Get that **** out of here..

[57stratdawg]

Erased a 10 pt Spurs lead entering the 4th.

Wont be much of a game Thursday. Spurs are out manned, just a matter of when Miami wants to win. They'll want it on Thursday.

 

[MSUFORLIFE]

First of all

Lebron was pathetic this game. He almost lost the game single handedly in the 4th. Secondly, Ray Allen's shot to tie the game definitely should not have counted. You can't catch the ball, take two full steps back behind the line, and then shoot. That is called traveling. And Thirdly, Joey Crawford is a god awful ref. Allen should have never shot those two free throws and Manu was fouled on that last drive of his. I'm not bitching or blaming the refs. It was just a lack of following the rules of basketball that won it for the Heat

 

[Afro Dawg]

LeBron was pathetic tonight? You probably shouldn't watch basketball.

He had 32 points, a triple-double, and he made Parker's life miserable except for one 45-second stretch late. LeBron didn't play as well as an MVP should play in the final minute, but he was far from pathetic.

Good Lord.

 

[MStateFan22]

Triple doubles are so pathetic. Get over the non traveling call. In case you haven't noticed. They stopped calling that years ago. Ginobli took 3 or 4 steps himself when you claim he got fouled. They aren't going to blow the whistle late in the game like that. Ginobli put himself in a bad situation.

 

[esplanade91]

Lebron was pathetic this game. He almost lost the game single handedly in the 4th. Secondly, Ray Allen's shot to tie the game definitely should not have counted. You can't catch the ball, take two full steps back behind the line, and then shoot. That is called traveling. And Thirdly, Joey Crawford is a god awful ref. Allen should have never shot those two free throws and Manu was fouled on that last drive of his. I'm not bitching or blaming the refs. It was just a lack of following the rules of basketball that won it for the Heat

Dude, take a deep breath.

1st) That was an incredible 4th quarter by James. His 4th quarter is what won them that game.
2nd) It counted. That was as clean of a 3 as you're going to get. Ever.
3rd) That is the definition of bitching and blaming the ref.

Manu took about 8 steps so it's irrelevant if he got fouled or not.

Don't let your hatred of LeBron blind you from appreciating him as the greatest player in the world. You haven't seen a player like him before and won't again in your lifetime.

 

[MSUFORLIFE]

MJ was better than Lebron. MJ never won a game 7 because he never needed one. I do not hate the Heat. I hate the bias that they continually get from the media all the way to the refs in every game they play. It is ridiculous how many people have a **** fest about them.

 

[Optimus Prime 4]

Yeah, triple doubles are plastic stats

Wtf?

 

[olblue.sixpack]

Lebron was pathetic this game. He almost lost the game single handedly in the 4th. Secondly, Ray Allen's shot to tie the game definitely should not have counted. You can't catch the ball, take two full steps back behind the line, and then shoot. That is called traveling. And Thirdly, Joey Crawford is a god awful ref. Allen should have never shot those two free throws and Manu was fouled on that last drive of his. I'm not bitching or blaming the refs. It was just a lack of following the rules of basketball that won it for the Heat

Sounds like bitching to me - from a woman who just watched her first basketball game.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

He had 32 points, a triple-double, and he made Parker's life miserable except for one 45-second stretch late. LeBron didn't play as well as an MVP should play in the final minute, but he was far from pathetic. Good Lord.

Pretty big 3 he hit inside a minute. And that block on Duncan was clutch.

Spurs left too many points at the line down the stretch.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

MJ was better than Lebron. MJ never won a game 7 because he never needed one. I do not hate the Heat. I hate the bias that they continually get from the media all the way to the refs in every game they play. It is ridiculous how many people have a **** fest about them.

No, you hate the Heat.

I love it use the old "but he ain't MJ" line to convince themselves that KLJ sucks

 

[Afro Dawg]

Oh I agree.

Pretty big 3 he hit inside a minute. And that block on Duncan was clutch.

Spurs left too many points at the line down the stretch.

It was an MVP performance, particularly in the fourth. I think that block on Duncan came with about 6 minutes left.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

It was an MVP performance, particularly in the fourth. I think that block on Duncan came with about 6 minutes left.

