025

7261

7.08

558.5

<tbody>
</tbody>

#11 (#22)

Troy

12

2007

3978

966

5985

6.20

498.8

<tbody>
</tbody>

#18 (~#23 USCe)

Tennessee

12

1924

3787

890

5711

6.42

475.9

<tbody>
</tbody>

#31 (#43)

Alabama

14

3185

3052

898

6237

6.95

445.5

<tbody>
</tbody>

#46 (#55)

Mississippi

13

2262

3247

962

5509

5.73

423.8

<tbody>
</tbody>

#63 (N/A)

Northwestern

13

2932

2198

964

5130

5.32

394.6

<tbody>
</tbody>

#66 (~/#33 BGU)

Middle Tennessee

12

2120

2593

812

4713

5.80

392.8

<tbody>
</tbody>

#87 (#34)

LSU

13

2258

2607

883

4865

5.51

374.2

<tbody>
</tbody>

#106 (#49 OSU)

South Alabama

13

1606

2728

938

4334

4.62

333.4

<tbody>
</tbody>

#115 (#102)

Kentucky

12

1665

2115

790

3780

4.78

315.0

<tbody>
</tbody>

#118 (#28)

Auburn

12

1781

1879

695

3660

5.27

305.0

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[RocketDawg]

Maybe we should hire the Western Kentucky DC. He certainly is a fireball, and has a young and vigorous staff from what I saw. At least he was interested in the game.

 

[121Josey]

im trying my best to ignore somebody that would rate collins' performance thus far as a B-, but i have failed in that regard.

auburn was NOT fluky....as a matter of fact, we are lucky as **** they didnt put up another 7 points when marshall overthrew that wr that didnt have anybody within 20 yards of him. its not like it happened once, or twice, or five times....which is a stretch of the word "fluky", it was happening all night and has been happening all season. we are starting to rely less on zone, so i am encouraged by that, but we need to get out of making zone our go-to defense on 3rd and long. we are inching that way, so maybe collins is starting to grasp the obvious. im not advocating that we do away with it totally, but a zone is worthless if you dont have the knowledge (from a players perspective) or talent to execute it correctly. we currently have neither.

If you want to talk about "fluky" what about an injury timeout right before their final TD? If they don't have time to set-up that play, the games goes to OT.

im not even going to address a game where an offense scored 59 points on us. there simply is no need.

You must have missed the game when A&M put 693 yards on us but only scored 38 points. Although they only scored 24 in the first half, the stadium was 30% full at the half.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

No guy, I'm not changing the argument for Collins. There are multiple reasons that his defensive stats aren't as good a Wilson's defense at this point In the year and I have listed them all. Youve got your head so far up your *** talking about stats that you can't see why those stats are the way they are. Believe it or not, the things I mentioned make a huge difference. Apparently you think we have enough talent to play a tougher schedule, lose 4 nfl players from last year's team, have a rash of injuries on defense, and should still be able to vastly improve our stats.Well news flash guy, we don't.
Also, our defense played well enough to beat northwestern. I don't know what game you watched, but when your quarterback kills every single drive with a pic then you aren't going to win. I'm assuming Prescott was too injured to play more than a series. I don't know.
I give Collins a C. He's average. He has less talent on defense than the offenses he faces in our losses. We looked like **** last week on all sides of the ball. If he continues to put out this product when we don't have half the defense on the injured reserve, id expect him to be fired.

 

[Shamoan]

last year, we played the 5th, 13th, 26th, 44th, 49th, 52nd, 57th, 69th, 98th (ark), 110th (usa), 120th (uk), 122 (aub), and 126 (jsu)

Note: in both cases, the SWAC team was assigned a ranking of 126 as representative of the worst team in the fbs had they actually qualified for the fcs. i must assign them somewhere and since there are only 125 fbs opponents, they are a natural fit for 126th.

Average ranking of teams we played based on scoring offense during the 2012 season: 68.5 (891/13)

so far this season, we have played the 10th, 38th, 56th, 59th, 69th, and 126th (AS)

Average ranking of teams we played based on scoring offense during the 2013 season: 59.7 (358/6)

ok, so lets look at the number of points/ game between the 60th ranked scoring offense (an average of what collins is dealing with) and the 69th ranked scoring offense (an average of what wilson is dealing with):

during the 2012 season, the differential between the 60th and 69th ranked teams is 1.0 ppg (28.1 - 27.1 ppg)
during the 2013 season, the differential between the 60th and 69th ranked teams is 1.3 ppg (28.6 - 27.3 ppg)

they are within 9 positions of each other regarding AVERAGE opponent strength (as determined by the opponents average scoring offense) which is equivalent to one point per game.