Correct. The block occurred during the run that got them back in the game. To say that guy didn't play well in the fourth is proof that some people have no fear of being stupid.

 

[MSUDawg25]

MJ never won a game 7 because he never needed one.

Not that this should really be surprising, but this isn't true.

ETA: Nevermind, I'm guessing you meant only in the finals. Jordan had 3 game 7's and went 2-1.

 

[casinodog]

Wow??

Lebron was pathetic this game. He almost lost the game single handedly in the 4th. Secondly, Ray Allen's shot to tie the game definitely should not have counted. You can't catch the ball, take two full steps back behind the line, and then shoot. That is called traveling. And Thirdly, Joey Crawford is a god awful ref. Allen should have never shot those two free throws and Manu was fouled on that last drive of his. I'm not bitching or blaming the refs. It was just a lack of following the rules of basketball that won it for the Heat

Pathetic? Really?? You obviously don't watch basketball. Unreal. Triple double and clutch in the 4th quarter when his team was on the ropes. Now that I think about it, Michael Jordan was only borderline mediocre in the playoffs, so I guess your right. Haters gonna hate!

 

[esplanade91]

MJ was better than Lebron. MJ never won a game 7 because he never needed one. I do not hate the Heat. I hate the bias that they continually get from the media all the way to the refs in every game they play. It is ridiculous how many people have a **** fest about them.

That's irrelevant. MJ and LBJ are two different players who played/play different positions. MJ couldn't do the types of things LBJ can and vice versa. You'll never see another player with the entire package LeBron has though.

You can't honesty believe he was getting a bias over Tim Duncan either...

You sound like a Grizzlies fan.

 

[missouridawg]

That's irrelevant. MJ and LBJ are two different players who played/play different positions. MJ couldn't do the types of things LBJ can and vice versa. You'll never see another player with the entire package LeBron has though.

You can't honesty believe he was getting a bias over Tim Duncan either...

You sound like a Grizzlies fan.

Just out curiosity... what are some things that MJ did that LeBron can't do? I'm having trouble thinking of many.

 

[archdog]

The refs are letting them play. Did manu travel before the foul, yes. Did the bail out lebron when he had the spin move right into Duncan, yes. But if you rewatch the game, James gets fouled on almost every drive but because he flails around like a little girl he rarely gets the call. He flops because of all the noncalls. He also flops because he thinks if he misses a shot, then he was obviously fouled.

 

[mstateglfr]

MJ was better than Lebron. MJ never won a game 7 because he never needed one. I do not hate the Heat. I hate the bias that they continually get from the media all the way to the refs in every game they play. It is ridiculous how many people have a **** fest about them.

Its as if you dont understand this is a team game. You only mention a single player, like this is an individual sport.
Odd.

 

[Sutterkane]

You're right. LeBron is a much better flopper than Jordan was.

 

[57stratdawg]

While everyone else has pretty much roasted you for the obvious reason, I'd like to point out that LeBron's D on Tony Parker was great for the first three quarters. That's just as important as scoring points.

People hate LeBron. It doesn't matter. If he would have lost last night, it would have been all about LeChoke, LeBron can't get it done, etc. nevermind that he finished with a triple-double, and scored 16 points in the 4th. There is no other athlete in the world, and maybe the history of sports, that people are so willing to overlook the magnificent accomplishments in favor of a predetermined stereotype.

The real issue is, people know this is the last shot the NBA has at the guy. If they win this championship, and esepcially if Duncan/Pap retire, there isn't another team going to put up much of a fight against them until they decide to leave Miami.

 

[johnson86-1]

Elevate winning above all else in importance.

Physically, Lebron can do pretty much everything Jordan could do and because of his size, do somethings jordan couldn't on defense. Skills-wise, Lebron's post up game still isn't nearly as good as Jordan's (although I'm not sure it's that far behind where Jordan's was at the same age), but ht eother differences in skill are as much about different styles and Lebron being bigger. The only advantage Jordan has is mental, and it's a big one so far.

The only physical argument I would make for Jordan is that he put up his numbers when defensively, it was a different game because hand checking was allowed. But Lebron is big enough I think he could probably handle that. And Lebron has to deal with zone defenses. Not sure how big of a deal that is, but it is something teams couldnt' do against Jordan.

 

[seshomoru]

While everyone else has pretty much roasted you for the obvious reason, I'd like to point out that LeBron's D on Tony Parker was great for the first three quarters. That's just as important as scoring points.

People hate LeBron. It doesn't matter. If he would have lost last night, it would have been all about LeChoke, LeBron can't get it done, etc. nevermind that he finished with a triple-double, and scored 16 points in the 4th. There is no other athlete in the world, and maybe the history of sports, that people are so willing to overlook the magnificent accomplishments in favor of a predetermined stereotype.

The real issue is, people know this is the last shot the NBA has at the guy. If they win this championship, and esepcially if Duncan/Pap retire, there isn't another team going to put up much of a fight against them until they decide to leave Miami.

I think there is a chance they let D Wade stick around too long. His game has already broken down considerably. Even last night, Spoelstra kept him out until under four minutes to go, and that even seemed like a substitution that recognized Wades ego was gonna get murdered if he didn't get back in. That's the only way I see them tripping up in the future.

I'm actually surprised Pat Riley hasn't come back to coach the team yet. I figured he's jump on the bandwagon to get another coaching title and send Spoelstra the way of Van Gundy.

 

[Hanmudog]

Just out curiosity... what are some things that MJ did that LeBron can't do? I'm having trouble thinking of many.

From a stat line standpoint, LeBron puts up some amazing numbers unlike any player since Oscar Robertson. However, it is his mental approach that keep him from being better than Jordan. No way in hell Jordan would have stood around and been nearly invisible for three quarters in an elimination game.

I am not even a big Jordan fan but until LeBron comes out every night with that killer mentality he will always be second best (maybe even not that if he does not win a couple more titles).

 

[seshomoru]

This is my pet peeve with the entire Jordan/Lebron thing

From a stat line standpoint, LeBron puts up some amazing numbers unlike any player since Oscar Robertson. However, it is his mental approach that keep him from being better than Jordan. No way in hell Jordan would have stood around and been nearly invisible for three quarters in an elimination game.

I am not even a big Jordan fan but until LeBron comes out every night with that killer mentality he will always be second best (maybe even not that if he does not win a couple more titles).

Jordan did have bad games. He had average games. He had good games. And he had transcendent games. It was so long ago that we only remember and only see highlights of his transcendent games. Hell, we usually only get a few second clips of those moments and we just morph that into this myth that they guy always scored 40+ and elevated all the guys around him to elite level players, forgetting that Pippen is one of the 50 best players ever, and the Worm was actually an incredible player, not just a sideshow rebounder. That he played with one of the first, and still one of the best ever, foreign players in Kukoc.

Lebron has bad games. He has average games. He has good games. And he's had transcendent games. Problem is, he's playing now. So, on a nightly basis, we see the highlights or lowlights of what he has done. We don't just see the times he scores 29 of his teams last 30 points in route to taking a Cleveland team to the finals that started James, Larry Hughes, Ilgauskus, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow/Daniel Gibson/Sasha Pavolovic. We also see the times he had a late turnover and it gets played and analyzed over and over and over and over.

So basically, we hold Jordan up to this myth that he never turned it over, never missed a shot in the 4th, never let his man score, and turned all his team mates from high school backups into NBA Champs. It's an untrue version of a guy so revered as a legend that we don't want a new guy to come along and change our minds. With the new guy, some of his failures are so recent that we don't let ourselves enjoy it when he does something amazing because we love to remind ourselves of when he didn't do something amazing.

The new guy is 17ing ridiculous. Get over the Jordan crap.

 

[esplanade91]

While everyone else has pretty much roasted you for the obvious reason, I'd like to point out that LeBron's D on Tony Parker was great for the first three quarters. That's just as important as scoring points.

People hate LeBron. It doesn't matter. If he would have lost last night, it would have been all about LeChoke, LeBron can't get it done, etc. nevermind that he finished with a triple-double, and scored 16 points in the 4th. There is no other athlete in the world, and maybe the history of sports, that people are so willing to overlook the magnificent accomplishments in favor of a predetermined stereotype.