the idea that the strength of schedules are wildly dissimilar and wilson had a huge advantage is nonsense...as a matter of fact, they are very comparable schedules as odd as it may seem. its because osu is ranked lower than you probably thought (38th in scoring offense), as are troy, auburn, and bowling green (56th, 59th, and 69th). in the paramater that really matters in judging the quality of an offense (how much they score) two (not 5) are in the top 50. essentially, we have two in the top 50, two in the bottom 60, and two somewhere in the middle.

i have never said that the schedule this year was not harder, rather, the difference was negligable. there is only one point per game difference between 60th and 69th. when you juxtapose the fact that wilson is averaging a little over 2 points better than collins in ppg surrendered, the 24.5 ppg under wilson when compared to the 26.2 is totally and utterly negligible. you can extrapolate (because the two are within 9 positions of each other regarding average opponents strength) that wilson would be a point higher in points surrendered and collins would be a point lower in points surrendered if the schedules were reversed.

wilson would be at 25.5 and collins would be at 25.2. If you actually assign the game collins coached to collins and not to wilson, things get shuffled a bit more where wilson gives up fewer points but his opponents average quality increases (from 69th). conversely, if you assign the 34 points of the gator bowl to wilson (thanks russell), his ppg go up while his opponents average quality increases (from 60th).

what does it all mean?
a) the disparity between our average sos is not as great as some would prefer we believe with regard to the best measurable paramater in determining the quality of an opponent (average rank of the teams you play with regard to how much they score)

b) these guys are cut from the exact same cloth. the difference is negligable. essentially, the nearly 2 points better wilson was doing does not allow collins to make up the 1 point gap that that separates the average offenses these guys are facing.

 

[Shamoan]

well, 38 points is no 59 points.....so maybe they are just pacing themselves. i wouldnt peg the stadium anywhere near 30% capacity at half. you are not very generous in your estimation.

your estimation skills suck. here is a video of the aTm game. @ the 13:13 mark, you can see the time on the clock, quarter etc and the stadium is at least 60% full with 8 min in the 3rd still left. and the score was 31-0. hell, there is even a sizable contingent of students in the ez bleachers at that point...sooo, yeah.

 

[Shamoan]

No guy, I'm not changing the argument for Collins. There are multiple reasons that his defensive stats aren't as good a Wilson's defense at this point In the year and I have listed them all. Youve got your head so far up your *** talking about stats that you can't see why those stats are the way they are. Believe it or not, the things I mentioned make a huge difference. Apparently you think we have enough talent to play a tougher schedule, lose 4 nfl players from last year's team, have a rash of injuries on defense, and should still be able to vastly improve our stats.Well news flash guy, we don't.
Also, our defense played well enough to beat northwestern. I don't know what game you watched, but when your quarterback kills every single drive with a pic then you aren't going to win. I'm assuming Prescott was too injured to play more than a series. I don't know.
I give Collins a C. He's average. He has less talent on defense than the offenses he faces in our losses. We looked like **** last week on all sides of the ball. If he continues to put out this product when we don't have half the defense on the injured reserve, id expect him to be fired.

campshelbydog842003 say "Chris Wilson was not good, and Collins looks to be similar"

ok "guy"...lol...im actually an advocate for a lighter schedule....again you fail to acknowledge the likely possibility that we have multiple nfl players on the defensive side of the ball already. if the defense allowed the opponents to outscore our offense, they in fact did not play well enough to win the game, by definition alone. tr didnt kill EVERY drive, otherwise we wouldnt have scored (im being facetious). like i said, they had 4 sizable drives that resulted in 20 points. we scored 20 points therefore, our defense played well enough for a draw. at worst, it goes into overtime and with our defense that cant get off the field on 3rd down and a kicker that cant kick worth a ****, they most likely would have won.

as far as looking like **** on both sides of the ball, there is something we can agree on. this soft read and react defense is our second biggest problem. with a **** for brains hc, a ***** dc, and a stanky-leg kicker, we have more problems than many want to concede. as far as the "C" goes, i think thats a bit high, but i still think its within an acceptable level. it shows that you are giving him the benefit of the doubt....based on my observations dating back to the gator bowl, that is not something i am willing to do, but i think its a reasonable assessment....unlike these nutjobs that are passing our B's as if they endorsed getting murdered by lsu and are cool with the 90 second collinsbury stall that occurred on the plains.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

We do have multiple nfl players on defense. Most of them happen to be younger guys though. The ones that sucked last year were older players. That's one of my points. I expect all of our highly rated young guys minus nick James to be great eventually, but very rarely do young defenses thrive in the sec. We aren't bama or Lsu (even Lsu is not good on defense this year with a young squad). I do expect us to put a better product on the field though. As to northwestern, the defense played well enough to win the game if the offense would have done its job. You knew what I meant and you were admittedly being a ********.