The real issue is, people know this is the last shot the NBA has at the guy. If they win this championship, and esepcially if Duncan/Pap retire, there isn't another team going to put up much of a fight against them until they decide to leave Miami.

Have to disagree on the last part. People are so blinded by their hate of LeBron and him "taking his talents to South Beach" that they don't want to see how the Heat roster isn't very good. Haslam, Bird Man, Mike Miller, Cole, and Chalmers have no business getting the minutes they're getting in the playoffs.

D. Wade's knees make my grandmother's look NBA quality.

Ray Allen is a shell of his former self, and that's fine because he doesn't make much and he's a great veteran presence on a young team. He's a situational guy, I just don't like how people bring him up when arguing this is the best roster... He's not Ray Allen from Milwaukee or Boston.

Bosh was a great FA pick up but people try to act like he's the elite F/C of the NBA. Not even close.

James has never had a roster anywhere near Jordan's and basically takes an 8 seed to the finals every single year.

As far as skills Jordan had that LBJ doesn't have, I think Jordan was a better individual scorer. No one can beat LeBron around the basket but I think he's a slightly above average jump shooter. He's improved that this year though.

 

[Hanmudog]

So long ago? 15 years? Maybe a long time in dog years. I grew up watching Kareem, Dr. J, Magic, Bird, etc. and as much as I don't really care for Jordan, he is the best ever. I am a huge Kobe fan and I admit that LeBron is the better player but he ain't and never will be Jordan.

Sure Jordan had some of nights but he never had "no show" nights like LeBron does from time to time in the playoffs.

If you had two completely even teams and your fifth starter could be Jordan or James and you had to play one game for a title, who do you think most people would pick?

 

[KurtRambis4]

I think

one area where MJ excels over LB is in the fact that he would answer, if punched in the mouth. If you got MJ against the ropes, he'd come out and score 40 points. However, LJ seems to just vanish when he is in the same situation.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

Jordan did have bad games. He had average games. He had good games. And he had transcendent games. It was so long ago that we only remember and only see highlights of his transcendent games. Hell, we usually only get a few second clips of those moments and we just morph that into this myth that they guy always scored 40+ and elevated all the guys around him to elite level players, forgetting that Pippen is one of the 50 best players ever, and the Worm was actually an incredible player, not just a sideshow rebounder. That he played with one of the first, and still one of the best ever, foreign players in Kukoc.

Lebron has bad games. He has average games. He has good games. And he's had transcendent games. Problem is, he's playing now. So, on a nightly basis, we see the highlights or lowlights of what he has done. We don't just see the times he scores 29 of his teams last 30 points in route to taking a Cleveland team to the finals that started James, Larry Hughes, Ilgauskus, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow/Daniel Gibson/Sasha Pavolovic. We also see the times he had a late turnover and it gets played and analyzed over and over and over and over.

So basically, we hold Jordan up to this myth that he never turned it over, never missed a shot in the 4th, never let his man score, and turned all his team mates from high school backups into NBA Champs. It's an untrue version of a guy so revered as a legend that we don't want a new guy to come along and change our minds. With the new guy, some of his failures are so recent that we don't let ourselves enjoy it when he does something amazing because we love to remind ourselves of when he didn't do something amazing.

The new guy is 17ing ridiculous. Get over the Jordan crap.

Best post in the thread.

Some people would have you think that Jordan went balls to the wall for 48 minutes a hundred times a year. Nobody can - or ever will - do that.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

So long ago? 15 years? Maybe a long time in dog years. I grew up watching Kareem, Dr. J, Magic, Bird, etc. and as much as I don't really care for Jordan, he is the best ever. I am a huge Kobe fan and I admit that LeBron is the better player but he ain't and never will be Jordan.

Sure Jordan had some of nights but he never had "no show" nights like LeBron does from time to time in the playoffs.

If you had two completely even teams and your fifth starter could be Jordan or James and you had to play one game for a title, who do you think most people would pick?

I would go with James. Jordan is nothing more than a washed up minor league baseball player these days pretending to be a NBA GM.

 

[57stratdawg]

Jordan did have bad games. He had average games. He had good games. And he had transcendent games. It was so long ago that we only remember and only see highlights of his transcendent games. Hell, we usually only get a few second clips of those moments and we just morph that into this myth that they guy always scored 40+ and elevated all the guys around him to elite level players, forgetting that Pippen is one of the 50 best players ever, and the Worm was actually an incredible player, not just a sideshow rebounder. That he played with one of the first, and still one of the best ever, foreign players in Kukoc.

Lebron has bad games. He has average games. He has good games. And he's had transcendent games. Problem is, he's playing now. So, on a nightly basis, we see the highlights or lowlights of what he has done. We don't just see the times he scores 29 of his teams last 30 points in route to taking a Cleveland team to the finals that started James, Larry Hughes, Ilgauskus, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow/Daniel Gibson/Sasha Pavolovic. We also see the times he had a late turnover and it gets played and analyzed over and over and over and over.

So basically, we hold Jordan up to this myth that he never turned it over, never missed a shot in the 4th, never let his man score, and turned all his team mates from high school backups into NBA Champs. It's an untrue version of a guy so revered as a legend that we don't want a new guy to come along and change our minds. With the new guy, some of his failures are so recent that we don't let ourselves enjoy it when he does something amazing because we love to remind ourselves of when he didn't do something amazing.

The new guy is 17ing ridiculous. Get over the Jordan crap.

Amen. Plus, let's not forget that the guy that coached Jordan was pretty good. Remember, he went on to win 5 more titles after Jordan left.

 

[Hanmudog]

Have to disagree on the last part. People are so blinded by their hate of LeBron and him "taking his talents to South Beach" that they don't want to see how the Heat roster isn't very good. Haslam, Bird Man, Mike Miller, Cole, and Chalmers have no business getting the minutes they're getting in the playoffs.

D. Wade's knees make my grandmother's look NBA quality.

Ray Allen is a shell of his former self, and that's fine because he doesn't make much and he's a great veteran presence on a young team. He's a situational guy, I just don't like how people bring him up when arguing this is the best roster... He's not Ray Allen from Milwaukee or Boston.

Bosh was a great FA pick up but people try to act like he's the elite F/C of the NBA. Not even close.

James has never had a roster anywhere near Jordan's and basically takes an 8 seed to the finals every single year.

As far as skills Jordan had that LBJ doesn't have, I think Jordan was a better individual scorer. No one can beat LeBron around the basket but I think he's a slightly above average jump shooter. He's improved that this year though.

Holy crap, an 8 seed? Really? The East is horrible. Even without LeBron the Heat would have been no worse than a 4 or 5 seed. The Heat also benefitted from injuries this year. I don't know that they would have beaten Chicago if Deng. Heinrich, and Rose were healthy. Not to mention Danny Granger and Rajon Rondo being out for the Pacers and Celtics.

Somehow I don't think guys on a team full of scrubs would predict 7 titles in their future.

LeBron did one hell of a job getting the Cavaliers to the Finals but getting the Heat to the Finals was expected.

 

[mstateglfr]

So long ago? 15 years? Maybe a long time in dog years. I grew up watching Kareem, Dr. J, Magic, Bird, etc. and as much as I don't really care for Jordan, he is the best ever. I am a huge Kobe fan and I admit that LeBron is the better player but he ain't and never will be Jordan.

Sure Jordan had some of nights but he never had "no show" nights like LeBron does from time to time in the playoffs.

If you had two completely even teams and your fifth starter could be Jordan or James and you had to play one game for a title, who do you think most people would pick?

Its not just 15 years ago, its 15-22 years ago. And with the average age of this board probably around 35, that means a massive group was under 20yo and many were under 10 when he was lighting everyone up.
I am 32, grew up in the Chicago burbs, followed the Bulls, went to games, and basically remember Jordan's career thru the lens of replayed game footage. If I had access to watch all their games on local TV, was surrounded by all the media then, and I remember his play thru highlights, then I would think most everyone else is the same.

It is a long time ago- long enough for legend status to take over and for his career to be summed up by highlights instead of game by game details. He is known for games like when he was sick as a dog and beat Utah, instead of being known for jacking up 26 shots and only making 9 in a loss to Utah.