 

[Shamoan]

again, we have 7 upperclassmen that are 9 4*/5* guys on our 2-deep that are upperclassmen. thats not debatable...if you think that qualifies as having a young defense, then meh, thats your call, but not one i agree with. the d has 2 sr, 7 jrs, and 2 underclassmen that start in a system that is rampant with redshirts...additionally, we have an all-sec mlb....if thats not good enough for you, its your call what you chose to believe/not believe. its sad that every now and then, you see glimpses of an extremely disruptive defense, but because of a certain philosophy, we dont unleash it often. i havent admitted to being anything other than awesome...which happened just now. ********=/= facetious. its just a jocular nugget for you to digest.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

7 upperclassmen 4 and 5 star players in the 2 deep usually spell mediocre defense in the sec. Not to mention some of those guys have been suspended or injured for a majority of the year. Yea we have a lot of talent on defense compared to every other division in college football, but we play in the SEC West, not every other division. We need our entire coaching staff to recruit better, and then our schemes will probably magically be more effective.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

Also, we are currently ranked 5th or 6th in every Conference ranking on defense. The only teams ahead of us are teams that outrecruit us every year. The fact is the sec is a much better offensive league this year. We are doing better than over half of the conference so far and we've already played arguably the best offensive team in the conference.

 

[Shamoan]

well, wilson finished an entire season with a top 15 scoring defense in the nation. how did that work out for him? im pretty sure most here consider him incompetent....and deservedly so. if you are so pleased with being 6th, maybe you should reconsider your "C". certainly, we have a full picture of how we will finish this season (sarcasm).

 

[aTotal360]

Current rankings mean very little. Our stats looked pretty good after the 7-0 start last year. Just sayin...

 

[RocketDawg]

I think you replied to the wrong post, Shelby.

 

[Drebin]

He's been on campus for a year and a half. He hasn't been handing out water during that time.

He hasn't been playing in games, either. That's my point. Everyone is talking about him like he's going to provide an immediate impact. That would be great, but it isn't likely. True, others have had their hiccups, but they have game experience, something that Redmond doesn't have yet. Darius Slay is an NFL corner but he didn't come in here day one as a dominant DB. That comes with experience.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

I'm not pleased with where we are (6th in sec in defense or just the eyeball test in general). I don't think that Collins is great. I do think he is and will be considered better than wilson. I think that anyone who is up in arms about someone having that opinion either has an agenda or is an idiot.

 

[Shamoan]

you have exposed me. my agenda is improving on defense. guilty as charged. well done.

additionally, i applaud you for creating an account just so that you could spend the entirety of your posting history to this point focused on arguing about the degree of mediocrity of our new defensive coordinator. clearly, based on your deep engagement of other threads not concerning collins, you care a great deal about msu athletics. this board could use a guy like you**

in closing, i will leave you with a quote of someone that you will hold in high regard..."Wilson was not good, and Collins looks to be similar".

meditate on those words. i look forward to debating you to the degree of how ****** our cups smell.

 

[campshelbydog842003]

Yes, I created an account to stalk you. I've always loved post count smack. When you resort to that it means you just lost whatever you were arguing about. I've got 6 thousand posts on other boards. Can I cash it in for E cred over here you moron? Maybe one day you will learn the difference between similar and the exact same. Then again probably not. Enjoy drinking out of your *** flavored cup in section 334.

 

[Shamoan]

Yes, I created an account to stalk you. I've always loved post count smack. When you resort to that it means you just lost whatever you were arguing about. I've got 6 thousand posts on other boards. Can I cash it in for E cred over here you moron? Maybe one day you will learn the difference between similar and the exact same. Then again probably not. Enjoy drinking out of your *** flavored cup in section 334.

I wasn't suggesting you were stalking anyone, merely pointing out the fact that you have gone through the trouble of creating an account and making multiple argumentative posts only to agree with the largest point I was making. If you consider that a victory, by all means relish in it. You have capitulated to each and every point I have made. I have always heard the first sign of losing an argument is calling your opposition names...something you did around your 5th or 6th post...and not surprisingly here again. I have argued multiple times already that Collins and Wilson are ESSENTIALLY (which does not mean exactly, but similarly) the same....something you apparently agree with. Your frustration is showing bro....take a deep breath and bask in the wonderful seats that you apparently enjoy.