Media wasnt the same in Jordan's day. Everything he did or didnt do on the court wasnt sent out to the world the moment it happened. Everything he did or didnt do wasnt overanalyzed globally on multiple channels for the entire next day or two. Everything he did or didnt do wasnt broadcast by fans and argued over on message boards until it was beaten dead like a horse.

LeBron's play is micro-scrutinized. His game is broken down not into quarters, but actual individual plays and critiqued. Each play on offense and defense is discussed and questioned for days after the game is finished.

That just didnt happen to Jordan, and the lack of media coverage compared to now helped Jordan's accomplishments stand out more while masking his shortcomings.



I may get ripped on for this- Jordan would have been a totally different player if the current media and technology existed in his day. His personal life would have been uncovered and better documented, which would have made him a different player. His play on the court and how he handled himself on the court would have been better documented and for sure scrutinized every single day.

 

[Hanmudog]

Best post in the thread.

Some people would have you think that Jordan went balls to the wall for 48 minutes a hundred times a year. Nobody can - or ever will - do that.

Could it not also be said that some people forget how good Jordan was and have the benefit of watching LeBron right now?

 

[seshomoru]

Well congratulations on watching so much basketball your entire life and remembering nearly all of it. Most people haven't. Pretty amazing since in the early 80s, CBS was broadcasting less than 10 games per year and ESPN and USA (not nearly as widely distributed) broadcast 40. Not even all the playoff games were on TV. I think TBS stepped in and bought the rights to 55 games in 1985 or something. It wasn't until the 90s, and the Jordan era, that you really had access to a bunch of games. Even then, we weren't nearly as saturated with highlights and the gazillion sports only channels. I pretty much remember NBA Inside Stuff, the NBA on NBC, and the Bulls on WGN.

Lets not forget Jordan and James both went to their first playoffs at the age of 21. Jordan didn't advance to the second round until his 4th trip. Lebron advanced to the second round on his first trip. The 16 team format was already in place, but the first round was best of 5 for Jordan. Not that it mattered. Jordan only won one playoff game his first three trips. Jordan finally advanced to the Conference Finals in 89 & 90, at the age of 25 & 26. In the final three straight losses in 89 he tossed in 23, 18, and then a more Jordan like 32. Problem is the 8 turnovers he had in the final game. Lebron took that crappy Cleveland team to the Finals at the age of 22. It was really his play in the four straight wins over Detroit in the Conference finals that were the story, but then they were swept by a much, much, much better Spurs team.

The biggest mark on Lebron is the first time he went to the Finals with the Heat (still a year before Jordan ever got to his first), he had a terrible series against Dallas. The year both Jordan and James won their first (age 27 for each), their stats are remarkably similar, with Jordan scoring about 3 points more per game. This has been a strange series for Lebron and the Heat. He only came out with 18, 17, & 15. But that included a 19 point win and a 36 point loss. He followed the 36 point loss with 33, 25, and 32 (including that incredible 4th quarter last night). Jordan's second finals agains Portland was far more consistent and much higher scoring.

Here's the rub. Jordan is gone. His body of work built and deified by nostalgic basketball fans. However, these fans don't seem capable of letting Lebron build his body of work and waiting to compare it when it's all said and done. They are so set on giving a final answer when Lebron is at the exact same point in his career that Jordan was when he won his second title. They are going to miss one of the most amazing NBA careers ever if all they try to do is drag it down off Mike's pedestal.

 

[Hanmudog]

Come on Sesh. We bought one of those gigantic satellite dishes back in 1985 and we had channels that were showed every single Laker and Celtic game as well as a couple that showed the old Washington Bullets and Philadelphia 76ers. So I would say on average I watched 100-120 games a year on TV.

 

[seshomoru]

No.

Jordan kept up the resurgence of the NBA that the Celts and Lakers built, was the best scorer anyone had seen to that point, blew up the marketability of the league (shoes, gatorade, etc.), and honestly probably took the game global and is a reason so many foreign countries love the game now.

However, I just recognize that Lebron is being compared to an even more deified version of Jordan than there actually was. No matter what James does, perception will always be that Jordan did it better because people have their minds made up already.